Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

Megatron!! · 06-08-2013 09:47AM

qualified carpenter here. took 100% pay cut n now im gonna have to emigrate. Il gladly take a job in Dublin bus without joining their union. No sympathy here. They should take the cuts just the same as everyone else so we can turn this around quicker. Public service should not mean once the foot is in the door you cant be sacked. Also from my experience of public jobs I believe they are mostly canvased positions. So it means people in there getting their friends and family members jobs. I know people who work there and have seen it go on. Most jobs aren't advertised to the public. They have internal jobs on their system that are filled before the interview stage. Then they hold the interviews pretending jobs are available.

Its the next generation that will pay the price of this recession the most if we don't sort it out now. It no longer matters who was responsible for the mes ie bankers, government etc.. We need to go back to pre Celtic tiger wages and build ourselves towards another boom. This time hopefully we don't inflate everything out of control and manage it with the experience we now have.

Richard Hillman · 06-08-2013 09:48AM

How about abolishing all overtime and use those overtime hours to employ more staff. DB won't have to pay double time and we get more people working.

The Unions/Socialists cant possibly be against getting more people to work or spreading the "wealth".

With unemployment so high, no state/semi state body should be allowing overtime in low skilled jobs. The extra hours should be given to people who really need it.

seamus · 06-08-2013 09:49AM

ted1 wrote: »

Bollox I have worked for Intel, IBM and Motorola all non unionised companies all a joy to work for. Plenty of benefits, profit sharing etc. the work for force is very dynamic and hence the companies are successful and the employees are happy. I work with unionised companies and they are horrible to work for, far to much red tape a d politics in play.

Actually I have to agree with this. Any unionised places I've worked in are packed to the rafters with useless jobsworths who will whinge and complain at the slightest change and who do as little work as they can reasonably get away with.
I remember one guy when I told him that I'd set up a network personal drive for backups and to upload anything he wanted to save to it because I wouldn't be backing up the computers, started talking about whether or not that was part of his job and said he'd have to speak to the shop steward.

By contrast, non-union places I've worked in tend to have people who actually want to be there, or at the very least people who actually do work because they know their job depends on it.

I'm undecided on the Dublin Bus issue because I've no idea what the specifics are. By default I'm usually biased against the unions because typically their attitude is that they will resist change at all costs while refusing to suggest any alternatives. If the management at Dublin Bus have decided costs need to be cut, then so be it. I can't really see what striking will accomplish except to make matters worse.

How about abolishing all overtime and use those overtime hours to employ more staff. DB won't have to pay double time and we get more people working.
The Unions/Socialists cant possibly be against getting more people to work or spreading the "wealth".

Hiring two workers to do 23 hours a week each can actually work out more expensive than hiring one worker to do 46 hours with overtime.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:03AM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

More rubbish.
Agency workers have since December 2011 , by law, the exact same rights,entitlements, and pay as their full time/non agency collegues.
http://www.canavanbyrne.ie/news-resources/latest-news/56-equal-treatment-for-agency-workers

Article 5 of the Directive provides that "the basic working pay and conditions of temporary agency workers shall be, for the duration of their assignment at a user undertaking, at least those that would apply if they had been recruited directly by that undertaking to occupy the same job." The Directive defines "basic working and employment conditions" as relating to "the duration of working time, overtime, breaks, rest periods, night work, holidays and public holidays" and "pay".

No they don't have any workers doing the same job directly employed so they have no one to compare themselves too, secondly they are foreign workers with little or no understanding of their rights or entitlements they get rid of them because after 12 months continous employment you have the right to unfair dismissal legislation.

They have them on fixed term contracts and they never allow them to stay to where they qualify for a permanent contract.

That legislation is only applicable where they are temp agency workers brought in to cover and the company have direct employees doing the same job.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:07AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is just another example of how the boom time money was pissed away.

Dublin needs an underground metro system, there is far too much reliance on the bus network.

lol we don't have the density to make an underground viable, think about it ffs the vast majority of Dublin is front and back gardens in large housing estates, the really expensive part of building an underground is the stations and we would need loads of them.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:09AM

IvySlayer wrote: »

Inform the local Gardaí! Sure it's just up the road from the station in Pearse street!

And if they can get there cars out from the triple parking outside the station they will be up in no time.

Dravokivich · 06-08-2013 10:09AM

miju wrote: »

If I've read right their core pay is 40k before overtime etc. If thats the case then not a hope in hell.

It's not right. There is a lot of distorted information being presented based on "Averages" which is not really a true reflection on anything. A driver has posted in the Commuting & Transport forums advising as such over the weekend.

seamus wrote: »

By contrast, non-union places I've worked in tend to have people who actually want to be there, or at the very least people who actually do work because they know their job depends on it.

The thing with that though, is a lot of them have turned to using agencies to provide staffing so they don't have to deal with it. These Agencies are non-union and rarely favourable to the employees.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:10AM

Celtise wrote: »

Most of the people I know that have been educated to masters level since recession hit are earning less than €30,000pa and dont get overtime/sick pay/pension contributions. They should just go out and get bus licences apparently and they would be better off even with the proposed reductions.

Yeah or you could tell us what they have a masters in ?

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:13AM

devnull wrote: »

There are many private companies who accept the free pass, apart from those who have started new routes in the last 12 months who have been barred from joining.

But then again it doesn't suit your agenda.

Are they being paid on the same terms as Dublin Bus ? If they were carrying the numbers DB is carrying and getting paid the minute fraction of the cost I guarantee you they would not touch it with a stick.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:17AM

Thom Merrilin wrote: »

Yeah but it's safe to say their scientists make more than their bus drivers. A situation the other way round can only arise when bloated unions with over-inflated opinions of themselves and their jobs bully the public and the government into accepting their demands.

Where are these scientists working how much are they earning ?

Frank Black · 06-08-2013 10:19AM

My workplace is quite close to the Ringsend depot and I sit beside the window.
The lack of public support for the strikers is quite (dare I say) striking.
There's the odd car horn being beeped, but it's very rare especially considering the amount of traffic passing on Pearse St.

Can't see this strike lasting very long - the lack of public support for a cosseted bunch of workers, insulated from the harsh realities of life in the private sector must be an eye-opener for those picketers.

Dyr · 06-08-2013 10:21AM

ted1 wrote: »

Bollox I have worked for Intel, IBM and Motorola all non unionised companies all a joy to work for. Plenty of benefits, profit sharing etc. the work for force is very dynamic and hence the companies are successful and the employees are happy. I work with unionised companies and they are horrible to work for, far to much red tape a d politics in play.

Why did ya not add dell to that list?

Oh yeah

OCorcrainn · 06-08-2013 10:22AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and its a job they are really well paid to do, too well paid in fact.

Remember when the economy went belly up because we paid ordinary workers a decent wage...nah me fúcking neither.

Frank Black · 06-08-2013 10:27AM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Remember when the economy went belly up because we paid ordinary workers a decent wage...nah me fúcking neither.

I remember the economy going belly up because we increased public expenditure, including the salaries and numbers of public servants on the back of very cyclical tax income.

Does this count?

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:28AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Not much support here. Like most public departments and employment they make serious extra money from allowances for this, that and the other, and abnormal amounts of overtime. Their basic salary is not being cut, but their excess and allowances are, which I can see they are aggrevied as it hits them in the pocket.

Figures this morning released outline that on average last year bus drivers when totalled with their allowances earn in excess of 50k per annum. When unions and representative bodies discuss their members salaries and impacts, they never include the allowances and overtime, always sighting the basic salary.

This morning the assistant secretary was on Newstalk saying how the average member is on industrial minimum wage, my ****ing hole. Anyone who has a relative that works in the public sector knows how it works.

Sorry but the country is in a poor financial state. Dublin Bus is already an overpriced service for what is an underfunded and poorly ran business. Compared to pretty much anywhere else in Europe, it is a pretty bad joke. Moves need to be made in order to bring the bus service into an efficient operable state, and making sure it's cost effective and can be a viable alternative to driving or cycling, which at present it is not. And the start is by removing the generous allowances and overtime paid.

Bull**** it is impossible for average bus drivers pay to be even 50k never mind in excess of it,

Basic pay including shift payments is about 38,500 the maximum working week is 48 hours, so even if they managed to max out their hours, they couldn't make 50,000 nevermind the average being 50,000 or in excess of it, it is not possible.

Hopefully for the last time, DB is not public sector it is semi state, big difference.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:29AM

Frank Black wrote: »

I remember the economy going belly up because we increased public expenditure, including the salaries and numbers of public servants on the back of very cyclical tax income.

Does this count?

If bus drivers were public servants it might, but they aren't and that is not why the country went tits up so short answer is .....no.

Dyr · 06-08-2013 10:32AM

Megatron!! wrote: »

qualified carpenter here. took 100% pay cut n now im gonna have to emigrate. I know people who work there and have seen it go on. Most jobs aren't advertised to the public. They have internal jobs on their system that are filled before the interview stage. Then they hold the interviews pretending jobs are available.

Ah yes a carpenter, must the last swallow of the tiger era. I know lots of people who hired carpenters that were meant to be fully qualified and charged them silly money for a total hack job....

We all know people who know people.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:32AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

The thing with that though, is a lot of them have turned to using agencies to provide staffing so they don't have to deal with it. These Agencies are non-union and rarely favourable to the employees.

100% correct, the pay is bad the conditions are bad overtime is demanded but not paid for and if you don't like it you can **** off, these people are strung along hoping for a permanent contract that never comes or a proper job directly with the company which rarely if ever happens.

OCorcrainn · 06-08-2013 10:33AM

Frank Black wrote: »

I remember the economy going belly up because we increased public expenditure, including the salaries and numbers of public servants on the back of very cyclical tax income.

Does this count?

Of course, in the grand scheme of things how does the previous and current government bailing out the banks for 150 billion euros of taxpayer and future taxpayers money compare to the couple of million spent on improving the wages of underpaid lower income public servants? :pac:

Tar.Aldarion · 06-08-2013 10:35AM

There is no way they make over 50k madness. However that does not mean they are not well paid, They are third highest of 28 countries in the eu, and 6th best paid drivers in the world. There are far too many bus threads, this is why I know this crap in the first place :pac:

homerjay2005 · 06-08-2013 10:35AM

cdebru wrote: »

Bull**** it is impossible for average bus drivers pay to be even 50k never mind in excess of it,

well their finance statements suggest otherwise. their management bills is around 300k-400k, out of total staff costs of €181million.

regardless of what you say or not, there ARE drivers who get paid around 50k and many of them in fact. new drivers maybe on about 30k.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 06-08-2013 10:35AM

cdebru wrote: »

100% correct, the pay is bad the conditions are bad overtime is demanded but not paid for and if you don't like it you can **** off, these people are strung along hoping for a permanent contract that never comes or a proper job directly with the company which rarely if ever happens.

That lie has been dealt with already in my earlier post.
Since 2011 agency workers have by law been legally entitled to the same treatment,terms and conditions as those employed directly by the company using the said agency staff.
Peddling a lie continously will never make it the truth!

kylith · 06-08-2013 10:37AM

cdebru wrote: »

Bull**** it is impossible for average bus drivers pay to be even 50k never mind in excess of it,

Basic pay including shift payments is about 38,500 the maximum working week is 48 hours, so even if they managed to max out their hours, they couldn't make 50,000 nevermind the average being 50,000 or in excess of it, it is not possible.

Hopefully for the last time, DB is not public sector it is semi state, big difference.

Ah, right, so €40,000 instead of €50,000. Please excuse me while my heart bleeds for them.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:37AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so around 68% of boards users dont support the drivers, this is farily damning though at the same time i cant see why 32% of people support them. ive seen people say they support them, but as yet, no good reasons why.

would be interesting to see if this changes as the strike goes on, cant see people supporting them for too long as their greed gets more and more. the only way to sort this is to stop paying them.

Like I said public support is nice but in the end it matters **** all, it won't be resolved one way or the other because of public support or the lack of it.

I can think of loads of cases where the workers had public support, usually because they were not directly affected by it and they got no where.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:39AM

kylith wrote: »

Ah, right, so €40,000 instead of €50,000. Please excuse me while my heart bleeds for them.

Well if you think there is little difference between 40,000 and 50,000 perhaps you should look for a job in anglo oops too late maybe try the department of finance.

Dravokivich · 06-08-2013 10:39AM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

That lie has been dealt with already in my earlier post.
Since 2011 agency workers have by law been legally entitled to the same treatment,terms and conditions as those employed directly by the company using the said agency staff.
Peddling a lie continously will never make it the truth!

NOT if they are managed by the agency.

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:41AM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

That lie has been dealt with already in my earlier post.
Since 2011 agency workers have by law been legally entitled to the same treatment,terms and conditions as those employed directly by the company using the said agency staff.
Peddling a lie continously will never make it the truth!

And I answered you but you ignored that one, if the company doesn't have any direct employees doing your job how can you have the same rights and entitlements as them? oh wait you can't!!!!

Frank Black · 06-08-2013 10:41AM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Of course, in the grand scheme of things how does the previous and current government bailing out the banks for 150 billion euros of taxpayer and future taxpayers money compare to the couple of million spent on improving the wages of underpaid lower income public servants? :pac:

Oh, is that all the budget deficit is?
I didn't realise .

cdebru · 06-08-2013 10:42AM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

There is no way they make over 50k madness. However that does not mean they are not well paid, They are third highest of 28 countries in the eu, and 6th best paid drivers in the world. There are far too many bus threads, this is why I know this crap in the first place :pac:

They were the 3rd in 2011 but 2 years later they are not in the same place if the survey was done today.

LuckyLloyd · 06-08-2013 10:44AM

How does the Dublin Bus accident incident rate compare relatively to the rest of the world?

Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

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