Stallions

Colonel Sanders · 07-07-2013 12:30PM

From the RP:

Frankel: 126 out of 133 covers are in foal

FIGURES from Frankel's first season at his owner-breeder Khalid Abdullah's Banstead Manor Stud in Newmarket show the dual world champion is proving as successful in his stallion career as he was on the track.

Frankel covered 133 mares, with the last covered on June 13. Of those, 126 have been scanned in foal for a fertility rate of 95 per cent - a figure all the more impressive for the fact six of the seven mares not in foal were pregnant before suffering early foetal deaths.

Twenty-four mares in Frankel's first book belonged to Prince Khalid's Juddmonte operation. If the owners of all the other mares pay the full £125,000 stud fee, and the covering results in a healthy foal, the son of Galileo will generate revenue of £13,625,000 in his first year at stud.

UrbanSea · 07-07-2013 02:05PM

tryfix wrote: »

There have been a few false dawns of new non-Coolmore potential super stallions. The likes of Pivotal, Invincible Spirit, Shamardal, Cape Cross, even Dansili and Oasis Dream have been a bit stop start and almost challenging Galileo some years only to fall back again. Having a few really excellent crops and individuals every year, but not guaranteed to dominate their rivals.

Dubawi looks promising, but not exciting and would seem to be a good source of Gp 1 winners without having the wherewithal to take a sires title. New Approach seems to have been boosted by his stamina laden stocks ability to stay 12f at Epsom. Bar the truly excellent Dawn Approach, his stock look a bit short of superstar material and possibly consistency. Unless he gets the mares to kick on from his excellent start, then he will settle into a role of potential classic winning producer when stamina is to the fore, but he won't have the constant stream of Gp1 winning 2yo's and multiple classic winning horses that would see him challenge for the title every year. There's just too much competition for the good mares, with all the other really attractive stallions around at the moment.

As good as Dansili,Oasis Dream and Invincible Spirit are they could reply do with a classic winner. Would Power be the last classic winner from those?

Not so sure Darley Europe are as good se they seem to think. Would you want to send a mare to Shamardal st 50k, Dubawi has thrown out some gr.1 winners but plenty of them are Italian or Meydan gr.1s.

What do you think of their American ones, Bernardini and Medaglia D'Oro are the two most expensive in America, Godolphin have had a few of them over here but not done much

tryfix · 07-07-2013 07:36PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

As good as Dansili,Oasis Dream and Invincible Spirit are they could reply do with a classic winner. Would Power be the last classic winner from those?

They are excellent sires, but they do come up short on the classic front, I can't think of any other classic winners they've had at all. Which makes you wonder about how good they really are.

Not so sure Darley Europe are as good se they seem to think. Would you want to send a mare to Shamardal st 50k, Dubawi has thrown out some gr.1 winners but plenty of them are Italian or Meydan gr.1s.

Funnily enough, the eclipse one two were by Dubawi and Shamardal. I wouldn't be wild about either of them as sires, would rather pay €20k for Holy Roman Emperor ( quite taken by his Morandi as a possible outsider for the Arc ) than £50k for Shamardal. Dubawi has some depth to his stud record, but I'm still not convinced he's really special

What do you think of their American ones, Bernardini and Medaglia D'Oro are the two most expensive in America, Godolphin have had a few of them over here but not done much

The American ones don't seem to be suited to producing top european racing stock in the modern era. There's a blend of speed and stamina required to produce European classic horses and US breeding stock don't seem to have that quality depth of stamina to really fit the bill as classic horses here. Even sprinters like Pivotal have a DI of 1.20, Invincible Spirit 1.95 and Oasis Dream 1.83, which makes them stamina laden compared to Bernardini DI 3.19. Medaglia D'oro has the stamina in him, but is probably breeding to stock without any classic tested quality stamina in them.

UrbanSea · 07-07-2013 08:02PM

Have liked Holy Roman big time and was really taken with Morandi when he got his group 1 at the last back end but was a little disappointed with him this year,does he need heavy groin?

Only other classic one I can think of is the French filly that won the dual guineas from the stewards she was invincible spirit.

tryfix · 07-07-2013 08:32PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Have liked Holy Roman big time and was really taken with Morandi when he got his group 1 at the last back end but was a little disappointed with him this year,does he need heavy groin?

He was finishing really well on good ground when just beaten 1 3/4l in the French 2,000 guineas, and was again finishing well in 2nd behind Intello in the French Derby on Good to soft. On a line through Shikarpour, he's 2l superior to Ascot winner Remote. Not bad form for a horse who won a 2yo 10f Gp1 by 7l on Heavy ground. Should come into his own over a trip and soft ground would probably improve him again.

UrbanSea · 07-07-2013 08:44PM

Are you saying I need to have my weeks wages on him each way at 50a

tryfix · 07-07-2013 09:27PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Are you saying I need to have my weeks wages on him each way at 50a

Nah, wages are too hard to come by to be throwing them away.

He's just one to have on the watch list, if he starts to show that he's up to it he'll still be underestimated and he'll still be value.

Thought we should start an Arc Thread, but it's probably too early for that.

UrbanSea · 07-07-2013 09:31PM

TOO LATE. Potential returns 22575

tryfix · 07-07-2013 09:38PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

TOO LATE. Potential returns 22575

I do hope you're only joking.

There's not much in the field anyway, so if he wins something and starts to shorten lay off enough to cover the original bet.

UrbanSea · 07-07-2013 09:48PM

Of course I'm joking hehe.

This could be a poor poor Arc field

UrbanSea · 11-07-2013 03:55PM

Can anyone check the RP stats on broodmare sites and see where Peintre Celebre is this year another gr.2 today cannot believe he stands at 10k when you look at others at that price and more, im on my phone can't see

tryfix · 23-07-2013 03:35PM

A first Group 1 winner for Dylan Thomas, and another Gp1 winner for Peintre Celebre as a broodmare sire. Urban is onto something with that fellow.:)

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/nymphea-a-first-group-1-winner-for-thomas/1322407/latest/

UrbanSea · 23-07-2013 03:55PM

Was going to post that tryfix, ten grand Peintre must be the best value in Ireland

tryfix · 23-07-2013 10:22PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Was going to post that tryfix, ten grand Peintre must be the best value in Ireland

He sure is, has had plenty of quality runners as well as being an excellent broodmare stallion.

I've a feeling Rock Of Gibraltar will be a very good broodmare sire, a bit pricey as a stallion, his stock look a lot better than they run.

I always thought his stock looked well put together and he's had 35% winners to runners as a broodmare sire.

UrbanSea · 23-07-2013 11:19PM

Do you think he's that pricey thought he was fair enough at 17 when you consider he is the same price as Canford Cliffs and is a proven sire gets some nice types Society Rock Samitar won him a classic think there is worse value around

tryfix · 24-07-2013 01:01AM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Do you think he's that pricey thought he was fair enough at 17 when you consider he is the same price as Canford Cliffs and is a proven sire gets some nice types Society Rock Samitar won him a classic think there is worse value around

He has a lot of nice horses that wouldn't set the world on fire and his fee has stayed fairly high even though his sales figures have been dropping. A bit of an inbetween type of stallion, not poor enough to give up on, not good enough to be getting excited about. Would you be happy to spend your 17.5k on him or would you keep looking for something more stirring?

With Canford you'd be buying into the first first few crops hype that can delivers good sales prices, on that basis alone he'd be better value, but long term, 17k would be too much for him.

For that money you could have new stallions like Pour Moi ( don't laugh ), So You Think ( from a multiple GP1 producing mare ), Rip Van Winkle etc. €2.5k more and you'd have Holy Roman Emperor.

€12.5k for the Duke, €10k for Dylan Thomas or the solid Choisir etc and less for plenty of very nicely bred GP 1 winners starting out on their careers..

UrbanSea · 24-07-2013 01:15AM

Ah its ok i probably wouldn't, Rip doesn't look bad value at 20 would take him any day above pour Moi, would be a little cautious with SYT being the first by High Chap at stud.

Holy Roman terrific value didn't he go down to 10k the year before last or last?

I would be quite keen to take a punt on Alfred Nobel at 5, very nice on the dam's side with New Approach's dam three back, quite like his sire Danehill Dancer very good at two but didn't train on, DD is quite unique how many stallions that didn't train on are like that at stud yet he has produced champion sprinters and classic winners over 12 at 3, very versatile

tryfix · 24-07-2013 01:31AM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Ah its ok i probably wouldn't, Rip doesn't look bad value at 20 would take him any day above pour Moi, would be a little cautious with SYT being the first by High Chap at stud.

Holy Roman terrific value didn't he go down to 10k the year before last or last?

I would be quite keen to take a punt on Alfred Nobel at 5, very nice on the dam's side with New Approach's dam three back, quite like his sire Danehill Dancer very good at two but didn't train on, DD is quite unique how many stallions that didn't train on are like that at stud yet he has produced champion sprinters and classic winners over 12 at 3, very versatile

I love that type of horse, athletic looking, precocious and you just know he's going to sire some decent types. I love those type of sires like Danehill Dancer, send them to a sprinter you get a sprinter, to a stayer you get a stayer etc, it's like they're just injecting a bit of class without affecting the stamina of the mother. Danehill himself did the same and Ahonoora was another one.

UrbanSea · 24-07-2013 03:02AM

Think DD represents a good option at 40k if you have it, people seem to forget that he is a one time champion sire, real good value if you look at Teofilo at the same price, Cape Cross at 35 or (as much as i loved him) Henrythenavigator at 30. I remember hearing somewhere about possible fertility issues with him would that do that much to his price?

What do you make of Dream Ahead, not sure i like a son of Diktat all that much especially at 17.5 k though i have no idea what the dam side is like.

Another i like about DD, look how good choisir was and is a decent and consistent sire, look at how poor a family he is from. Guess sometimes you can get lucky and strike gold

tryfix · 24-07-2013 02:19PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Think DD represents a good option at 40k if you have it, people seem to forget that he is a one time champion sire, real good value if you look at Teofilo at the same price, Cape Cross at 35 or (as much as i loved him) Henrythenavigator at 30. I remember hearing somewhere about possible fertility issues with him would that do that much to his price?

DD seems to be on the downside of his career, the price is fair enough, quite good when you look at his sales figures. Depending on what you're trying to achieve he's good value, would rather have Teofilo at 35k myself, he's an underestimated stallion IMO. Can't be having Henry at all until he shows that they train on. All his big winners were O'Brien horses that failed to improve at 3, somethings just not right about them.

UrbanSea wrote: »

What do you make of Dream Ahead, not sure i like a son of Diktat all that much especially at 17.5 k though i have no idea what the dam side is like.

I think he'll make a good sire, don't think he's worth 17.5k until he's proven himself. He'll provide cheap speed at the least from the dam side, with the potential to maybe push into classic territory with Diktat although a cheap sire himself he has a solid enough pedigree stamina wise that could break out in some of Dream Ahead's classier stock.

UrbanSea wrote: »

Another i like about DD, look how good choisir was and is a decent and consistent sire, look at how poor a family he is from. Guess sometimes you can get lucky and strike gold

You can't beat a bit of speed, cheap or not it'll always provide winners and plenty of them, not too much of a step up to hitting the big time when you've got a fast horse out of a top stallion.

Colonel Sanders · 27-07-2013 02:12PM

Another group winning filly for Holy Roman Emperor there at Ascot

UrbanSea · 27-07-2013 04:01PM

Im sure i said it could be a weak Arc this year. It could be the best in years

tryfix · 01-08-2013 10:04PM

Teofilo is really moving up the top stallions leaders board, now in 2nd just ahead of New Approach.

I reckon his Dermot Weld filly Tarfasha is a serious Oaks prospect, a half sister to dual Derby placed Galileo Rock and Saddler's Rock with plenty of stamina reserves.

UrbanSea · 01-08-2013 10:41PM

He is still no PEINTRE CELEBRE

tryfix · 01-08-2013 10:52PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

He is still no PEINTRE CELEBRE

No, he's definitely no Peintre Celebre.:)

Do you fancy Galileo Rock for either of the Legers?

UrbanSea · 01-08-2013 10:58PM

Im not entirely sure there is something about that horse i don't really like, he is real tough and a trier but could be one of those that always comes up short. That said nothing immediately springs to mind for them. Brown Panther isn't one i particularly like but he has improved nicely and could be one for the Irish.

The Godolphin horse out of Melikah could be a top cup horse i think and a wonderful pedigree he runs tomorrow would be interesting over 14 in.the Irish Leger

tryfix · 01-08-2013 11:13PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Im not entirely sure there is something about that horse i don't really like, he is real tough and a trier but could be one of those that always comes up short. That said nothing immediately springs to mind for them. Brown Panther isn't one i particularly like but he has improved nicely and could be one for the Irish.

The Godolphin horse out of Melikah could be a top cup horse i think and a wonderful pedigree he runs tomorrow would be interesting over 14 in.the Irish Leger

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, always coming up short, but he's had a very nicely plotted season, just three races so far and never out of the first three. An much underestimated horse with a Leger pedigree and Wachman is the type to have a tilt at Doncaster.

With Trading Leather and Cap O'Rushes having franked the form of the Irish Derby he's definitely worthy of respect.

Don't think Masterstroke will go to the Irish Leger, Arc all the way if he's trained on and he's a very generous price tomorrow.

UrbanSea · 01-08-2013 11:21PM

Very generous but would air with a bit of caution tomorrow won't be the be all and all. Very similar profile to Cavalryman hope they don't ruin him

tryfix · 01-08-2013 11:32PM

UrbanSea wrote: »

Very generous but would air with a bit of caution tomorrow won't be the be all and all. Very similar profile to Cavalryman hope they don't ruin him

Would prefer if he'd stayed with Fabre and he's only rated 114 despite finishing 3rd in an Arc. Even at that he's the highest rated in the field and the boys in blue are in fine form.

UrbanSea · 01-08-2013 11:44PM

Third but was still beaten a fair way. I can't wait for this years Arc hope to be going are you heading over?

Stallions

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