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Stallions

  • #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 UrbanSea


    Can anyone seriously compete with Coolmore? Who are yer favourite stallions?


    Galileo has owned the big races world wide this year. Europe,S.Africa and a dual grade 1 success last week in the States,who can even get near half of Coolmore's stallions.

    I'd rate them
    1.Galileo
    2.Montjeu
    3.Danehill Dancer


    Holy Roman Emperor has really impressed me and you can bet his stud fee will be more than 10 grand next year. Even Strategic Prince is a first year sire who banged out a group 1 winner at a fee of 5,000.

    Teofilo has really caught my eye aswell this year.


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Comments



  • To put Holy Roman Emperor on the same page doesnt make sense. Yes he had a good year but come on the books he has received where top class. They dont seem to train on hopefully this years bunch will be different but last years crop was poor. Banimpire has done a lot for him also, hopefully he'll do well as many people have burnt there fingers with him.

    Acclamation will also be a hot sire at the sales and rightly so

    Dansili and Oasis Dream are also there with Montjeu and Danehill Dancer very little between all of them. Juddmonte will have a better grasp on the stallion ranks in years to come due to the fact they are offering higher quality and having a Green Desert, Danehill and Galileo sons at stud will help them. Staying sons of Danehill like Dylan Thomas and Duke of Marmalade will struggle.

    None will compete with Galileo though.




  • I wasn't necessarily putting Holy Roman Emperor on the same page as them but I was merely saying he impressed me-he seems to be getting precoccious two year olds,something that Hannon would love.


    I've said it multiple times around here,Dylan Thomas has far from impressed me. Juddmonte are still playing catch up-Frankel will be their new star,but whether or not he'll be able to produce as diverse a crop as his sire is unknown. I don't think Twice Over will be a good stallion. Obervatory is a nice sire but not known as a sire of sires. Coolmore have a real edge on some of theirs with some really top American pedigrees going back to Mr Prospector,but they all really go back to Native Dancer,but Henrythenavigator has the making of a good one being by Kingmambo
    Looking forward to Henrythenavigator's,Raven Pass and New Approach's offspring they should have 2 year olds out next year.

    I think some of the American stallions are being underestimated aswell. Scat Daddy could be a good sire and I'm a big Thunder Gulch fan for a stallion at only 10 grand




  • Where's Sea the Stars much riding so far?




  • About another 2 years




  • Dubawi will be a very good sire for years to come.


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  • That's a very European based point of view, i have lost track of the American Stallions, as they seem to have a lot less influence on our racing than they used to. I think we are in a golden era for stallions in Europe at the moment.

    Galileo and Montjeu are in a seperate league to the rest of the European stallions. Beneath that level Danehill Dancer has produced quantity and quality, but there is a lack of Champion middle distance type horses to cement his place as a great stallion.Oasis Dream is the spearhead of the non coolmore brigade, he should benefit from the higher quality mares that his increased stud fee willl bring. You can take your pick from a long list of Stallions capable of producing top class horses. Invincible Spirit, Dansili, Pivotal, Cape Cross, the list could go on but all those stallions are high class.




  • He's been quiet enough this year. Footstepsinthesand is leading in terms of 3rd year sires with 4 group wins,ahead of Dubawi and Shamardal




  • tryfix wrote: »
    That's a very European based point of view, i have lost track of the American Stallions, as they seem to have a lot less influence on our racing than they used to. I think we are in a golden era for stallions in Europe at the moment.

    Galileo and Montjeu are in a seperate league to the rest of the European stallions. Beneath that level Danehill Dancer has produced quantity and quality, but there is a lack of Champion middle distance type horses to cement his place as a great stallion.Oasis Dream is the spearhead of the non coolmore brigade, he should benefit from the higher quality mares that his increased stud fee willl bring. You can take your pick from a long list of Stallions capable of producing top class horses. Invincible Spirit, Dansili, Pivotal, Cape Cross, the list could go on but all those stallions are high class.

    I think they're making a comeback. I've noticed in a lot of Irish maidens lately that there are plenty of American bred horses making an appearance. I think American stallions represent better value than a lot of European stallions.

    Coolmore seem to be purchasing a lot more Juddmonte bred horses too,plenty of Oasis Dream and Dansili 2year olds knocking about Ballydoyle.
    I think Cape Cross represents the best value out of those. He was standing for 10,000 when he first entered stud,think he's about the 35k mark now.

    Sea the Stars' half brother Born to Sea is bred along a similar line to him so it'll be interesting whether or not he'll get a derby trip. Invincible Spirit is hardly famed for middle distance runners but he's by Green Desert like Cape Cross so he's one to keep a particular eye on.




  • UrbanSea wrote: »
    About another 2 years

    do you mean two years till one races or two years till one is born?




  • Until one races.


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  • UrbanSea wrote: »
    Until one races.

    Free money on the way so




  • Difficult to say. Being a top race horse doesn't make a top stallion. Mind you,he's bred to be good being a half brother to Galileo,we just have to see whether or not Cape Cross will be a sire of sires




  • UrbanSea wrote: »
    I think they're making a comeback. I've noticed in a lot of Irish maidens lately that there are plenty of American bred horses making an appearance. I think American stallions represent better value than a lot of European stallions.

    Coolmore seem to be purchasing a lot more Juddmonte bred horses too,plenty of Oasis Dream and Dansili 2year olds knocking about Ballydoyle.
    I think Cape Cross represents the best value out of those. He was standing for 10,000 when he first entered stud,think he's about the 35k mark now.

    Sea the Stars' half brother Born to Sea is bred along a similar line to him so it'll be interesting whether or not he'll get a derby trip. Invincible Spirit is hardly famed for middle distance runners but he's by Green Desert like Cape Cross so he's one to keep a particular eye on.
    I like the Juddmonte operation, it's nice and classy no hype just top class horses. Coolmore are looking for outcross stallions, how many Galileos and Montjeus can they stand. It's strange how a smart outfit like Coolmore doesn't make more use of the American stallions. I can't think of too many that they have had recently, a Mr Greeley i think and of course Henry The Navigator was by Kingmambo , they don't even make that much use of Giants Causeway. They used to buy a lot of storm cats, so maybe they don't have as much faith in the current US stallions as they have in the European stallions.




  • I think Henry could be classy,he's a stand out for me on breeding.

    Agreed about Juddmonte,not overly impressed by some of theirs though. I'd avoid Rail Link flat out too.

    Darley should swallow their pride and go back using Coolmore stallions. At least Coolmore and Juddmonte respect each other and acknowledge they can improve themselves by using each other's stallions.




  • UrbanSea wrote: »
    He's been quiet enough this year. Footstepsinthesand is leading in terms of 3rd year sires with 4 group wins,ahead of Dubawi and Shamardal

    Where did you get that info? Curious.

    According to RP, Dubawi has had 3 G1 wins (17%, Happy Archer in South Africa, Waldpark in German Derby, Dubawi Heights in USA) this year and Footstepsinthesand has none. Can't check all group races.

    Monterosso won a G2 in Meydan aswell

    Worthadd won G2 in France too.




  • It was up on Coolmore. Maybe it's stakes winners,he had 2 listed winners in France and Barefoot Lady was a group 3 winner anyway




  • Coolmore hype machine machine Urban Sea dont get fooled. FSITS is no way commercial and rightly so he is useless, the amount of good mares he's received at stud and nothing to show. There also very delicate like himself

    Cape Cross is a sire who i do not like because they are typically small, light and no width. Without Sea The Stars he would be at €10000 or less now. I dont for one second believe he had anything to do with how exceptional STS was. He does have a nice filly Crystal Capella though. He is no way commercial either maybe an owner breeder type from now on i suspect.

    Dansili is way ahead of Cape Cross and Invincible Spirit at the moment. Its an exciting crop to come with those Coolmore mares also.

    Pivotals are big and not commercial because people know there soft ground horses who need time.

    Oasis Dream is there with Montjeu, Galileo will always be ahead. But OD is top class

    Stallions doing well i think are Acclamtion, Exceed and Excel, Monsieur Bond

    Foals to look out for Dandy Man




  • I never specifically said Footstepsinthesand was a good sire,merely he was doing better than Dubawi. In fact I've said several times I wouldn't rate him as a sire,along with the likes of Choisir,Oratorio.

    I don't think that's true about Cape Cross that he'd be less than 10 grand. He had 3 Royal Ascot winners this year and the likes of Behkabad and Ouija Board would stand out for any stallion




  • Agree about Exceed and Excel by the way. Some really good two year olds




  • I think when you bring Bekhabad into it that should really say a lot about Cape Cross over the last two years. Oujia Board was top class but her and Sea The Stars are the only thing holding Cape Cross up. No way commercial Darley will tell you every year he has his BEST book this year or last year and the results aren't on the track or in the ring

    But Footstepsinthesand isn't doing better than Dubawi and by the looks of it never will

    Cape Cross had a handicap winner, A 2 mile group 3 winner beaten since easily and a 6 year old gelding winning a handicap. Hardly exciting, if Royal Ascot is to go by then Rock Of Gibraltar is very good which isn't true he's he's good but not very good.


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  • I'm not so sure,he nearly has 10 individual group 1 winners which isn't a bad return.


    Footstepsinthesand has more stakes winner than Dubawi this year is what I meant.

    I'd rather have Rock of Gibraltar at half of Cape Cross' price that said. Or even better High Chaparral at 25k




  • Just been looking through Sea The Stars pedigree and to me, a fairly untrained eye it looks as though Sea The Stars has great potential to be a great sire. Cape Cross is an excellent sire by an excellent sire. Cape Cross has gotten Ouija Board and Bekhebad. Green Dessert obviously got Cape Cross, Oasis Dream and Invincible Spirit. Mixing all that in with Urban Seas family must give plenty of encouragement!

    One interesting thing I noticed about Green Dessert is the number of Danzigs to win the Haydock Sprint Cup......

    1989| 1st|Danehill < Danzig
    1990| 1st| Dayjur < Danzig
    1991| 2nd|Sheikh Albadou < Green Desert < Danzig
    1992 | 1st|Sheikh Albadou < Green Desert < Danzig
    1993 |7th|Hamas < Danzig (7/7 last @ 7/2 but a G1 winner who was VERY in and out, retired after next race)
    1994 |3rd|Owington < Green Desert < Danzig (3rd @ 15/8)
    1995| 3rd|Owington < Green Desert < Danzig (3rd @ 11/1)
    1996 | 1st|Iktamal < Danzig Connection < Danzig
    1997| 2nd|Dantime < Danehill < Danzig (2nd)
    1998| 1st|Tamarisk < Green Desert < Danzig
    1999 | 2nd|Bertolini < Danzig (2nd)
    2000 | 9th|Winning Venture < Owington < Green Desert < Danzig (9/13 on Heavy. Odd ball gelding rated 110 at peak and won only 3 races from 62 starts)
    2001| 2nd|Mount Abu < Foxhound < Danzig (2nd)
    |4th|Mull Of Kintyre < Danzig
    2002 | 1st|Invincible Spirit < Green Desert < Danzig
    2003 | 2nd|Oasis Dream < Green Desert < Danzig (2nd)
    2004| 5th|Monsiuer Bond < Danehill Dancer < Danehill < Danzig (5th of 19 and at his best when plenty of cut, the ground turned against him that day)
    2005 |14th|The Kiddykid < Dantime < Danehill < Danzig (14th @ 100/1)
    2006| 8th|Miss Sally < Dantime < Danehill < Danzig
    |9th| Kodiac < Danehill < Danzig (9th)
    2007 |4th|Mutawaajid < Redoute´s Choice < Danehill < Danzig (4th @ 33/1)
    2008 |3rd|Utmost Respect< Danetime < Danehill < Danzig (Run at Doncaster)
    2009| 2nd| Fleeting Spirit < Invincible Spirit < Green Desert < Danzig (2nd)
    2010 | 1st|Markab < Green Desert < Danzig
    |3rd|Genki < Shinko Forrest < Green Desert < Danzig


    He's had the 1st or second in the race in 15 of the last 20 runnings at Haydock! (winning 7 of them!?)

    7 1sts
    6 2nds
    4 3rds

    Only 5 years in 21 with unplaced progeny.

    Quite amazing isn't it? Oh yeah, and Green Desert won it in 1986. But don't bother trying to make it pay this year with Danzig progeny. Heres all his family running in it:

    Bated Breath
    Dalghar
    Delegator
    Doncaster Rover
    Genki
    Hoof It
    Masamah
    Elzaam
    Bewitched


    Danzig On YouTube




  • myfeelings wrote: »
    Coolmore hype machine machine Urban Sea dont get fooled. FSITS is no way commercial and rightly so he is useless, the amount of good mares he's received at stud and nothing to show. There also very delicate like himself

    Cape Cross is a sire who i do not like because they are typically small, light and no width. Without Sea The Stars he would be at €10000 or less now. I dont for one second believe he had anything to do with how exceptional STS was. He does have a nice filly Crystal Capella though. He is no way commercial either maybe an owner breeder type from now on i suspect.

    Dansili is way ahead of Cape Cross and Invincible Spirit at the moment. Its an exciting crop to come with those Coolmore mares also.

    Pivotals are big and not commercial because people know there soft ground horses who need time.

    Oasis Dream is there with Montjeu, Galileo will always be ahead. But OD is top class

    Stallions doing well i think are Acclamtion, Exceed and Excel, Monsieur Bond

    Foals to look out for Dandy Man


    UrbanSea wrote: »
    Agree about Exceed and Excel by the way. Some really good two year olds


    Excelebration, Margot Did, Masamah and dual G1 winning 2yo in Australia, Helmet, He's going extremely well lately.




  • Cape Cross is not an excellent sire. His sire Green Desert was an excellent sire and an excellent sire of sires but for me if Sea The Stars has faults its in his pedigree being by Cape Cross and that he's a very big horse.

    Yes Urban Sea those three stallions are selling well at Donny




  • myfeelings wrote: »
    Cape Cross is not an excellent sire. His sire Green Desert was an excellent sire and an excellent sire of sires but for me if Sea The Stars has faults its in his pedigree being by Cape Cross and that he's a very big horse.

    Yes Urban Sea those three stallions are selling well at Donny

    I don't know how you define excellent, maybe he's not 'excellent' but he's a top 10 earning sire in Europe and that to me is a premiership sire. Like I said, he's got a lot of high quality progeny.




  • I just find it a pity that Kingmambo has been stood down. Really liked him. Henrythenavigator is going to be a hell of a sire I think. Another of his sons King's Best is doing ok,Workforce being his main one




  • I am wondering how you can say he is an excellent sire, he is a good sire but not excellent. He has had two champions which i agree looks good but not for one second do i think of putting the praise on him for the success of Sea The Stars she was just an amazing mare that he was out of.

    I think an excellent sire is one who upgrades his mares stallions like Danehill Dancer,Oasis Dream, Dansili and Invincible Spirit. Other excellent stallions that constantly produce top class animals are Montjeu and Galileo. Cape Cross is a old horse has got brilliant books but they dont seem to come out with a bang every year.




  • Turns out that Danzig didn't have the race this year despite having more than half the field, but another second!




  • Nulty wrote: »
    Turns out that Danzig didn't have the race this year despite having more than half the field, but another second!
    A fabulous race to watch, probably the finish of the season. You are right about the Danzig line in the top sprints, I used to follow the 3yo Danzigs on firm ground many years ago and it turned up a few nice price winners.


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  • Lads Dream Ahead is the best sprinter we are likely to see for a number of years.


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