Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

KwackerJack

Shamrock231 wrote: »

Ryanair do not offer pilots more than Aer Lingus, Ryanair is a whole other kettle of fish and to be honest, the pilots in Ryanair deserve an all out strike for the way they're treated by Ryanair.

You get what you pay for! RYANAIR treat there pilots like crap to the extent were any well trained/experienced pilot will go with Aer Lingus or Aer Arann.

Check out there incident reports, A lot more than our other airlines. Its not the pilots fault neither!

You hand a budding pilot a A320/737 and he won't say no but doesn't mean he's had sufficient training but there so Ryanair don't give a bollox!

If you have to fly for them, Don't let them train you and do 2 years and move on with your experience!

Anyway how did we go from buses to airlines

Stabshauptmann

homerjay2005 wrote: »

can you tell me where exactly i am misleading? i have clearly already said that 54k per person is what it costs for Dublin bus to employ staff. i did not say this is salary. i have also said about 5 times at this stage, average wage is around 46k, but there are some drivers (according to national papers) who are on 50k.

so please, tell me where i am misleading people. you can argue all you want, but for dublin bus according to their financial report, it cost €54,160 to employee each of their staff in 2011.

As Seamus and I have both said, that figure of 54k is as bloated as possible by law to include every staff related cost.
What the man in the street understands by the word payroll is wages and salary, so stop going on about 54k, and only go on about 46k.

bumper234

KwackerJack wrote: »

You get what you pay for! RYANAIR treat there pilots like crap to the extent were any well trained/experienced pilot will go with Aer Lingus or Aer Arann.

Check out there incident reports, A lot more than our other airlines. Its not the pilots fault neither!

You hand a budding pilot a A320/737 and he won't say no but doesn't mean he's had sufficient training but there so Ryanair don't give a bollox!

If you have to fly for them, Don't let them train you and do 2 years and move on with your experience!

Anyway how did we go from buses to airlines

This is false, Ryanair have a very good safety record and Europe wide they are one of the safest airlines to fly with.

Francesco

ush wrote: »

Someone in India can do that scientist's job for a fraction.

Someone from Eastern Europe, never mind India can do any of our jobs for a fraction of the price. You'll never win that worker race to the bottom. You'll never compete on price alone.

kylith

cdebru wrote: »

Well if you think there is little difference between 40,000 and 50,000 perhaps you should look for a job in anglo oops too late maybe try the department of finance.

I never said that there is little difference between 40k and 50k, I said that I have little sympathy for them. They are earning well over the average wage and have secure employment in unstable economic times doing fairly unskilled work. Bad cess to them with their strike. How many minimum wage people have had to pay money they can ill afford to get taxis to work while these guys, on comfortable wages, are on strike?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

bumper234 wrote: »

This is false, Ryanair have a very good safety record and Europe wide they are one of the safest airlines to fly with.

Exactly, they have one of the biggest fleets in the world and yet have ,per capita to fleet size, very few incidents.

bumper234

kylith wrote: »

I never said that there is little difference between 40k and 50k, I said that I have little sympathy for them. They are earning well over the average wage and have secure employment in unstable economic times doing fairly unskilled work. Bad cess to them with their strike. How many minimum wage people have had to pay money they can ill afford to get taxis to work while these guys, on comfortable wages, are on strike?

This is the crux of most peoples ire and it has been mentioned here.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0805/466407-dublin-bus-strike/


He said the industrial action is targeting people in Dublin for whom there is no alternative to public transport in many cases.
If the strike continues into next week, he said, it will "threaten the jobs of people in Dublin who don't have the job security or protection that Dublin Bus workers do".

DebDynamite

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

What are the proposed changes the bus drivers are striking over:


Labour Court recommendations

• No proposal to reduce core or basic pay
• Reductions in rest day and overtime pay on Sunday to double time from 2.5
• Rest day rate on Monday to Saturday to be paid at a time and a quarter, down from time and a half
• Monday to Saturday overtime to be paid at time and a quarter for the first two hours and time and a half thereafter, rather than time and a half every hour
• Public holidays on a normal day to be paid at time and one quarter plus statutory entitlement
• Public rest day rate and overtime to be paid at time and one quarter plus statutory entitlement
• The court also recommended that a total of four days self-certified sick leave should be permitted in a calendar year with no more than two such days allowed in a six-month period. This is a change from the seven days a year that drivers currently have.

Could anyone please tell me what a rest day is?

Shamrock231

bumper234 wrote: »

AER Lingus pilots are "unlikely to jump ship" to Ryanair despite salaries of up to stg£11,000 (€15,700) higher than they are currently being offered in Belfast.

It is understood that Ryanair captains need higher qualifications for the new jobs than is the case at Aer Lingus.

That figure quoted for Ryanair is only available to Ryanair pilots, who make up only 20% of the pilots at Ryanair and decreasing.

Aer Lingus pays it's pilots a basic wage plus a little bit for every hour they fly, €2-€3. Ryanair only pay per hour their pilots work, Ryanair charges it's pilots to join the airline, and makes a profit, meaning they hire way more pilots than they need as the only pay them when they fly anyways. This reduces their annual flying hours down a lot and means no Ryanair pilot makes anywhere near the amount they quote as the maximum salary.

When they do airport standbys, where they come to the airport at 4 in the morning, in uniform, ready to work if another pilto calls in sick, they spend 11 hours sitting in the airport and go home and don't earn one cent for that time, as they didn't fly. This could go on for 2-3 weeks.

No sick pay, no holidays, no maternity leave, if you want to leave Ryanair there's a leaving fee of £5,000 or €7,000.

If you call in sick, you're going to miss a days wages.

At the drop of a hat they can be told they're moving to Poland or any other base for a month. There they have to pay for their own appartment or hotel for that month, while still feeding their families back home. Also, when they arrive in this foreign base, they may not even get to fly from there and may just be put on airport standby.

So don't think for a second that Ryanair pilots have it easy.

cdebru

DebDynamite wrote: »

Could anyone please tell me what a rest day is?

working your scheduled day off.

Dravokivich

DebDynamite wrote: »

Could anyone please tell me what a rest day is?

I understand it to be a defined day off. Their scheduling isn't like a typical Mon-Fri, where we'd have the weekend as rest days.

kylith

bumper234 wrote: »

This is the crux of most peoples ire and it has been mentioned here.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0805/466407-dublin-bus-strike/


He said the industrial action is targeting people in Dublin for whom there is no alternative to public transport in many cases.
If the strike continues into next week, he said, it will "threaten the jobs of people in Dublin who don't have the job security or protection that Dublin Bus workers do".

Well quite. If a person can't get to work without the bus then their boss is going to consider whether or not they actually need someone that cannot guarantee that they will be at work, depending on the buses, or whether they'd be better off employing someone who lives more locally.

Gatling

DebDynamite wrote: »

Could anyone please tell me what a rest day is?

A day where you can't be arsed getting out of bed but you still get payed

dar100

They should all be lined up against the wall

DebDynamite

Dravokivich wrote: »

I understand it to be a defined day off. Their scheduling isn't like a typical Mon-Fri, where we'd have the weekend as rest days.

So they get paid for their days off?

Dravokivich

DebDynamite wrote: »

So they get paid for their days off?

The comment you were querying, was in regards to working days off.

listermint

DrumSteve wrote: »

I use the bus every day and I need it to get to and from work.

But I support them. They are not disagreeing to pay cuts or changes, they just want to know when they are going to end. The company afaik wants to make these changes, then more again in future after this.

So fair play to them. While it puts me out im glad they are taking a stand.

However with these being boards, I reckon the poll will indicate they should all be rounded up and executed.

A couple of weeks ago i would have entirely disagreed with you. But my attitude is changing especially when you see documentaries such as this.

Which highlight how big business is looking the smash collective bargaining so workers are left with nothing. Big business seems to be hiding behind self drafted employment laws that are made at the lobbing request of high profile backers.


I dont think it is a conspiracy theory to suggest that most western governments are now run at the behest of corporate sponsorship. Where naive or not so naive politicians campaigns are sponsored with the cash of a select few self interests.

Id be siding with the drivers here as 'some' unions are the last bastion of people power that we have outside of the devide and conquer that is going on with highly wealth sponsored media campaigns.

OldNotWIse

No. Treble time on Sundays?? Are they for real?

KyussBishop

listermint wrote: »

A couple of weeks ago i would have entirely disagreed with you. But my attitude is changing especially when you see documentaries such as this.


Which highlight how big business is looking the smash collective bargaining so workers are left with nothing. Big business seems to be hiding behind self drafted employment laws that are made at the lobbing request of high profile backers.


I dont think is a conspiracy theory to suggest that most western governments are now run at the behest of corporate sponsorship. Were naive or not so naive politicians campaigns are sponsored with the cash of a select few self interests.

Id be siding with the drivers here as 'some' unions are the last bastion of people power that we have outside of the devide and conquer that is going on with highly wealth sponsored media campaigns.

This is a really important point - given the docility of the general population in Ireland regarding protests and such, the unions are the last form of people power left that can credibly affect political change.

cdebru

DebDynamite wrote: »

So they get paid for their days off?

It is pay for working your day off.

suicide_circus

do you know what I get for working a Sunday?

I get to keep my job.

Eponymous

DebDynamite wrote: »

So they get paid for their days off?

The wilful misinterpretation of facts on this thread is incredible, but not entirely surprising.

(I just picked this as the latest example, but it seems both sides are at it).

For the record, I'm in favour. It inconveniences me greatly, but how often can management keep dipping into the pockets of workers.

Unfortunately never happen, Irish people are lazy and weak-willed and thus take any old ****.

And yet, here we have a group of Irish people willing to stand up and not take any old **** and they're being lambasted for it.

Divide and conquor!

Dyr

kylith wrote: »

Well quite. If a person can't get to work without the bus then their boss is going to consider whether or not they actually need someone that cannot guarantee that they will be at work, depending on the buses, or whether they'd be better off employing someone who lives more locally.

Going by this thread why would a dublin bus employee give a flying f**k about someone else's problems? It's obvious that it will never be reciprocated.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

KyussBishop wrote: »

This is a really important point - given the docility of the general population in Ireland regarding protests and such, the unions are the last form of people power left that can credibly affect political change.

People power me hole!
The only ones in unions these days are the spoilt brats in the PS and Semi State sector, eager to keep their snouts in the public trough and who dont give a toss who has to pay the bill for the greed and sense of entitlement!

suicide_circus

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

What are the proposed changes the bus drivers are striking over:

Labour Court recommendations

• No proposal to reduce core or basic pay
• Reductions in rest day and overtime pay on Sunday to double time from 2.5
• Rest day rate on Monday to Saturday to be paid at a time and a quarter, down from time and a half
• Monday to Saturday overtime to be paid at time and a quarter for the first two hours and time and a half thereafter, rather than time and a half every hour
• Public holidays on a normal day to be paid at time and one quarter plus statutory entitlement
• Public rest day rate and overtime to be paid at time and one quarter plus statutory entitlement
• The court also recommended that a total of four days self-certified sick leave should be permitted in a calendar year with no more than two such days allowed in a six-month period. This is a change from the seven days a year that drivers currently have.

I would jump at these T&Cs!!

cdebru

Gatling wrote: »

A day where you can't be arsed getting out of bed but you still get payed

Wrong but not unusual for you at this stage.

A rest day is your scheduled day off, if you agree to work it which by the way means the buses operate and people get to work and home again etc then currently you are paid 1.5 days pay that is a standard day if you are lucky the days work you get has 7 hours 40 minutes if you are not you could have a day with 9 or more hours work you still get the same money they want to reduce that to 1.25 days pay.

If you don't want to work it then you get paid nothing same as any other job.

A likely consequence is less people will work it and there will be more buses missing from the schedule.

cdebru

suicide_circus wrote: »

I would jump at these T&Cs!!

Good they will start hiring in September.

SteM

To the original question - no I don't support their actions.

OT but I enjoyed cycling into work today more than I normally do. Normally have buses pulling in on top of me or passing way too close down through Templeogue, Terenure and especially Rathmines but there was none of that today.

OldNotWIse

cdebru wrote: »

Wrong but not unusual for you at this stage.

A rest day is your scheduled day off, if you agree to work it which by the way means the buses operate and people get to work and home again etc then currently you are paid 1.5 days pay that is a standard day if you are lucky the days work you get has 7 hours 40 minutes if you are not you could have a day with 9 or more hours work you still get the same money they want to reduce that to 1.25 days pay.

If you don't want to work it then you get paid nothing same as any other job.

A likely consequence is less people will work it and there will be more buses missing from the schedule.

Shock.

cdebru

seamus wrote: »

You're making a bit of a jump there to assume there's some causal link between the remuneration of a driver and the company's safety record. Ireland itself has an internationally excellent road safety record, Dublin is proportionally the safest city in Ireland to drive in, and the busses have thousands of KM of dedicated lanes to use. So one could equally make the argument that DB has a good safety record by default - i.e. the driving environment in Dublin is such that you would need to have a workforce of bad drivers to have a bad safety record. If you have a force of averagely-competent drivers, then your safety record for driving in Dublin should be pretty good.

It's also a big mistake to assume that safety is purely down to the individual driver. The company's processes and training regimes could be such that whether someone is getting 28k or 68k, they receive ample training to ensure that they come out as all pretty good drivers.



The company could also be factoring in a pile of other costs there - training, uniforms, average sick days, employer's PRSI, etc etc etc. In stuff like this you'll have the company's side, which is to paint employee costs as exorbitant, the union's side, which paints all employees as barely scraping by above the minimum wage who "can't take any more", and then you have the reality which falls somewhere in the middle.

I think the union are onto a loser here though. They seem to have little or no public support. I barely saw any difference in traffic volumes today. Lots of people walking, a handful of extra cars, but overall not much different to any other summer's day. If they went on strike during a cold and wet October week, it would be a different story. As it stands if they strike all week, half of their customers might actually grow to enjoy walking into work instead of bussing it.

The unions did not select the timing the company did for the exact reasons you just outlined.
They brought in the new contract on Sunday, you can't work it as you would be accepting the new terms.


It is not pretty good or average it is better than all the other cities in the survey who many have much better bus lanes and laws that insist a bus leaving a stop has right of way.