Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

bumper234

listermint wrote: »

Because just like the government, the heads of the unions have been bought over head in the through. The average worker is as badly informed as you.

Grass roots takeover of the unions is what is required. The upper management of these groups are a disgrace. And far removed from what they were created for.

A Microcosm of our political system if you will.


Stop blaming the workers blame the people with their hands in everyones pockets.

So now you say trust the unions even though you admit the union leaders are bent and have been bought off? So who do we trust to run the unions and start your revolution?

listermint

bumper234 wrote: »

So now you say trust the unions even though you admit the union leaders are bent and have been bought off? So who do we trust to run the unions and start your revolution?

Where in the jaysus did i say trust unions ?


Where ? or is this a case were because youve found some points that you disagree with from me i.e. global wealth redistribution. That you make stuff up that i didnt say ?


As i said all along dont blame workers, because its ridiculous.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

August 5, 1981, Ronald Reagan fired 11,000 air traffic controllers who were on strike.

for which he should have been jailed for life, or executed (seeing as the US are willing to use it for any old thing whenever it suits them)

hmmm wrote: »

None of those fired were allowed re-apply for their jobs.

well what would you expect from vermin like Ronald Reagan? failures like him and maggie thatcher are gone for now at least, good riddens

hmmm wrote: »

There was massive disruption for a few months while new replacements were trained

the airline industry should have done whatever they could to punish or remove Ronald Reagan from office for causing them months of disruption when he could have given the workers the little they were looking for, 11000 people is very little though in terms of the US and the 80s were a different time where their were less flights, doubtful it could be done now thankfully.

hmmm wrote: »

from that point on no public sector union has ever held the public to ransom in the US.

they never did hold anybody to ransom, people trot that out as they can't be bothered to find another way to get around any disruption

hmmm wrote: »

I wish we had a government which stood up for the rest of us sometimes.

sacking vital workers isn't standing up for people

ardle1

I don't agree with the strike,at least not for a service like this, Dublin Bus is far to Important to Dublin and Ireland as a whole, never mind all the decent hard working people who rely on that particular service to get to their 'hard come by'and probably less paying though fully appreciated jobs.

KyussBishop

bumper234 wrote: »

So where have the unions been for the last 8 years? Why have they not "bought the country to a standstill" when thousands lost their jobs? When dole was cut? When billions was given away? Why act now? Because NOW it's not the lower paid being hit it's people on higher wages and NOW they are getting scared. If the unions cared they would have acted a LONG time ago.

If you want unions to protect private sector jobs, go out and unionize in the private sector. Unions represent the workers they are made up of, which in this case is public sector workers who have managed to negotiate manageable deals up to now.

If you want more a more powerful union movement that can affect political change, protecting both the private sector and public sector, then start unionizing in your private sector jobs as well, or else you have no lobbying power or voice beyond your vote once every 4-5 years.

KyussBishop

HurtLocker wrote: »

You might not have noticed but we the largest party in the country is centre right wing. But anyway dont let that stop you from pulling a massive stimulus out of thin air/Europe *cough* other people's pockets*cough* and make all this go away. So simple, Europe shall give us a stimulus. Lets ignore the deficits and when the stimulus ends and we are left with a bigger budget hole... they can give us another stimulus. Feck deficits we live on cloud 9.

The government still pays out more than it receives. The pole above clearly shows the majority have no interest to continue funding Dublin Bus drivers wages to such an extent. If it were a private company (I wish) it would either have to cut back or shut down.


"Socialists, when they give you a jacket its more than likely been taken off someone elses back."

Well you know what DB drivers. If you think you can get a better wage than whats being offered somewhere else, just leave and take it. Oh wait they cancelled their childish tantrum after a 2 days. I wonder why.

If you think stimulus has to come out of 'other peoples pockets', you are ignorant of economics and are bolstering the child-like austerity moral narrative.

Europe is more than capable of collectively providing sustainable stimulus, to the whole of Europe, which the most basic of research online could tell you.
Just one example, of a complete plan for doing this, from one of the more well-renowned economists writing about the Euro crisis:
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/euro-crisis/modest-proposal/

In the usual ignorance though, you will not even bother looking at that, just desire to parrot the same nonsense.

Foxtrol

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you want unions to protect private sector jobs, go out and unionize in the private sector. Unions represent the workers they are made up of, which in this case is public sector workers who have managed to negotiate manageable deals up to now.

If you want more a more powerful union movement that can affect political change, protecting both the private sector and public sector, then start unionizing in your private sector jobs as well, or else you have no lobbying power or voice beyond your vote once every 4-5 years.

Watch this space, the company will give a small concession and the unions/drivers will cave – we’ve seen it tactic all the public sector posturing and Bus Eireann dispute. Unions have to show they’ve some power left but don’t have the power or balls for a fight and this sort of childishness is not endearing themselves to the private sector or the country at large.

Think those who work in the private sector are probably happy enough to keep their multi-national investment and jobs, as multi-nationals having to deal with the jokers in charge of unions, living in la la land with their demands are one sure way to make them run for the door.

Foxtrol

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you think stimulus has to come out of 'other peoples pockets', you are ignorant of economics and are bolstering the child-like austerity moral narrative.

Europe is more than capable of collectively providing sustainable stimulus, to the whole of Europe, which the most basic of research online could tell you.
Just one example, of a complete plan for doing this, from one of the more well-renowned economists writing about the Euro crisis:
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/euro-crisis/modest-proposal/

In the usual ignorance though, you will not even bother looking at that, just desire to parrot the same nonsense.

Can you please explain how this is anyway on topic, has any relation to the DB issue and how any stimulus could possibly reduce the shortfall the company is making due to its massive wage bill?

cdebru

bumper234 wrote: »

Lol unions.

I worked in construction and u know when i heard from my union rep? When my payments stopped going into their account. You know what they did when i lost my job? **** all. So take your union ****e and stick it cos there is NO WAY they would ever get a penny from me again.

So what did you expect ?

You think you lost your job in construction because of your union ? you are blaming the wrong people what happened in construction is the greed of some people led this country to be ruined.

The construction unions were weak because the demand for construction workers made people think they didn't need any union and they were happy to go off and become their own sub contractor etc.

The union is only as strong as its membership.

KyussBishop

Foxtrol wrote: »

Can you please explain how this is anyway on topic, has any relation to the DB issue and how any stimulus could possibly reduce the shortfall the company is making due to its massive wage bill?

If you want to claim that's not on topic, then your austerity 'cuts are inevitable' nonsense (which my arguments debunk) is not on topic either.

listermint

Foxtrol wrote: »

Can you please explain how this is anyway on topic, has any relation to the DB issue and how any stimulus could possibly reduce the shortfall the company is making due to its massive wage bill?

Its all on topic thats the point. Your hand picking comments from fairly reasonable posters and sensationalising them.


Do you work for the Indo? Because you come across as if you follow their mantra.

listermint

KyussBishop wrote: »

Most people already have an inkling that the austerity narrative is nonsense, but stay away from economic topics because it's so mired in ideology and bullshít, designed to muddy debate and drive people away from learning about it.

Bollocks like the above is exactly what people avoid, because it's easy for them to see how quick economic discussions turn into crap and trench warfare - avoiding such discussion is a sensible choice in favour of sanity and not wasting your time, yet it also means the entire discussion is successfully shut down everywhere you look online and in print/media, and as a result people in general have no clue about the massive gaping flaws in economic theory and the running of economies today, and thus are successfully deterred from learning the solutions (which are not actually complicated, just smeared to death by ideologues).


All the solutions needed for ending the crisis are already known from a long time ago (from the last comparably massive crisis 80 years ago in fact), and what remains is purely politics, ideology and propaganda, spouted largely by useful-idiots following economically right-wing dogma.

There is a reason they almost universally drop to bullshít methods of argument, involving primarily straw-men, imaginary Communist-bashing, public sector vs private sector nonsense and just...any kind of fallacious form of argument you can think of: None of them want an honest argument, they are there to muddy debate - many of them (being 'useful-idiots') don't even see it either.
Until more people routinely call them out on it, there will be zero change and discussion will successfully be suppressed pretty much everywhere - it is an extremely successful way to disempower people, by preventing them from even learning about the topic.

Just thought this could be re-read by those that didnt actually read it properly the first time.

seamus

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you want more a more powerful union movement that can affect political change, protecting both the private sector and public sector, then start unionizing in your private sector jobs as well, or else you have no lobbying power or voice beyond your vote once every 4-5 years.

This isn't the 70s. The guys heading up these unions share 18 holes, pints and strippers with our elected officials. They don't sit around negotiating better terms for their members, only better terms for themselves. If you think a modern union has any power to effect change or indeed any will to effect change, you're kidding yourself.

The unions in this country have gone the same way that all unions eventually do - they've become little fiefdoms for a handful of lazy and corrupt individuals who talk bland pleasantries and empty words to keep their members happy.

Dyr

seamus wrote: »

This isn't the 70s. The guys heading up these unions share 18 holes, pints and strippers with our elected officials. They don't sit around negotiating better terms for their members, only better terms for themselves. If you think a modern union has any power to effect change or indeed any will to effect change, you're kidding yourself.

The unions in this country have gone the same way that all unions eventually do - they've become little fiefdoms for a handful of lazy and corrupt individuals who talk bland pleasantries and empty words to keep their members happy.

Thats funny the head of the union I'm in was a member of a party that is never going to get near the dail, never mind gubbermint. I obviously missed the invites to the golf and strippers too

Dyr

seamus wrote: »

This isn't the 70s. The guys heading up these unions share 18 holes, pints and strippers with our elected officials. They don't sit around negotiating better terms for their members, only better terms for themselves. If you think a modern union has any power to effect change or indeed any will to effect change, you're kidding yourself.

The unions in this country have gone the same way that all unions eventually do - they've become little fiefdoms for a handful of lazy and corrupt individuals who talk bland pleasantries and empty words to keep their members happy.

Btw you mentioned something about not affecting change

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/former-waterford-crystal-workers-win-landmark-ecj-battle-over-pension-losses-29221584.html

Do carry on

cdebru

listermint wrote: »

The same could be said about the vitriol your spouting, Its not average workers who caused this or profitted from this. Why people are so happy to see others ground into the ground is beyond this.

Maybe if everybodys ire was properly directed 5 years ago we wouldnt have this noose around all our necks today.

Locked into this because the sheep are far to easy to point fingers at each other than the correct individuals and thiefs.

YOUR money has been stolen and not by bus drivers

People are angry and they still let the same mongs guide them as to who they should be angry with. The same gob****es that convinced them property never went down in value, or the fundamentals of the economy were sound, that 20% inflation per year in property was not a bubble, that it would be a soft landing, that Ireland was different that regulation of banks hindered growth.
These are also the same people that convinced them the euro was a great idea, and when the **** hit the fan as predictably it would convinced them the euro is what is saving them. And where would we be without the euro well we would not be up to our bollocks in bank debt for a start. The euro is what gave the banks access to the cheap money they then spread around like snuff at a wake to any developer that wanted it.

The reason we are stuck in a black hole of austerity for the last 5 years with no end in sight is because people are still listening to the gob****es that led us into the black hole of austerity. They cheerlead the bubble now they cheerlead the austerity all the while studiously avoiding the fact that they were the ones who led us here. Instead they look for targets to blame ,divide and conquer blame the civil servants, blame the public servants, blame the semi states point to others and accuse them of greed and being on a gravy train.

Wake up, austerity is not saving us it is slowly killing this country and economy, we handed over control of mechanisms that other countries have used to try and claw their way out,
We can't control our interest rates, we can't devalue our currency we have no say in our monetary policy, so we are left with cut cut and cut again it doesn't work it won't work but it will take the gob****es a little longer till they start cheerleading a new direction.

listermint

cdebru wrote: »

People are angry and they still let the same mongs guide them as to who they should be angry with. The same gob****es that convinced them property never went down in value, or the fundamentals of the economy were sound, that 20% inflation per year in property was not a bubble, that it would be a soft landing, that Ireland was different that regulation of banks hindered growth.
These are also the same people that convinced them the euro was a great idea, and when the **** hit the fan as predictably it would convinced them the euro is what is saving them. And where would we be without the euro well we would not be up to our bollocks in bank debt for a start. The euro is what gave the banks access to the cheap money they then spread around like snuff at a wake to any developer that wanted it.

The reason we are stuck in a black hole of austerity for the last 5 years with no end in sight is because people are still listening to the gob****es that led us into the black hole of austerity. They cheerlead the bubble now they cheerlead the austerity all the while studiously avoiding the fact that they were the ones who led us here. Instead they look for targets to blame ,divide and conquer blame the civil servants, blame the public servants, blame the semi states point to others and accuse them of greed and being on a gravy train.

Wake up, austerity is not saving us it is slowly killing this country and economy, we handed over control of mechanisms that other countries have used to try and claw their way out,
We can't control our interest rates, we can't devalue our currency we have no say in our monetary policy, so we are left with cut cut and cut again it doesn't work it won't work but it will take the gob****es a little longer till they start cheerleading a new direction.

If they ever do! Our misfortune is having the release valve of emigration. I have a feeling there wouldnt be so much acceptance of the ****e we have been handed if we didnt have the easy luxury option of emmigration given so easily to irish passport holders.

cdebru

Bambi wrote: »

Btw you mentioned something about not affecting change

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/former-waterford-crystal-workers-win-landmark-ecj-battle-over-pension-losses-29221584.html

Do carry on

It is tough to hear but in general he is right, union leadership in this country is rotten in general, they are often in league with business to **** over their own members all lot of the time what we see is a charade, where they look like they are militant and hard line but they are just softening up their members to get rogered.

bumper234

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you want unions to protect private sector jobs, go out and unionize in the private sector. Unions represent the workers they are made up of, which in this case is public sector workers who have managed to negotiate manageable deals up to now.

If you want more a more powerful union movement that can affect political change, protecting both the private sector and public sector, then start unionizing in your private sector jobs as well, or else you have no lobbying power or voice beyond your vote once every 4-5 years.

I was in the union when i worked construction. They did nothing for anyone. I wouldn't ever pay into another union.

cdebru

bumper234 wrote: »

I was in the union when i worked construction. They did nothing for anyone. I wouldn't ever pay into another union.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree in general that unions have just become another business with people on their own career path who have have no interest in the ideals that unions were set up for.

But I would still rather be in a union than not, when you see the exploitation that is going on particularly in the multinational sector it is absolutely disgraceful.

Off course the other truth is that when you do get a union leader who is true to the values of trade unionism he is vilified, remember Brendan Ogle.

Eoin

cdebru wrote: »

But I would still rather be in a union than not, when you see the exploitation that is going on particularly in the multinational sector it is absolutely disgraceful.

As I said earlier, I left a unionised company to join a non-unionised multinational.

I much prefer the latter by a long shot, and have no desire to join a union. I didn't really want to join one in the last place either, but felt somewhat pressured into doing so. The people who were most vocal were, by and large, the people who did the least work and were the first to moan about the slightest change. Sounds like a stereotype, but that's how it was.

I suppose they did their job for their members - but the people they protected were often toxic to the working environment who dragged people down with them with their crappy attitudes. But they still got their annual increments because the company was hamstrung into giving them. Some of these people should have been dismissed for appalling performance, or made redundant because their jobs were nothing but "make work" to keep the unions happy.

This is not the sort of set-up that I want lobbying on my behalf on the national stage, nor a mentality I agree with at all.

Please don't assume that the lack of a union means there's a desire for one. A lot of people I know much prefer non-unionised companies.

KyussBishop

seamus wrote: »

This isn't the 70s. The guys heading up these unions share 18 holes, pints and strippers with our elected officials. They don't sit around negotiating better terms for their members, only better terms for themselves. If you think a modern union has any power to effect change or indeed any will to effect change, you're kidding yourself.

The unions in this country have gone the same way that all unions eventually do - they've become little fiefdoms for a handful of lazy and corrupt individuals who talk bland pleasantries and empty words to keep their members happy.

Eh, we just had a union out on strike, which affected the change of achieving a better negotiating position for its workers.

They are the most powerful political weapon the public have, and most of the public aren't unionized at all - if you saw a general strike in lieu of what you saw the last few days, from combined public/private unions covering most of the population, they would easily have the power to bring down government.

You have bad companies as much as you have bad unions. Set up your own unions if you dislike the current crop.

Frank Black

KyussBishop wrote: »

Eh, we just had a union out on strike, which affected the change of achieving a better negotiating position for its workers.

We just had a union out on an unjustified strike to try to retain some of their Celtic Tiger perks. They cost ordinary workers and the general Dublin economy money.
They received so little public support, they must have been ashamed and embarrassed standing on those picket lines yesterday.
There's no way they wanted to spend another day there today.

They will get a cosmetic change to the original deal to allow them to salvage some pride and tell themselves it was worth it.

Yesterday was a great victory for the ordinary non-unionised tax-paying workers in this country.

The next public sector union will think long and hard before pulling a similar stunt.

Megatron!!

cdebru wrote: »

People are angry and they still let the same mongs guide them as to who they should be angry with. The same gob****es that convinced them property never went down in value, or the fundamentals of the economy were sound, that 20% inflation per year in property was not a bubble, that it would be a soft landing, that Ireland was different that regulation of banks hindered growth.
These are also the same people that convinced them the euro was a great idea, and when the **** hit the fan as predictably it would convinced them the euro is what is saving them. And where would we be without the euro well we would not be up to our bollocks in bank debt for a start. The euro is what gave the banks access to the cheap money they then spread around like snuff at a wake to any developer that wanted it.

The reason we are stuck in a black hole of austerity for the last 5 years with no end in sight is because people are still listening to the gob****es that led us into the black hole of austerity. They cheerlead the bubble now they cheerlead the austerity all the while studiously avoiding the fact that they were the ones who led us here. Instead they look for targets to blame ,divide and conquer blame the civil servants, blame the public servants, blame the semi states point to others and accuse them of greed and being on a gravy train.

Wake up, austerity is not saving us it is slowly killing this country and economy, we handed over control of mechanisms that other countries have used to try and claw their way out,
We can't control our interest rates, we can't devalue our currency we have no say in our monetary policy, so we are left with cut cut and cut again it doesn't work it won't work but it will take the gob****es a little longer till they start cheerleading a new direction.

This is essentially giving the entire country a paycut, 100% blanket cut for EVERYONE. Now time to take urs!

its simple, Il give it to you in layman's terms so you can understand.

If Ireland has €100 to live off every week and Ireland has to pay out €150 every week then unfortunately Ireland's gonna have to make changes. They up taxes because that's the only way they can get at private sector. They cant attack multinational companies because they will leave. now Public sector and semi-state have to be cut. And they will continue to be cut until Ireland has €100 to live off every week and Ireland only now needs to pay out €99 euro a week making the country "sustainable".

If this doesn't happen the country will never recover and the next generation wont have a hope. You DB employees can post all the videos you want and talk about private v public but it does not change the facts.

listermint

Frank Black wrote: »

We just had a union out on an unjustified strike to try to retain some of their Celtic Tiger perks. They cost ordinary workers and the general Dublin economy money.
They received so little public support, they must have been ashamed and embarrassed standing on those picket lines yesterday.
There's no way they wanted to spend another day there today.

They will get a cosmetic change to the original deal to allow them to salvage some pride and tell themselves it was worth it.

Yesterday was a great victory for the ordinary non-unionised tax-paying workers in this country.

The next public sector union will think long and hard before pulling a similar stunt.

Megatron!! wrote: »

This is essentially giving the entire country a paycut, 100% blanket cut for EVERYONE. Now time to take urs!

its simple, Il give it to you in layman's terms so you can understand.

If Ireland has €100 to live off every week and Ireland has to pay out €150 every week then unfortunately Ireland's gonna have to make changes. They up taxes because that's the only way they can get at private sector. They cant attack multinational companies because they will leave. now Public sector and semi-state have to be cut. And they will continue to be cut until Ireland has €100 to live off every week and Ireland only now needs to pay out €99 euro a week making the country "sustainable".

If this doesn't happen the country will never recover and the next generation wont have a hope. You DB employees can post all the videos you want and talk about private v public but it does not change the facts.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you two lads because you clearly dont comprehend.

Austerity doesnt work, Austerity as proven not to work, Austerity never ever works. We will be back next year and the year after and the year after. And dont for one second think your wages are safer either. We need a complete european stimulus because the majority of the continent is limping along and singing into further decline.

If you cant see that you need to stop listening to sound bites from collusionist media. Sure arent we back in a property boom already....

Take a step back lads and examine the information its all out there for you to see.

Frank Black

listermint wrote: »

Let me put it in simpler terms for you two lads because you clearly dont comprehend.

Austerity doesnt work, Austerity as proven not to work, Austerity never ever works. We will be back next year and the year after and the year after. And dont for one second think your wages are safer either. We need a complete european stimulus because the majority of the continent is limping along and singing into further decline.

If you cant see that you need to stop listening to sound bites from collusionist media. Sure arent we back in a property boom already....

Take a step back lads and examine the information its all out there for you to see.

Thanks for putting it so simply. I can't handle complex issues like you.

Let's me try this on you.

When the looney left come out with statements like 'Austerity isn't working', what they actually mean is 'Austerity isn't pleasant', which is true. Austerity means reducing your expendature and increasing your income (usually through increased taxes) in an attenpt to balance the budget.
It's not very pleasant - but guess what?
It is working - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing.
Our budget deficit has reduced from 24.6bn in 2009, to around 12.5bn last year.
Now, obvioulsy I'm not as intelligent as you, but this austerty thingy, while pretty unpleasant seems to be doing what it's supposed to be doing.

On the other hand we've got your proposal - pump ****loads more money into the economy and worry about paying it back later.

Let me have a think about that.......


Nope, sounds pretty reckless, but then again, I'm not as intelligent as you and am probably missing something really obvious.

IvySlayer

Please don't suggest this strike has anything to do with protesting about austerity.

It's greed pure and simple.

Them calling off the strike for more negotiating doesn't make sense. I'd have more respect if they kept striking until they got what they wanted, but they didn't, why is that?

20Cent

IvySlayer wrote: »

Please don't suggest this strike has anything to do with protesting about austerity.

It's greed pure and simple.

Them calling off the strike for more negotiating doesn't make sense. I'd have more respect if they kept striking until they got what they wanted, but they didn't, why is that?

Those greedy bus drives trashed the economy!!!!
Get a grip people are fighting for what they have, same as everyone else. Michael O'Leary will withdraw from an airport if he doesn't get the deal he wants and its considered great business, when a normal worker does the exact same thing its some awful evil thing lol

Thats how it works striking is a last resort it go them back into negotiations which was its purpose.

V4Voluntary

Privatisation would do wonders for competition in transportation.

The monopoly that Dublin Bus holds must be brought to an end immediately.

KyussBishop

Frank Black wrote: »

We just had a union out on an unjustified strike to try to retain some of their Celtic Tiger perks. They cost ordinary workers and the general Dublin economy money.
They received so little public support, they must have been ashamed and embarrassed standing on those picket lines yesterday.
There's no way they wanted to spend another day there today.

They will get a cosmetic change to the original deal to allow them to salvage some pride and tell themselves it was worth it.

Yesterday was a great victory for the ordinary non-unionised tax-paying workers in this country.

The next public sector union will think long and hard before pulling a similar stunt.

This is the usual public vs private sector bollocks.

These workers provide an essential service to the economy, allowing it to function and providing us with money, through the economic activity that public services encourage - the benefits (both economic and social) of public services, are measured far beyond the narrow-minded view of their balance sheets (that's why there are public services - to provide social/economic benefits, that go beyond an individual companies profits/losses).

The people really costing us, are the bankers/financiers who dumped a generation worth of debt on us, and who will be lapping up our public assets and selling us overpriced privatized for-profit services, as we push further through austerity.
The same group, who are also very happy to keep people focusing ire on public vs private sector nonsense, which affords them the political power to dismantle unions and push forward their acquisition of public assets/services.


Idiotic to think that the idea of disempowering unions - the only significant political power the public have left - would be a victory for anyone; usually the same crowd discouraging people from protesting, saying "it will do nothing" - basically discouraging people from any political action, which ensures political power tips more towards corporate/business/financial hands.

That's what that is all about, and they have an army of useful idiots backing it everywhere you go in print/news/online - idiots who don't know (or even often do know..) that they are arguing against the publics and thus their own best interests, for the benefit of the parasites among financiers that helped destroy much of our economy.


There are further strikes in the offing, notably from the ESB, and I can see them becoming a lot more prevalent in the years to come, as austerity deepens - we'll see how deterred they are.