Stallions

UrbanSea

Can anyone seriously compete with Coolmore? Who are yer favourite stallions?


Galileo has owned the big races world wide this year. Europe,S.Africa and a dual grade 1 success last week in the States,who can even get near half of Coolmore's stallions.

I'd rate them
1.Galileo
2.Montjeu
3.Danehill Dancer


Holy Roman Emperor has really impressed me and you can bet his stud fee will be more than 10 grand next year. Even Strategic Prince is a first year sire who banged out a group 1 winner at a fee of 5,000.

Teofilo has really caught my eye aswell this year.

myfeelings

To put Holy Roman Emperor on the same page doesnt make sense. Yes he had a good year but come on the books he has received where top class. They dont seem to train on hopefully this years bunch will be different but last years crop was poor. Banimpire has done a lot for him also, hopefully he'll do well as many people have burnt there fingers with him.

Acclamation will also be a hot sire at the sales and rightly so

Dansili and Oasis Dream are also there with Montjeu and Danehill Dancer very little between all of them. Juddmonte will have a better grasp on the stallion ranks in years to come due to the fact they are offering higher quality and having a Green Desert, Danehill and Galileo sons at stud will help them. Staying sons of Danehill like Dylan Thomas and Duke of Marmalade will struggle.

None will compete with Galileo though.

UrbanSea

I wasn't necessarily putting Holy Roman Emperor on the same page as them but I was merely saying he impressed me-he seems to be getting precoccious two year olds,something that Hannon would love.


I've said it multiple times around here,Dylan Thomas has far from impressed me. Juddmonte are still playing catch up-Frankel will be their new star,but whether or not he'll be able to produce as diverse a crop as his sire is unknown. I don't think Twice Over will be a good stallion. Obervatory is a nice sire but not known as a sire of sires. Coolmore have a real edge on some of theirs with some really top American pedigrees going back to Mr Prospector,but they all really go back to Native Dancer,but Henrythenavigator has the making of a good one being by Kingmambo
Looking forward to Henrythenavigator's,Raven Pass and New Approach's offspring they should have 2 year olds out next year.

I think some of the American stallions are being underestimated aswell. Scat Daddy could be a good sire and I'm a big Thunder Gulch fan for a stallion at only 10 grand

Snacker

Where's Sea the Stars much riding so far?

UrbanSea

About another 2 years

Nulty

Dubawi will be a very good sire for years to come.

tryfix

That's a very European based point of view, i have lost track of the American Stallions, as they seem to have a lot less influence on our racing than they used to. I think we are in a golden era for stallions in Europe at the moment.

Galileo and Montjeu are in a seperate league to the rest of the European stallions. Beneath that level Danehill Dancer has produced quantity and quality, but there is a lack of Champion middle distance type horses to cement his place as a great stallion.Oasis Dream is the spearhead of the non coolmore brigade, he should benefit from the higher quality mares that his increased stud fee willl bring. You can take your pick from a long list of Stallions capable of producing top class horses. Invincible Spirit, Dansili, Pivotal, Cape Cross, the list could go on but all those stallions are high class.

UrbanSea

He's been quiet enough this year. Footstepsinthesand is leading in terms of 3rd year sires with 4 group wins,ahead of Dubawi and Shamardal

UrbanSea

tryfix wrote: »

That's a very European based point of view, i have lost track of the American Stallions, as they seem to have a lot less influence on our racing than they used to. I think we are in a golden era for stallions in Europe at the moment.

Galileo and Montjeu are in a seperate league to the rest of the European stallions. Beneath that level Danehill Dancer has produced quantity and quality, but there is a lack of Champion middle distance type horses to cement his place as a great stallion.Oasis Dream is the spearhead of the non coolmore brigade, he should benefit from the higher quality mares that his increased stud fee willl bring. You can take your pick from a long list of Stallions capable of producing top class horses. Invincible Spirit, Dansili, Pivotal, Cape Cross, the list could go on but all those stallions are high class.

I think they're making a comeback. I've noticed in a lot of Irish maidens lately that there are plenty of American bred horses making an appearance. I think American stallions represent better value than a lot of European stallions.

Coolmore seem to be purchasing a lot more Juddmonte bred horses too,plenty of Oasis Dream and Dansili 2year olds knocking about Ballydoyle.
I think Cape Cross represents the best value out of those. He was standing for 10,000 when he first entered stud,think he's about the 35k mark now.

Sea the Stars' half brother Born to Sea is bred along a similar line to him so it'll be interesting whether or not he'll get a derby trip. Invincible Spirit is hardly famed for middle distance runners but he's by Green Desert like Cape Cross so he's one to keep a particular eye on.

Snacker

UrbanSea wrote: »

About another 2 years

do you mean two years till one races or two years till one is born?

UrbanSea

Until one races.

Snacker

UrbanSea wrote: »

Until one races.

Free money on the way so

UrbanSea

Difficult to say. Being a top race horse doesn't make a top stallion. Mind you,he's bred to be good being a half brother to Galileo,we just have to see whether or not Cape Cross will be a sire of sires

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

I think they're making a comeback. I've noticed in a lot of Irish maidens lately that there are plenty of American bred horses making an appearance. I think American stallions represent better value than a lot of European stallions.

Coolmore seem to be purchasing a lot more Juddmonte bred horses too,plenty of Oasis Dream and Dansili 2year olds knocking about Ballydoyle.
I think Cape Cross represents the best value out of those. He was standing for 10,000 when he first entered stud,think he's about the 35k mark now.

Sea the Stars' half brother Born to Sea is bred along a similar line to him so it'll be interesting whether or not he'll get a derby trip. Invincible Spirit is hardly famed for middle distance runners but he's by Green Desert like Cape Cross so he's one to keep a particular eye on.

I like the Juddmonte operation, it's nice and classy no hype just top class horses. Coolmore are looking for outcross stallions, how many Galileos and Montjeus can they stand. It's strange how a smart outfit like Coolmore doesn't make more use of the American stallions. I can't think of too many that they have had recently, a Mr Greeley i think and of course Henry The Navigator was by Kingmambo , they don't even make that much use of Giants Causeway. They used to buy a lot of storm cats, so maybe they don't have as much faith in the current US stallions as they have in the European stallions.

UrbanSea

I think Henry could be classy,he's a stand out for me on breeding.

Agreed about Juddmonte,not overly impressed by some of theirs though. I'd avoid Rail Link flat out too.

Darley should swallow their pride and go back using Coolmore stallions. At least Coolmore and Juddmonte respect each other and acknowledge they can improve themselves by using each other's stallions.

Nulty

UrbanSea wrote: »

He's been quiet enough this year. Footstepsinthesand is leading in terms of 3rd year sires with 4 group wins,ahead of Dubawi and Shamardal

Where did you get that info? Curious.

According to RP, Dubawi has had 3 G1 wins (17%, Happy Archer in South Africa, Waldpark in German Derby, Dubawi Heights in USA) this year and Footstepsinthesand has none. Can't check all group races.

Monterosso won a G2 in Meydan aswell

Worthadd won G2 in France too.

UrbanSea

It was up on Coolmore. Maybe it's stakes winners,he had 2 listed winners in France and Barefoot Lady was a group 3 winner anyway

myfeelings

Coolmore hype machine machine Urban Sea dont get fooled. FSITS is no way commercial and rightly so he is useless, the amount of good mares he's received at stud and nothing to show. There also very delicate like himself

Cape Cross is a sire who i do not like because they are typically small, light and no width. Without Sea The Stars he would be at €10000 or less now. I dont for one second believe he had anything to do with how exceptional STS was. He does have a nice filly Crystal Capella though. He is no way commercial either maybe an owner breeder type from now on i suspect.

Dansili is way ahead of Cape Cross and Invincible Spirit at the moment. Its an exciting crop to come with those Coolmore mares also.

Pivotals are big and not commercial because people know there soft ground horses who need time.

Oasis Dream is there with Montjeu, Galileo will always be ahead. But OD is top class

Stallions doing well i think are Acclamtion, Exceed and Excel, Monsieur Bond

Foals to look out for Dandy Man

UrbanSea

I never specifically said Footstepsinthesand was a good sire,merely he was doing better than Dubawi. In fact I've said several times I wouldn't rate him as a sire,along with the likes of Choisir,Oratorio.

I don't think that's true about Cape Cross that he'd be less than 10 grand. He had 3 Royal Ascot winners this year and the likes of Behkabad and Ouija Board would stand out for any stallion

UrbanSea

Agree about Exceed and Excel by the way. Some really good two year olds

myfeelings

I think when you bring Bekhabad into it that should really say a lot about Cape Cross over the last two years. Oujia Board was top class but her and Sea The Stars are the only thing holding Cape Cross up. No way commercial Darley will tell you every year he has his BEST book this year or last year and the results aren't on the track or in the ring

But Footstepsinthesand isn't doing better than Dubawi and by the looks of it never will

Cape Cross had a handicap winner, A 2 mile group 3 winner beaten since easily and a 6 year old gelding winning a handicap. Hardly exciting, if Royal Ascot is to go by then Rock Of Gibraltar is very good which isn't true he's he's good but not very good.

UrbanSea

I'm not so sure,he nearly has 10 individual group 1 winners which isn't a bad return.


Footstepsinthesand has more stakes winner than Dubawi this year is what I meant.

I'd rather have Rock of Gibraltar at half of Cape Cross' price that said. Or even better High Chaparral at 25k

Nulty

Just been looking through Sea The Stars pedigree and to me, a fairly untrained eye it looks as though Sea The Stars has great potential to be a great sire. Cape Cross is an excellent sire by an excellent sire. Cape Cross has gotten Ouija Board and Bekhebad. Green Dessert obviously got Cape Cross, Oasis Dream and Invincible Spirit. Mixing all that in with Urban Seas family must give plenty of encouragement!

One interesting thing I noticed about Green Dessert is the number of Danzigs to win the Haydock Sprint Cup......

1989| 1st|Danehill < Danzig
1990| 1st| Dayjur < Danzig
1991| 2nd|Sheikh Albadou < Green Desert < Danzig
1992 | 1st|Sheikh Albadou < Green Desert < Danzig
1993 |7th|Hamas < Danzig (7/7 last @ 7/2 but a G1 winner who was VERY in and out, retired after next race)
1994 |3rd|Owington < Green Desert < Danzig (3rd @ 15/8)
1995| 3rd|Owington < Green Desert < Danzig (3rd @ 11/1)
1996 | 1st|Iktamal < Danzig Connection < Danzig
1997| 2nd|Dantime < Danehill < Danzig (2nd)
1998| 1st|Tamarisk < Green Desert < Danzig
1999 | 2nd|Bertolini < Danzig (2nd)
2000 | 9th|Winning Venture < Owington < Green Desert < Danzig (9/13 on Heavy. Odd ball gelding rated 110 at peak and won only 3 races from 62 starts)
2001| 2nd|Mount Abu < Foxhound < Danzig (2nd)
|4th|Mull Of Kintyre < Danzig
2002 | 1st|Invincible Spirit < Green Desert < Danzig
2003 | 2nd|Oasis Dream < Green Desert < Danzig (2nd)
2004| 5th|Monsiuer Bond < Danehill Dancer < Danehill < Danzig (5th of 19 and at his best when plenty of cut, the ground turned against him that day)
2005 |14th|The Kiddykid < Dantime < Danehill < Danzig (14th @ 100/1)
2006| 8th|Miss Sally < Dantime < Danehill < Danzig
|9th| Kodiac < Danehill < Danzig (9th)
2007 |4th|Mutawaajid < Redoute´s Choice < Danehill < Danzig (4th @ 33/1)
2008 |3rd|Utmost Respect< Danetime < Danehill < Danzig (Run at Doncaster)
2009| 2nd| Fleeting Spirit < Invincible Spirit < Green Desert < Danzig (2nd)
2010 | 1st|Markab < Green Desert < Danzig
|3rd|Genki < Shinko Forrest < Green Desert < Danzig


He's had the 1st or second in the race in 15 of the last 20 runnings at Haydock! (winning 7 of them!?)

7 1sts
6 2nds
4 3rds

Only 5 years in 21 with unplaced progeny.

Quite amazing isn't it? Oh yeah, and Green Desert won it in 1986. But don't bother trying to make it pay this year with Danzig progeny. Heres all his family running in it:

Bated Breath
Dalghar
Delegator
Doncaster Rover
Genki
Hoof It
Masamah
Elzaam
Bewitched


Danzig On YouTube

Nulty

myfeelings wrote: »

Coolmore hype machine machine Urban Sea dont get fooled. FSITS is no way commercial and rightly so he is useless, the amount of good mares he's received at stud and nothing to show. There also very delicate like himself

Cape Cross is a sire who i do not like because they are typically small, light and no width. Without Sea The Stars he would be at €10000 or less now. I dont for one second believe he had anything to do with how exceptional STS was. He does have a nice filly Crystal Capella though. He is no way commercial either maybe an owner breeder type from now on i suspect.

Dansili is way ahead of Cape Cross and Invincible Spirit at the moment. Its an exciting crop to come with those Coolmore mares also.

Pivotals are big and not commercial because people know there soft ground horses who need time.

Oasis Dream is there with Montjeu, Galileo will always be ahead. But OD is top class

Stallions doing well i think are Acclamtion, Exceed and Excel, Monsieur Bond

Foals to look out for Dandy Man

UrbanSea wrote: »

Agree about Exceed and Excel by the way. Some really good two year olds

Excelebration, Margot Did, Masamah and dual G1 winning 2yo in Australia, Helmet, He's going extremely well lately.

myfeelings

Cape Cross is not an excellent sire. His sire Green Desert was an excellent sire and an excellent sire of sires but for me if Sea The Stars has faults its in his pedigree being by Cape Cross and that he's a very big horse.

Yes Urban Sea those three stallions are selling well at Donny

Nulty

myfeelings wrote: »

Cape Cross is not an excellent sire. His sire Green Desert was an excellent sire and an excellent sire of sires but for me if Sea The Stars has faults its in his pedigree being by Cape Cross and that he's a very big horse.

Yes Urban Sea those three stallions are selling well at Donny

I don't know how you define excellent, maybe he's not 'excellent' but he's a top 10 earning sire in Europe and that to me is a premiership sire. Like I said, he's got a lot of high quality progeny.

UrbanSea

I just find it a pity that Kingmambo has been stood down. Really liked him. Henrythenavigator is going to be a hell of a sire I think. Another of his sons King's Best is doing ok,Workforce being his main one

myfeelings

I am wondering how you can say he is an excellent sire, he is a good sire but not excellent. He has had two champions which i agree looks good but not for one second do i think of putting the praise on him for the success of Sea The Stars she was just an amazing mare that he was out of.

I think an excellent sire is one who upgrades his mares stallions like Danehill Dancer,Oasis Dream, Dansili and Invincible Spirit. Other excellent stallions that constantly produce top class animals are Montjeu and Galileo. Cape Cross is a old horse has got brilliant books but they dont seem to come out with a bang every year.

Nulty

Turns out that Danzig didn't have the race this year despite having more than half the field, but another second!

tryfix

Nulty wrote: »

Turns out that Danzig didn't have the race this year despite having more than half the field, but another second!

A fabulous race to watch, probably the finish of the season. You are right about the Danzig line in the top sprints, I used to follow the 3yo Danzigs on firm ground many years ago and it turned up a few nice price winners.

UrbanSea

Lads Dream Ahead is the best sprinter we are likely to see for a number of years.

Nulty

tryfix wrote: »

A fabulous race to watch, probably the finish of the season. You are right about the Danzig line in the top sprints, I used to follow the 3yo Danzigs on firm ground many years ago and it turned up a few nice price winners.

Problem is these days there's so many of them! I really enjoyed putting those results together though. Gives me a much better picture of his breeding line and his astonishing record in the Sprint Cup.

How about a chat about Hoof Its pedigree? He's a Danzig line - Danehill cross. It's all Northern Dancer there.

Who's this Bond fella. Did he own Monsieur Bond and the dam? He's full brother to Ladies Are Forever

UrbanSea

Ya same fella Nulty. I think he's a businessman.


Wouldn't bother too much with Hoof It,it'd mean more to Juddmonte or Dream Ahead's owner if they won. No disrespect but they'll be at stud in a few years

tryfix

I was really impressed by Hoof It and noticed he was ahead a few strides after the line, his head was rising as theirs were dipping otherwise he might even have won. All three of them would make nice sires, Hoof it a son of Monsieur Bond out of a Danetime mare going back to Ahanoora. Looks like a ready made sire for producing plenty of good handicappers and 2yo group horses.

Nulty

tryfix wrote: »

I was really impressed by Hoof It and noticed he was ahead a few strides after the line, his head was rising as theirs were dipping otherwise he might even have won. All three of them would make nice sires, Hoof it a son of Monsieur Bond out of a Danetime mare going back to Ahanoora. Looks like a ready made sire for producing plenty of good handicappers and 2yo group horses.

He's a gelding, I was just interested in where he came from. Ladies Are Forwver might be of more interest in breeding terms as a full sister

tryfix

Nulty wrote: »

He's a gelding, I was just interested in where he came from. Ladies Are Forwver might be of more interest in breeding terms as a full sister

Forgive my ignorance, I just looked at the pedigree it's a pity he's not an entire. He's a better horse than his sire but that's probably due to losing his tackle.

His sister is just a nicely related breeding prospect for producing speedy types, it's Hoof It that had the potential to get lots of the same types if he had been an entire.

tryfix

Nice to see Sadlers Wells last crop producing a Gp 2 winner in the John Oxx trained 3 yo Saddlers Rock in the Doncaster Cup. Is that at least one Gp winner in every crop he has sired ?

UrbanSea

Not sure to be honest tryfix.

I was only thinking today it would be nice if he could win a Gr.1,probably the last one for Saddlers' Wells. Fantasia may do it yet in America

tryfix

Can't find one of this years 4 yo crop that's won a Gp race, there's still time though. That horse was the nearest thing to a hero I've had in sport .

UrbanSea

This article is worth a read. About The Green Monkey,but it's more so about Darley and Coolmore.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/may/07/horseracing.features

tryfix

The Green Monkey is standing for $5,000 at the stud of his former consignors, who bought back a half share in him. All is not lost at least he isn't running around gaff tracks after being gelded.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/47047/the-green-monkey-to-stand-for-5000



Fairy King, Sadlers Wells full brother was a top sire despite never racing.

Would this fellow make a NH stallion, a 3/4 brother to Pour Moi by Sadlers Wells,a full brother to Gagnoa a top filly placed 3 times in Gp 1 races. Sold for €300,000 as a yearling and resold for €12,000 as a 3yo. He won his on his debut beating Cirrus Des Aigles into 4th. It's a good job they didn't Geld him.

Rendezvous (IRE)
5-y-o (26Mar06 b h)
Sadler´s Wells (USA) (11.4f) — Gwynn (IRE) (Darshaan (11.7f))

UrbanSea

Will you link me to his form,I can't find where he made a winning debut.


Apparently there are big questions over The Green Monkey's breeding to be a stallion.

tryfix

Here it is Urban.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home_popup.sd?horse_id=695653#topHorseTabs=horse_race_record&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form

UrbanSea

Thanks Irish racing just had Leicester on

UrbanSea

2 classics for Montjeu today

tryfix

I didn't see Wading today, was she promising, she could be a nice price for the Oaks it must surely be her target for next year.

UrbanSea

She was,she got first run on the winner but the experience counted but she looks a sure winner soon. They were a few lengths clear of a nice filly in third,and well clear of the rest

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Not sure to be honest tryfix.

I was only thinking today it would be nice if he could win a Gr.1,probably the last one for Saddlers' Wells. Fantasia may do it yet in America

Found that group winner in Sadlers Wells now 4yo crop, last years Gp3 Lingfield Derby Trial winner Bullet Train, Frankels 3/4 or is it 7/8ths brother. So that's a Gp winner in every single crop.

UrbanSea

What do ye make of Excelebration being bought by Coolmore?


Canford Cliffs and Excelebration. They don't scream out ''STALLION!!''

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

What do ye make of Excelebration being bought by Coolmore?


Canford Cliffs and Excelebration. They don't scream out ''STALLION!!''

They used to do well years ago with these types, Don't Forget Me and Tirol Hannons 2000 guineas winners were two I remember. A good source of handicappers and minor pattern horses, not sure the market is there for them with so many well bred horses available nowadays. Canford Cliffs was an exceptional horse his Coventry win was top drawer stuff, but he doesn't have what it takes to mix it with the big boy sires. Can't say I find Excelebration too exciting either, he has the exceed and excel thing going on but it doesn't excite me and I'd rather if he had been a top 2yo as well as showing good form this year.

They have a few interesting prospects coming along in Ballydoyle, Power(Oasis Dream), Zoffany(Dansili), Crusade(MrGreeley), Daddy Long legs(Scat Daddy) and a few other nice ones from outside of the Coolmore Stud.

Nice to see Pimpernel franking Wadings form today.

JimDeChamp

Theirs nothing between montjeu and Galileo, if anything montjeu heads Galileo sightly.. As for sires that have their first crop of foals on the ground now, fastnet rock and mastercraftsman take the honours...