Why can nobody speak Irish?

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 06:28PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

When you read the list you get bogged down in details. Just eyeball the graph, most countries in the Anglophone world are prosperous and prosperous countries that aren't tend to have a high population of English speakers. Now I'm not saying correlation = causation but there is a correlation.

Too wide a variety of languages spoken by wealthy countries for there to be a link, you have to look at the details you are so quick to dismiss, like non-English speaking wealthy countries (and poor English speaking ones). You can't just say oooh look most English speaking ones are wealthy therefore there is a link.
By the way, a country like (for example) Norway with a high proportion of people who speak English is not an English speaking country.

And naturally because English is the international language of business there are a huge number of learned speakers out there, but it is quite obvious a country does not have to be English speaking to be wealthy, which is kinda the point.

BognarRegis · 04-08-2013 07:16PM

Rubeter wrote: »

And naturally because English is the international language of business there are a huge number of learned speakers out there, but it is quite obvious a country does not have to be English speaking to be wealthy, which is kinda the point.

Given that we are an English-speaking country, what would the costs and benefits be of changing our common language to Irish? Would those costs outweigh the benefits? What would have to be done so that the existing English speaking population would voluntarily agree to learn Irish and speak it?

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 07:22PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Given that we are an English-speaking country, what would the costs and benefits be of changing our common language to Irish? Would those costs outweigh the benefits? What would have to be done so that the existing English speaking population would voluntarily agree to learn Irish and speak it?

Since I have never thought seriously about changing the common language to Irish (because it will never happen) I have never looked into it and nor could I be bothered, why are you asking me these questions? Is this something to do with your fantasies about what posters here say or want?

BognarRegis · 04-08-2013 07:45PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Since I have never thought seriously about changing the common language to Irish (because it will never happen) I have never looked into it and nor could I be bothered, why are you asking me these questions? Is this something to do with your fantasies about what posters here say or want?

Just curious to know if you happened to be in posession of an opinion relevant to the topic under discussion. Given your lack of interest in the subject it is most generous of you to spend so much time in this thread.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 08:10PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Just curious to know if you happened to be in posession of an opinion relevant to the topic under discussion. Given your lack of interest in the subject it is most generous of you to spend so much time in this thread.

I have a great interest in Irish, so much that I learned the language and speak it as often as I can. That is all that I need to do to support it.

By the way, since I have no desire to shove the language down anybody's throat your attitude towards me is (to put it nicely) not the best, do you treat people like that because of their skin colour or religion too, or is it just language? There is word for people who make negative generalisations about people based on Colour, Creed or Language.
Since you cannot have an adult conversation (though I can actually understand your ire because of my dishing a number of your points) time to say slán kiddo.
Slán.

BognarRegis · 04-08-2013 08:33PM

Rubeter wrote: »

I have a great interest in Irish, so much that I learned the language and speak it as often as I can. That is all that I need to do to support it.

Do tell, why, in your opinion, do so few people speak Irish after 80 years of compulsory lessons and much state subsidy of Irish-language activity?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-08-2013 09:23PM

I'll just stick my little oar in your ocean of knowledge as well...

Rubeter wrote: »

Yea, all those non English speaking countries in Europe are very isolated and insular.
Population of Europe 700,000,000.... Population of English speaking countries in Europe 68,000,000

You are implying here that English is not as popular in Europe as is made out, are you not?

If not, please clarify. If so, tell me how correctign you below is erroneous...?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And the population of people in Europe that speak English is about 250,000,000

An Coilean · 04-08-2013 09:45PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'll just stick my little oar in your ocean of knowledge as well...

You are implying here that English is not as popular in Europe as is made out, are you not?

If not, please clarify. If so, tell me how correctign you below is erroneous...?

250,000,000 people in Europe can speak English? Ya, and 1.77 million people in Ireland can speak Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-08-2013 09:48PM

An Coilean wrote: »

250,000,000 people in Europe can speak English? Ya, and 1.77 million people in Ireland can speak Irish.

Yep. A little over one third.

An Coilean · 04-08-2013 09:50PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Yep. A little over one third.

Ya, and in our case, a little under a half.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-08-2013 09:52PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, and in our case, a little under a half.

No idea wghat the irish number is. Never commented.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-08-2013 10:01PM

Rubeter wrote: »

I have a great interest in Irish, so much that I learned the language and speak it as often as I can. That is all that I need to do to support it.

By the way, since I have no desire to shove the language down anybody's throat your attitude towards me is (to put it nicely) not the best, do you treat people like that because of their skin colour or religion too, or is it just language? There is word for people who make negative generalisations about people based on Colour, Creed or Language.
Since you cannot have an adult conversation (though I can actually understand your ire because of my dishing a number of your points) time to say slán kiddo.
Slán.

Having looked at some of your posts in this thread in the last 24 hours, you can hardly complain abotu someone else's attitude.

dubrov · 04-08-2013 10:13PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, and in our case, a little under a half.

A little under half can say a few words maybe but I'd say the true number who can speak Irish well would be shockingly small especially if you exclude the north

dubrov · 04-08-2013 10:38PM

jwkbyrne wrote: »

Im not going to read 67 pages on this, maybe its been said before, but my opinion is this, I would have considered myself reatively fluent in Irish at primary and secondary schools, with plays etc I liked it, but once u grow up start wrkin an unfortunately realize in society now there's not much call for it, u forget, I do feel guilty thought and have always thought of taking it up again,

I'd have been similar but without the guilt now.
I actually wish I'd learned Spanish instead and might actually still take it up in the future

BognarRegis · 04-08-2013 10:38PM

jwkbyrne wrote: »

I do feel guilty thought and have always thought of taking it up again,

Where does that guilt come from? Were you made to feel shame if you did not learn Irish?

jwkbyrne · 04-08-2013 11:08PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Where does that guilt come from? Were you made to feel shame if you did not learn Irish?

No guilt because on Irish not English, Im proud to be Irish, but feel like I should learn my own native language again, and it is a beautiful one, I feel I want to learn it more now as our identity has really gone down the jacks and everyone emigrating again, just this is my home, my language should be Irish,

Aineoil · 04-08-2013 11:30PM

[I]Im not going to read 67 pages on this, maybe its been said before, but my opinion is this, I would have considered myself reatively fluent in Irish at primary and secondary schools, with plays etc I liked it, but once u grow up start wrkin an unfortunately realize in society now there's not much call for it, u forget, I do feel guilty thought and have always thought of taking it up again,
[/I]

Léigh mé an giota seo agus thosaigh mé ag machnamh (rud baolach!). Tá a lán tuairimí amuigh ansin faoin teanga – níl suim da laghad ag daoine sa teanga, tá fuath ag daoine don teanga, tá sórt meas ag daoine don teanga agus tá grá ag daoine don teanga. Tá difríochtaí eadrainn go léir. Is maith an rud é go bhfuil sé sin fíor.
Ach ag an bpóinte seo, b’fhéidir go mbeadh sé níos fearr a bheith dearfach, snáth nua a cruthú, is dócha? Níl a fhios ‘am? Bheadh daoine in ann a dtuairimí a phlé? Nó b’fhéidir go mbeadh seans ag daoine, atá beagáinín suim sa Ghaeilge seans, í a úsáid arís.

I read this piece and I started to think (that’s dangerous). There many thoughts out there about the language. – some people have no interest in it, some people hate it, some people sort of like it and some people love the language. We are all different. That’s a good thing.
But at this point, maybe it’s better to be positive, make a new thread maybe? Or people who have a little bit of interest in Irish to try and chance to use it again?

I posted in both languages, because some of us live with the two languages.
Créid nó ná chréid.

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 06:03AM

jwkbyrne wrote: »

No guilt because on Irish not English, Im proud to be Irish, but feel like I should learn my own native language again, and it is a beautiful one, I feel I want to learn it more now as our identity has really gone down the jacks and everyone emigrating again, just this is my home, my language should be Irish,

Were you born into an Irish-speaking family? If not, where did you get told it was your native language? And when were you made to believe that speaking Irish was fundamental to national self-esteem? Did this happen during your education?

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 06:17AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'll just stick my little oar in your ocean of knowledge as well...
You are implying here that English is not as popular in Europe as is made out, are you not?

No I am stating a fact.

If not, please clarify. If so, tell me how correctign you below is erroneous...?

That is not correcting me, that is also a fact*. Those two facts ie; The population of European English speaking countries is 68,000,000 and 250,000,000 Europeans can speak English are both correct.
As I stated earlier Norway is a Norwegian speaking country not an English speaking one, that most Norwegians can speak English does not mean it is an English speaking country, it would be an English speaking one if Norwegians spoke English amongst themselves which they don't. Quite simple really.

I will add this to make it easy to understand, I know families who speak Irish at home (native speakers), these people therefore live in Irish speaking households, that all these people can also speak English does not mean they live in an English speaking household (simply because they don't speak English amongst themselves).

*P.S. I'm not going to check if your figure of 250,000,000 is correct because it isn't important to the point here.

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 06:57AM

Aineoil wrote: »

But at this point, maybe it’s better to be positive, make a new thread maybe? Or people who have a little bit of interest in Irish to try and chance to use it again?

There's a forum for that.

Why would you want to restrict discussion of how Irish is taught to people who wish to speak it? Don't English speakers have a right to be heard?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 10:36AM

Rubeter wrote: »

No I am stating a fact.

That is not correcting me, that is also a fact*. Those two facts ie; The population of European English speaking countries is 68,000,000 and 250,000,000 Europeans can speak English are both correct.
As I stated earlier Norway is a Norwegian speaking country not an English speaking one, that most Norwegians can speak English does not mean it is an English speaking country, it would be an English speaking one if Norwegians spoke English amongst themselves which they don't. Quite simple really.

Actually, sometimes they do.

This goes back to the point ou made to BornarRegis over the popularity of english in europe.

Norwegians may mor may not speak i with other Norwegians, but they will speak it to anyone else from Europe who does not speak Norwegian (or Swedish) which if the go abroad is very likely.

I will add this to make it easy to understand, I know families who speak Irish at home (native speakers), these people therefore live in Irish speaking households, that all these people can also speak English does not mean they live in an English speaking household (simply because they don't speak English amongst themselves).

*P.S. I'm not going to check if your figure of 250,000,000 is correct because it isn't important to the point here.

Then your point is either moot or badly made: what the speak in the privacy of their own home is their business, what they speak to communicate outside of the home, if not Irish, is most likely to be English.

Grayson · 05-08-2013 11:58AM

An Coilean wrote: »

250,000,000 people in Europe can speak English? Ya, and 1.77 million people in Ireland can speak Irish.

I'm calling bollox on that fact. Most of those 1.77 million people would barely be able to speak Irish. If you're referring to the census figures, they represent people who say they can speak irish. That included everyone on primary and secondary education but doesn't include that almost one in three (30.8 per cent) of 10 to 19 year olds said they were not able to speak Irish.

The way the question is phrased is bogus. I can speak a smattering of french and Spanish. I use it on a daily basis in work. I certainly couldn't carry a basic conversation. But using the standards that are applied to the census I would be a French and Spanish speaker.

The journal has a breakdown of the figures from the census.

http://www.thejournal.ie/census-2011-1-77m-say-they-are-able-to-speak-irish-400442-Mar2012/

Of the 1.77 million people who said they were able to speak the language:

77,185 said they speak it daily outside the education system

110,642 said they spoke it weekly

613,236 said they spoke it less often than weekly

One in four said they never spoke Irish

The number of people speaking Irish on a daily basis, who are not in school, increased by 5,037 persons since 2006 from 72,148 to 77,185, according to the data.

The breakdown of daily Irish speakers between the years 2006 and 2011 in specific Gaeltachts are as follows:

Cork County: 867 daily speakers to 982 daily speakers (+115)

Donegal County: 6,956 to 7,047 (+91)

Galway County: 9,654 to 10,085 (+431)

Galway City: 571 to 636 (+65)

Kerry County: 2,394 to 2,501 (+107)

Mayo County: 1,281 to 1,172 (-109)

Meath County: 336 to 31 (-22)

Waterford County: 456 to 438 (-18)

Just over 1.7% of people speak irish on a daily basis. And one in three of them are in the gaelteacht.

It's disingenuous to start throwing figures like 1.77 million around and any discussion which uses those figures for a factual basis is inherently flawed. The numbers are cooked more than Anglo's balance sheet.

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, and in our case, a little under a half.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0630/303054-census/

Census reveals Irish population now over 4.58m.

How is 1.77 just under a half? It's 38% That's fair to call it over a third, but just under a half is hugely misleading.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 01:11PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Actually, sometimes they do.

This goes back to the point ou made to BornarRegis over the popularity of english in europe.
Norwegians may mor may not speak i with other Norwegians, but they will speak it to anyone else from Europe who does not speak Norwegian (or Swedish) which if the go abroad is very likely.

English is popular, so what? I love English too, it's my native language, I read Shakespeare and Chaucer because their use of language is amazing, I also learned a bit of old English, it's a great language. And it's also fantastic to be a native speaker because of the sheer amount of literature available (I am a total bookworm).
What exactly is your point?
I hope you are not imagining I have a problem with English just because I like Irish, that would be bigotry and the love of those two languages is not mutually exclusive.

Then your point is either moot or badly made: what the speak in the privacy of their own home is their business, what they speak to communicate outside of the home, if not Irish, is most likely to be English.

So what? What has that got to do with their living in an Irish speaking household? Mentioned because you didn't understand the difference between "an English speaking country" and "a country with a large number of people who can speak English".

I don't understand what your point with this post is.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 04:39PM

Grayson wrote: »

I'm calling bollox on that fact. Most of those 1.77 million people would barely be able to speak Irish. If you're referring to the census figures, they represent people who say they can speak irish. That included everyone on primary and secondary education but doesn't include that almost one in three (30.8 per cent) of 10 to 19 year olds said they were not able to speak Irish.

The way the question is phrased is bogus. I can speak a smattering of french and Spanish. I use it on a daily basis in work. I certainly couldn't carry a basic conversation. But using the standards that are applied to the census I would be a French and Spanish speaker.

The journal has a breakdown of the figures from the census.

http://www.thejournal.ie/census-2011-1-77m-say-they-are-able-to-speak-irish-400442-Mar2012/

Just over 1.7% of people speak irish on a daily basis. And one in three of them are in the gaelteacht.

It's disingenuous to start throwing figures like 1.77 million around and any discussion which uses those figures for a factual basis is inherently flawed. The numbers are cooked more than Anglo's balance sheet.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0630/303054-census/

Census reveals Irish population now over 4.58m.

How is 1.77 just under a half? It's 38% That's fair to call it over a third, but just under a half is hugely misleading.

You do realise that I am well aware that no where near 1.77 million people are able to speak Irish in Ireland?
I was using that figure to make the point that many if not most of the supposed 250,000,000 people in Europe that can speak English likely also have a quite limited ability to actually speak the language.;)

Rubecula · 05-08-2013 05:07PM

Strange how much harder a language is to learn when you are older. I am English (please no booing at the back there) and in school I started to learn French at the age of 7. I found it very easy. We then moved house and I had to change school. I did not get the chance to take up French again until I was about 13. By that time I couldn't be too bothered about it and my marks went downhill rapidly.

And yet we all live in the same isles so why not teach the younger kids our own heritage. Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic , Cornish Gaelic, and of course Irish SHOULD in my own feeble opinion be taught to the younger folks while they still are capable of learning it. When they get to 11 or sio they can have the choice then of continuing or taking up another language ... Or forget languages altogether. But I am so sad that despite my best efforts all I can manage in my own native languages are a few phrases in Welsh and Irish. (Yes I do consider Irish a native language as my family is 100% Irish ... well some of it is LOL)

emo72 · 05-08-2013 05:20PM

jwkbyrne wrote: »

should learn my own native language again, and it is a beautiful one,

have been watching this thread but wouldnt get involved because im too biased.

i have often heard that term "a beautiful language". and was wondering where that idea came from? is it some sort of mantra to convince people its a language worth learning?

how would a language be judged as being beautiful? i dont think its even possible. everyone would be used to their own language and be comfortable with it. would anyone ever say to themselves "you know im quite glad i speak spanish/irish/english/swahili, because its so beautiful!"

i was told since i was a kid its a beautiful language, could never see how anyone came to that conclusion.

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 05:27PM

Rubecula wrote: »

Strange how much harder a language is to learn when you are older. I am English (please no booing at the back there) and in school I started to learn French at the age of 7. I found it very easy. We then moved house and I had to change school. I did not get the chance to take up French again until I was about 13. By that time I couldn't be too bothered about it and my marks went downhill rapidly.

And yet we all live in the same isles so why not teach the younger kids our own heritage. Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic , Cornish Gaelic, and of course Irish SHOULD in my own feeble opinion be taught to the younger folks while they still are capable of learning it. When they get to 11 or sio they can have the choice then of continuing or taking up another language ... Or forget languages altogether. But I am so sad that despite my best efforts all I can manage in my own native languages are a few phrases in Welsh and Irish. (Yes I do consider Irish a native language as my family is 100% Irish ... well some of it is LOL)

Ok first off you shouldn't learn a language because your ancestors spoke it, that's stupid. Secondly even if you do buy into the ridiculous notion of cultural language learning the English have much more in common with the Normans (French) and the Saxons (Germans) then the insular Celtic languages.

68Murph68 · 05-08-2013 05:34PM

The stats from the census make it clear.

Out of a population of 4,588,252, of whom 1.77 million say they are able to speak the language 77,185 say they speak it daily.

The fact that even with an Irish language radio and television station and the fact that a serious percentage of those 4.5 million will have spent 14 years studying it in school says it all.

It's clear that for the overwhelming majority of Irish people speaking Irish isn't something that they want to do.

There is only a tiny tiny minority of people in the county for whom the Irish language is important enough to speak daily.

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 05:37PM

emo72 wrote: »

i have often heard that term "a beautiful language". and was wondering where that idea came from? is it some sort of mantra to convince people its a language worth learning?

All languages are beautiful. They are part of the miracle of society.

In the case of Irish, it's native-English-speaking enthusiasts desperately need to assert reasons why they spend some much time practicing Irish. If it can be held to be 'more beautiful' than English, it adds to a particular kind of self-esteem they crave.

BognarRegis · 05-08-2013 05:40PM

Rubecula wrote: »

Irish SHOULD in my own feeble opinion be taught to the younger folks while they still are capable of learning it.

Why force people to learn a language which is not their native language? Don't the wishes of children and their parents count for anything?

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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