Why can nobody speak Irish?

Rubecula · 05-08-2013 05:44PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Why force people to learn a language which is not their native language? Don't the wishes of children and their parents count for anything?

Well to be honest that argument could in reality apply to most subjects. I was forced (if that is the right term to use although it may be more accurate to say I didn't get an option) to learn French at an early age. I actually enjoyed it back then, and getting praise when I manged something particularly well. I think all kids like that?? It may have proved useful if I had been allowed to keep it up.

I wish I could read some of my Grandfather's writings for example. But apart from his poor spelling it is in Irish and I can not understand one word in ten. Bless him.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 06:19PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

In the case of Irish, it's native-English-speaking enthusiasts desperately need to assert reasons why they spend some much time practicing Irish.

Irish speakers need to expalin why they speak Irish? Ha.

Well personally I consider it to be my language as much as English is, its part of who I am, to not speak it would be to deny part of who I am.

I really do hope my reasons are good enough for you, I am ever so desperate for them to be accepted.:D

emo72 · 05-08-2013 06:35PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

All languages are beautiful. They are part of the miracle of society.

In the case of Irish, it's native-English-speaking enthusiasts desperately need to assert reasons why they spend some much time practicing Irish. If it can be held to be 'more beautiful' than English, it adds to a particular kind of self-esteem they crave.

to be fair, id say all languages are equal. i cant logically see how beauty could be applied to languages.

maybe a few academic types got some rte airtime back in the day when england and their language was the sworn enemy. and thats how the fallacy that irish was a beautiful language was born.

you could argue quite convincingly that to claim your language was more beautiful than another was a wee bit conceited.

anyway best of luck to anyone that wants to learn any language, a bit of knowledge never hurt anyone.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 06:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ok first off you shouldn't learn a language because your ancestors spoke it, that's stupid. Secondly even if you do buy into the ridiculous notion of cultural language learning the English have much more in common with the Normans (French) and the Saxons (Germans) then the insular Celtic languages.

So Rubecula should live his life by your standards. Who the fuck are you to tell someone what they should or shouldn't do, are you special in some way?
Because of your attitude towards Irish language and culture your advice is about as valid as a white supremacist's opinion on African cultures.

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 06:55PM

An Coilean wrote: »

II really do hope my reasons are good enough for you, I am ever so desperate for them to be accepted.:D

It can be a perfectly harmless hobby or it can also be a neurosis festered from a sense of shame festered by ultra-nationalists.

What's distinguishes one from the other is whether the pursuit of Irish language learning involves its imposition on others.

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 06:57PM

Rubeter wrote: »

So Rubecula should live his life by your standards. Who the fuck are you to tell someone what they should or shouldn't do, are you special in some way?
Because of your attitude towards Irish language and culture your advice is about as valid as a white supremacist's opinion on African cultures.

Yes you're totally right. I am now off to learn the modern version of every language my ancestors ever spoke. Norwegian, French, Irish, Basque, Danish, Breton and Scots here I come!

After all I wouldn't be culturally fulfilled if I didn't. Would I?

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 07:16PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes you're totally right. I am now off to learn the modern version of every language my ancestors ever spoke. Norwegian, French, Irish, Basque, Danish, Breton and Scots here I come!

Reductio Ad Absurdum.

After all I wouldn't be culturally fulfilled if I didn't. Would I?

That depends on you, each to their own.

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 07:23PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Reductio Ad Absurdum.

That's.. Not what that means.

That depends on you, each to their own.

Indeed. People have a right to learn any language they like but I have a right to call them stupid.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 07:38PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's.. Not what that means.

Actually it's quite apt.

Indeed. People have a right to learn any language they like but I have a right to call them stupid.

You said he shouldn't do something because you think it's stupid, I say your opinion is irrelevant to his life, he is the one who leads it not you.
I also say that due to your feelings towards the Irish language your opinion is totally worthless because it is based on a bias, not on clear logical thinking.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 07:46PM

Rubeter wrote: »

English is popular, so what? I love English too, it's my native language, I read Shakespeare and Chaucer because their use of language is amazing, I also learned a bit of old English, it's a great language. And it's also fantastic to be a native speaker because of the sheer amount of literature available (I am a total bookworm).
What exactly is your point?
I hope you are not imagining I have a problem with English just because I like Irish, that would be bigotry and the love of those two languages is not mutually exclusive.

So what? What has that got to do with their living in an Irish speaking household? Mentioned because you didn't understand the difference between "an English speaking country" and "a country with a large number of people who can speak English".

I don't understand what your point with this post is.

My point is that english helps you when you travel abroad and mix with people far more and a local national langauge, which is contrary what you appeared to be suggesting to Bognor

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 07:50PM

Rubeter wrote: »

I also say that due to your feelings towards the Irish language your opinion is totally worthless because it is based on a bias, not on clear logical thinking.

One wonders where clear logical thinking can be found among the all the members of Conradh na Gaeilge whose goal is to restore Irish as our common tongue.

If the Irish lobby was clear and logical they would by now have realised that after 80 years of forcing children to learn Irish, that most people don't want to speak Irish.

Instead, they make up new reasons, surveys and grand plans that allow them to continue their struggle with the problem English-speaking Irish people,

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 07:50PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Actually it's quite apt.

It isn't. Reductio Ad Absurdum applies to where a proponent tries to prove a statement true by proving it's inverse to be false. You just saw the word "absurd" and sought to apply it to my position. But let's not get into this it's just arguing over semantics. I knew what you meant and that's the important thing.

You said he shouldn't do something because you think it's stupid, I say your opinion is irrelevant to his life, he is the one who leads it not you.

Where did I express any desire to control the life of this poster? I gave him advise but he is well within his right to ignore it.

I also say that due to your feelings towards the Irish language your opinion is totally worthless because it is based on a bias, not on clear logical thinking.

Now that, a chara is an opinion. :cool:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 07:53PM

An Coilean wrote: »

You do realise that I am well aware that no where near 1.77 million people are able to speak Irish in Ireland?
I was using that figure to make the point that many if not most of the supposed 250,000,000 people in Europe that can speak English likely also have a quite limited ability to actually speak the language.;)

Okay, back up a little there. I never said what level they spoke it to. But it would be at least conversational. I can prett much assure you that more than 2% will use it on a reugalr basis.

In other words, there are more active English speakers in Europe than Irish speakers in Ireland.

emo72 wrote: »

have been watching this thread but wouldnt get involved because im too biased.

i have often heard that term "a beautiful language". and was wondering where that idea came from? is it some sort of mantra to convince people its a language worth learning?

how would a language be judged as being beautiful? i dont think its even possible. everyone would be used to their own language and be comfortable with it. would anyone ever say to themselves "you know im quite glad i speak spanish/irish/english/swahili, because its so beautiful!"

i was told since i was a kid its a beautiful language, could never see how anyone came to that conclusion.

I always find it very surepticious that the people who love the way the Irish languge sounds just happened to be born here.

Aineoil · 05-08-2013 08:02PM

[QUOTE=Princess Consuela Bananahammock
I always find it very surepticious that the people who love the way the Irish languge sounds just happened to be born here.[/QUOTE]

I'm not getting at you or anything like that:)

But I love the sound of the Italian language, and I'm not Italian in the slightest, only have been there on holidays. I just like the sound of it.

emo72 · 05-08-2013 08:05PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Okay, back up a little there. I never said what level they spoke it to. But it would be at least conversational. I can prett much assure you that more than 2% will use it on a reugalr basis.

In other words, there are more active English speakers in Europe than Irish speakers in Ireland.

I always find it very surepticious that the people who love the way the Irish languge sounds just happened to be born here.

you could be on to something there. irish speaking people love irish language shocker.

anyway irish is never gonna come back as a big language. even with all time put into primary and secondary schools. its not working.

however the gael scoils seem to be more popular than ever. but even with loads of those scoils around me i never hear anyone conversing with it. they only speak it in the scoil i never hear those kids speaking outside with their friends.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 08:06PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It isn't. Reductio Ad Absurdum applies to where a proponent tries to prove a statement true by proving it's inverse to be false. You just saw the word "absurd" and sought to apply it to my position. But let's not get into this it's just arguing over semantics. I knew what you meant and that's the important thing.

Reductio ad absurdum is the technique of reducing an argument or hypothesis to absurdity, by pushing the argument's premises or conclusions to their logical limits and showing how ridiculous the consequences would be, thus disproving or discrediting the argument.
Link.

Where did I express any desire to control the life of this poster? I gave him advise but he is well within his right to ignore it.

I didn't say you wanted to control his life, not this makey uppy crap again. Is that the best you Hibernophobes can do.
I said your opinion was worthless for reasons given.

Now that, a chara is an opinion. :cool:

A quick glance at your posting history would show whether that opinion has any validity or not.

Grayson · 05-08-2013 08:11PM

emo72 wrote: »

to be fair, id say all languages are equal. i cant logically see how beauty could be applied to languages.

They're not all equal. Some are definitely more lyrical. Some have far greater range. That's not to say that some should be ditched because of their lack of complexity (Irish) or because they're really complex (german/english) or should be learned because they sound nice (Italian).

There's great benefits to learning most languages. But that doesn't mean that we should. Any argument should focus on the benefits that we obtain. If we were picking a foreign language to learn in class (without going into the whole irish argument. This is because besides irish/english we all learn a foreign language so for this hypothetical we'll just look at that language) and the options were French/German/Spanish/Italian/Arabic/Swahili, I think we can all agree swahili would be a non-runner. And it's because 99.99% would get no practical benefit. Whereas we can at lease state with great certainty that more students would find a use for one of the other languages at some stage.

Grayson · 05-08-2013 08:11PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Actually it's quite apt.

You said he shouldn't do something because you think it's stupid, I say your opinion is irrelevant to his life, he is the one who leads it not you.
I also say that due to your feelings towards the Irish language your opinion is totally worthless because it is based on a bias, not on clear logical thinking.

Just butting in here, but logic is my passion and since you're invoking it....

You're misquoting him. He said it shouldn't be done because it's stupid. not that someone shouldn't do something because he(Iwasfrozen) thought it's stupid.
What you're doing is avoiding the gist of his argument by trying to say it's his opinion. And therefore trying to imply that he's infringing someone rights by enforcing his opinions.

You're also trying to imply that it therefore nullifies his opinion and this is because of a perceived bias. However if you're willing to nullify someone opinion about a language just because it's based on a preference, then you have to also nullify the opinion of a speaker who's learning it because their ancestors spoke it. Obviously that learner is doing it for some reason of interest say possibly an emotional response (possibly due to nationalism). They have a perceived bias towards the language they're learning.

But you still haven't actually defended the position of the person who's learning a language because their ancestors spoke it. All you did was attack the person who proffered an opinion that it was wrong.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 08:12PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point is that english helps you when you travel abroad and mix with people far more and a local national langauge, which is contrary what you appeared to be suggesting to Bognor

I never suggested any such thing.
I'm now finished with you too, because every reply you make to me has nothing to do with anything I am actually saying, the sooner the schools reopen the better.

emo72 · 05-08-2013 08:20PM

Grayson wrote: »

They're not all equal. Some are definitely more lyrical. Some have far greater range. That's not to say that some should be ditched because of their lack of complexity (Irish) or because they're really complex (german/english) or should be learned because they sound nice (Italian).

There's great benefits to learning most languages. But that doesn't mean that we should. Any argument should focus on the benefits that we obtain. If we were picking a foreign language to learn in class (without going into the whole irish argument. This is because besides irish/english we all learn a foreign language so for this hypothetical we'll just look at that language) and the options were French/German/Spanish/Italian/Arabic/Swahili, I think we can all agree swahili would be a non-runner. And it's because 99.99% would get no practical benefit. Whereas we can at lease state with great certainty that more students would find a use for one of the other languages at some stage.

whats your opinion on irish being a "beautiful language"? i was trying to get my head around that. irish may be more lyrical or more freeflowing or whatever but that doesnt make it more beautiful.

if you go into central europe the laguages may be more teutonic, and they may might prefer the sounds of that.

im trying to get my head around growing up believing irish was a "beautiful language". i think its an absurdity. and maybe we should challenge that. who decided that? some irish language academics back in the 50s and 60s?

hardly objective, were they?

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 08:30PM

Rubeter wrote: »

I didn't say you wanted to control his life, not this makey uppy crap again. Is that the best you Hibernophobes can do.
I said your opinion was worthless for reasons given.

A quick glance at your posting history would show whether that opinion has any validity or not.

Name calling? Looking at my posting history? I really don't have anything else to say to you. It's obvious that your hostility towards me originates from some unknown pre conceived animosity and I really don't feel like arguing in circles with you.

Aineoil · 05-08-2013 08:40PM

Grayson, was that a dig at me because I wrote that Italian sounded nice?

I had no choice in learning either English or Irish because I was brought up in a bilingual household. My mother spoke English, my father spoke Irish. So in a way I was forced to learn languages. Most small children/toddlers have to learn a language anyway.

My husband and his extended family speak Irish and if I didn't I would be considered rude. For sure if a person in company only spoke English, we would speak in English. It's not an elite issue for me, just the way we live.

Later in life, by choice, I went on to study Italian. Languages are my hobby.
Each to their own. A chacun son gout. (Sorry my keyboard won't let me put in the accents)

If you hate the (insert whatever)______ language, why post?

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 08:41PM

emo72 wrote: »

believing irish was a "beautiful language". i think its an absurdity. and maybe we should challenge that. who decided that? some irish language academics back in the 50s and 60s?

It goes back much further than that. The Gaelic Revival built a myth that all things English (including the language) were coarse and brutal and that ancient Irish civilisation was poetic, wise and virtuous. This led in later years to the present shame-based system of making students learn Irish or risk being considered 'un-Irish' or even worse: 'West-Brit'.

It's quite natural for a person, infatuated with the novelty of a second language (be it French, Irish, German or Mandarin) to become overcome with the discovery of an alternative way of expression and thinking they never knew existed.

This exuberance, unfortunately can lead to an annoying trait of trying to make others 'see the light' too.

Grayson · 05-08-2013 08:42PM

emo72 wrote: »

whats your opinion on irish being a "beautiful language"? i was trying to get my head around that. irish may be more lyrical or more freeflowing or whatever but that doesnt make it more beautiful.

if you go into central europe the laguages may be more teutonic, and they may might prefer the sounds of that.

im trying to get my head around growing up believing irish was a "beautiful language". i think its an absurdity. and maybe we should challenge that. who decided that? some irish language academics back in the 50s and 60s?

hardly objective, were they?

Honestly, i don't think it's beautiful. Not that i think it's any less ugly than english. Italian sounds nice. But I think part of it is down to who's spaeking it too. I can't stand a donegal accent unless it's a woman who's speaking and then I think it sounds hot. And I think Russian sound hot when a woman speaks it. So if there's one thing we know, get a hot woman to speak anything at all and it sounds hot

There are probably a few criteria that can be used to assess the "beauty" of a language. The same as music, there are probably certain key inflections etc that are common in languages that are commonly though of as beautiful. For example arabic music and european music have some things in common although you and I would probably never be able to tell this.

It all comes down to personal preference (or hotness of the speaker).

I have often wondered though if the hotness of accents works in reverse. There are some accents like french and italians speaking english that we think of as sexy. I wonder if french people like irish people speaking french or maybe dutch or German.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 08:46PM

emo72 wrote: »

you could be on to something there. irish speaking people love irish language shocker.

anyway irish is never gonna come back as a big language. even with all time put into primary and secondary schools. its not working.

however the gael scoils seem to be more popular than ever. but even with loads of those scoils around me i never hear anyone conversing with it. they only speak it in the scoil i never hear those kids speaking outside with their friends.

It could, but most people either don;t have the interest or are too stubborn to makr it happen,

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 08:48PM

Rubeter wrote: »

I never suggested any such thing.
I'm now finished with you too, because every reply you make to me has nothing to do with anything I am actually saying, the sooner the schools reopen the better.

Now, you see, there's the problem. If I have misunderstood you,how about pointing out the mistake instead of preferring to get in some wiseass comment...? I'm human, I make mistakes, I accept it. But when you decide that your main aim is to get a quip in, then you're just going to look immatre and in need of some form of self-validation rather then adult debate.

Grayson · 05-08-2013 08:49PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Grayson, was that a dig at me because I wrote that Italian sounded nice?

I had no choice in learning either English or Irish because I was brought up in a bilingual household. My mother spoke English, my father spoke Irish. So in a way I was forced to learn languages. Most small children/toddlers have to learn a language anyway.

My husband and his extended family speak Irish and if I didn't I would be considered rude. For sure if a person in company only spoke English, we would speak in English. It's not an elite issue for me, just the way we live.

Later in life, by choice, I went on to study Italian. Languages are my hobby.
Each to their own. A chacun son gout. (Sorry my keyboard won't let me put in the accents)

If you hate the (insert whatever)______ language, why post?

It wasn't at all. I actually like the Italian accent. I happen to work on a huge open plan floor for a big multinational. The guy who sits next to me is spanish, the guy who sits opposite me is french. Of about 100 people on the floor, no more than 10 are native english speakers. The rest are spanish, german, dutch, italian and french. I'm learning french and spanish myself, I'm still useless at it, but I try to use it most days.

There's no practical point in me learning irish. I'd never use it. the only irish speaker I know is a girl who just graduated college with me. She did irish but she admits that she barely speaks it. She only did it because she wants to be a primary school teacher.
If I were to learn irish I'd have to actively seek out people to converse with.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 08:53PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

It can be a perfectly harmless hobby or it can also be a neurosis festered from a sense of shame festered by ultra-nationalists.

What's distinguishes one from the other is whether the pursuit of Irish language learning involves its imposition on others.

My identity is not a hobby.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 09:01PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Okay, back up a little there. I never said what level they spoke it to. But it would be at least conversational. I can prett much assure you that more than 2% will use it on a reugalr basis.

Says who? The census says that 1.77 million people can speak Irish here, you can blindly believe raw figures that support an argument you want to make, god knows plenty of people involved in promoting Irish have that problem, but I for one will be talking them with more than a pinch of salt.

In other words, there are more active English speakers in Europe than Irish speakers in Ireland.

And? There are more active chinease speakers in Asia than there are English speakers in Europe, or the world for that matter, but that is not really relevant unless you think the validity of language can be measured by some kind of numbers pissing contest.

Grayson · 05-08-2013 09:04PM

An Coilean wrote: »

My identity is not a hobby.

Should a language determine who you are? I'd like to think that whatever language I spoke I'd still be the same person. For example, I don't think I'd grow any less compassionate because I spoke German.

Language can shape certain preconceptions. I've done work on the concepts of the meaning of time and how the language has changed as we've changed our opinions, and occasionally how we develop those ideas based on the language used. But the language is a reflection of the prevailing ideas. Someone nowadays who learns about Time in irish will have the same ideas imparted as they would have in english because they are the prevailing thoughts in western europe.

Basically I'm saying for example that if you were a child in a house full of racists, you have a pretty good chance of growing up with racist attitudes. I don't think that it matters whether your parents impart those opinions in irish/english/german/etc... that won't make you more or less racist. We are who we are based on numerous things but language isn't one of them.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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