Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

Stabshauptmann · 07-08-2013 05:14PM

So many posts with the same argument: dublin bus provides a vital public service.
Yes, yes it does.

But wtf does that have to do with paying virtually unskilled labour 46k + perks per annum?

In fact the options are pay drivers a realistic wage or cut back on services to the community; I'll take the former please!

Foxtrol · 07-08-2013 06:14PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

I didn't say any given workers union represents the public. If the vast majority of the public is made up of workers, the workers interests are in the publics interest - thus if you have enough unions to represent a wide enough portion of the workforce (not just narrow portions like we have now), then there is no reason they can not co-operate to act in the interests of the public, as they have done before.

So you think if there were enough people in other unions then there would have been co-operation over the last few days and the drivers unions would have seen sense and not affected all the members of the public like they did? Or, more likely, by co-operation between unions you mean that there’d be constant threats of all out strikes over every small, necessary reduction in costs? If you think the latter then I’m worried about your mental health if you think an economy could possibly function with that.

bodice ripper · 07-08-2013 06:39PM

A colleague just told me that over here, when the bus drivers went on strike they still worked, they just didn't take any money for travel. excellent

end of the road · 07-08-2013 06:43PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

But wtf does that have to do with paying virtually unskilled labour 46k + perks per annum?

their not being payed 46 k, its 36 k including perks and overtime, and their not unskilled, driving a large vehicle with a large number of people onboard is a massively skilled job that any old joe sope couldn't do

cdebru · 07-08-2013 06:45PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

A colleague just told me that over here, when the bus drivers went on strike they still worked, they just didn't take any money for travel. excellent

Can't do that here DB threatened the trade unions they would sue the unions to recoup any money lost if they did that again.

cdebru · 07-08-2013 06:46PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you think if there were enough people in other unions then there would have been co-operation over the last few days and the drivers unions would have seen sense and not affected all the members of the public like they did? Or, more likely, by co-operation between unions you mean that there’d be constant threats of all out strikes over every small, necessary reduction in costs? If you think the latter then I’m worried about your mental health if you think an economy could possibly function with that.

lol you think we have a functioning economy now ???

cdebru · 07-08-2013 06:48PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

So many posts with the same argument: dublin bus provides a vital public service.
Yes, yes it does.

But wtf does that have to do with paying virtually unskilled labour 46k + perks per annum?

In fact the options are pay drivers a realistic wage or cut back on services to the community; I'll take the former please!

What is a realistic wage ?

46k is not a drivers wage repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it true.

Gatling · 07-08-2013 06:49PM

end of the road wrote: »

their not being payed 46 k, its 36 k including perks and overtime, and their not unskilled, driving a large vehicle with a large number of people onboard is a massively skilled job that any old joe sope couldn't do

But bus drivers are ordinary joes/Jane's that have a driver's licence ,a bus licence and pass a written exam

There no super special qualifications involved

cdebru · 07-08-2013 06:57PM

jman0war wrote: »

We just witnessed a private members club (union)use their position to obstruct and sabotage the provision of a public service (dublin bus) to protect their pay packets which by any stretch seems pretty generous (overtime rates at 2.5??) in a country with 400k unemployed.

And the armchair "socialists" are here defending this carry on?

overtime rates at 2.5 ??? really, monday to saturday overtime is 1.5 which is pretty standard it would be reduced to 1.25 but don't let the facts get in the way.

cdebru · 07-08-2013 06:58PM

Gatling wrote: »

But bus drivers are ordinary joes/Jane's that have a driver's licence ,a bus licence and pass a written exam

There no super special qualifications involved

so you keep telling us, it is starting to sound like inferiority what happened ?

Eoin · 07-08-2013 07:06PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

I didn't say any given workers union represents the public. If the vast majority of the public is made up of workers, the workers interests are in the publics interest - thus if you have enough unions to represent a wide enough portion of the workforce (not just narrow portions like we have now), then there is no reason they can not co-operate to act in the interests of the public, as they have done before.

No, the public interest is broader than just employment issues. And there's the fact that a lot of workers do NOT support the workers in this dispute.

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you have that issue with specific unions, you just need more diverse unions.

No you don't. It's not for workers' unions to look at non-employment issues. There will be a conflict of interests somewhere. It's simply not their place, and given that they all share, by their very nature, the same political position, it makes no sense whatsoever for them to be the voice of the people on topics that are not related to employment. It's a ludicrous suggestion.

Listen - I understand the strike; it's a members' club doing what their fees require them to do. I and many others don't agree with it, but that's a different thing. But unions are not for all workers, and they are certainly not who a lot of people want representing them on non-employment issues.

Please stop trying to dress this up as something that's good for the public. It's not. It's an inherently self-serving action that is demonstrably not in the public interest. Let's at least be honest here.

Gatling · 07-08-2013 07:08PM

Typical bus driver over hyping themselfs

Foxtrol · 07-08-2013 07:13PM

cdebru wrote: »

lol you think we have a functioning economy now ???

Well it’s much more functioning than the weekly national strike utopia that would have happened over the last few years if everyone was in co-operating unions like the OP was claiming was the ideal.

I think I’m still waiting on your explanation from yesterday as to why the drivers/unions belief that an archaic 15 minute travel time payment is a legitimate thing to fight/strike to keep in this day and age? It may not have been you who I asked but seeing as there seems to be a few recent posters who appear to have a deep knowledge of drivers terms and conditions it would be nice to hear.

Anyone care to explain how that isn’t massively out of touch?

Foxtrol · 07-08-2013 07:14PM

cdebru wrote: »

overtime rates at 2.5 ??? really, monday to saturday overtime is 1.5 which is pretty standard it would be reduced to 1.25 but don't let the facts get in the way.

Overtime at 3 times for public holidays??

Stabshauptmann · 07-08-2013 08:29PM

end of the road wrote: »

their not being payed 46 k, its 36 k including perks and overtime, and their not unskilled, driving a large vehicle with a large number of people onboard is a massively skilled job that any old joe sope couldn't do

I've given the math for 46k and linked to two sources, Dublin Bus published accounts and Public Policy website. Dublin Bus pays its circa 3.5K employees on average 46K + defined benefit pension.

Where are you getting 36k from?

Driving a large vehicle is not a "massively skilled job". I'm sorry, but its not. It is a skill, but not a particularly difficult one.

end of the road · 07-08-2013 08:45PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Driving a large vehicle is not a "massively skilled job". I'm sorry, but its not. It is a skill, but not a particularly difficult one.

yes its a massively skilled and very difficult job which not everyone can do

Almaviva · 07-08-2013 08:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

driving a large vehicle with a large number of people onboard is a massively skilled job that any old joe sope couldn't do

Its a pretty low skilled one. I think any old Joe Soap could do it. Not really sure who wouldnt be up to it to be honest.

Stabshauptmann · 07-08-2013 09:04PM

end of the road wrote: »

yes its a massively skilled and very difficult job which not everyone can do

Listen, I dont want to take away from it. It is a skill I currently do not have.
All the facts so far indicate that a Dublin Bus driver earns 46k p/a. Until some evidence is given to the contrary thats what I will believe.
The average income in this country at present is about 36k.
For a driver to deserve a wage above that imo they must have a skill that a huge percentage of the population could not do i.e. be massively skilled.

I'll keep an open mind. To convince me,tell me about caliber of the trainee, the training they undergo and pass rates on these tests

Almaviva · 07-08-2013 09:11PM

Its about a basic €22000 a year job, with about another 5k-8k on average for working early, late, weekends, and holidays. So 30k tops. Anything above that and no wonder routes are loosing money, and/or the governement is giving them too much taxpayers money.

Phoebas · 07-08-2013 09:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

yes its a massively skilled and very difficult job which not everyone can do

How many years of full time training do the drivers undergo before one can drive a Dublin bus?

cdebru · 07-08-2013 09:16PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Listen, I dont want to take away from it. It is a skill I currently do not have.
All the facts so far indicate that a Dublin Bus driver earns 46k p/a. Until some evidence is given to the contrary thats what I will believe.
The average income in this country at present is about 36k.
For a driver to deserve a wage above that imo they must have a skill that a huge percentage of the population could not do i.e. be massively skilled.

I'll keep an open mind. To convince me,tell me about caliber of the trainee, the training they undergo and pass rates on these tests

All what facts indicate it ? can you show where you got these facts ?

Stabshauptmann · 07-08-2013 09:19PM

cdebru wrote: »

All what facts indicate it ? can you show where you got these facts ?

Search the thread by user.

cdebru · 07-08-2013 09:20PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Its about a basic €22000 a year job, with about another 5k-8k on average for working early, late, weekends, and holidays. So 30k tops. Anything above that and no wonder routes are loosing money, and/or the governement is giving them too much taxpayers money.

lol A married person with 4 children would get 22,500 on the dole plus all the other benefits medical card, back to school allowance, rent allowance etc etc,

and you think someone out working for a living should get a basic salary that would be less than the dole.

Seriously you are funny.

cdebru · 07-08-2013 09:22PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Search the thread by user.

Oh you got your facts from here, well you obviously put a lot of effort into it then no wonder you want to stick to it.

cdebru · 07-08-2013 09:23PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Its a pretty low skilled one. I think any old Joe Soap could do it. Not really sure who wouldnt be up to it to be honest.

You should try it see how easy it is, otherwise you are talking out of your.....

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 07-08-2013 09:24PM

cdebru wrote: »

lol A married person with 4 children would get 22,500 on the dole plus all the other benefits medical card, back to school allowance, rent allowance etc etc,

and you think someone out working for a living should get a basic salary that would be less than the dole.

Seriously you are funny.

Thank you for making the arguement in favour of drastically cutting the dole.
Much appreciated

bodice ripper · 07-08-2013 09:25PM

cdebru wrote: »

You should try it see how easy it is, otherwise you are talking out of your.....

There are LOADS of people ready to try, maybe we should try some of them instead...

Almaviva · 07-08-2013 09:26PM

cdebru wrote: »

lol A married person with 4 children would get 22,500 on the dole plus all the other benefits medical card, back to school allowance, rent allowance etc etc,

and you think someone out working for a living should get a basic salary that would be less than the dole.

Seriously you are funny.

You've probably hit the nub of the problem and unrealistic wage expectation right there.

Stabshauptmann · 07-08-2013 09:27PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Its about a basic €22000 a year job, with about another 5k-8k on average for working early, late, weekends, and holidays. So 30k tops. Anything above that and no wonder routes are loosing money, and/or the governement is giving them too much taxpayers money.

Thank you; I just want to cross reference that and see if it tots. Approx how many bus drivers are there?

cdebru · 07-08-2013 09:27PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I've given the math for 46k and linked to two sources, Dublin Bus published accounts and Public Policy website. Dublin Bus pays its circa 3.5K employees on average 46K + defined benefit pension.

Where are you getting 36k from?

Driving a large vehicle is not a "massively skilled job". I'm sorry, but its not. It is a skill, but not a particularly difficult one.

3236 employees actually and the average includes managers, supervisors, and 10 senior managers that are earning over 100k, now it doesn't take a chimpanzee to understand that dividing the wages bill by the number of employees does not give you a drivers salary when a third of the employees are not bus drivers.

33k is the basic pay shift allowances bring it to about 38.5k

Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

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