Stallions

UrbanSea

Some stallions were a ridiculous price looking back. I still can't believe Giant's Causeway was 100k punts his first year. Imagine spending 35k punts on Golan as well, plenty with burnt fingers there I'd imagine.


Opposite can happen too, didn't Pivotal start off at about 5k ,Dansili at 6 or 7?

carmanard

andyman wrote: »

http://www.agakhanstuds.com/stallion/sea_the_stars_brochure.html

Brochure for Sea The Stars' 2 year olds. Haven't had a chance to look at it myself so not sure what it's like.

Cheers for linking that, there are some absolutely mouthwatering pedigree crosses in there.... And a lot of the same mares have been booked for Frankel too, so his progeny could have an awful lot to live up to even disregarding the sire's stud fee..... Naturally, they won't all make the track and there'll have to be a few duds among them as it ain't an exact science, but I can't wait to see how the STS horses fare out.....

Imhof Tank

UrbanSea wrote: »

Some stallions were a ridiculous price looking back. I still can't believe Giant's Causeway was 100k punts his first year. Imagine spending 35k punts on Golan as well, plenty with burnt fingers there I'd imagine.


Opposite can happen too, didn't Pivotal start off at about 5k ,Dansili at 6 or 7?

All depends on your perspective.

What did Golan's or Pivotal's first crops average? If the relevant year's average yearling sales price correlates with the fee that year, then the fee is "value" regardless of how things work out on the track for the buyers.

UrbanSea

I was referring to performance on track, no idea how they sold though I assume Pivotals hardly went for fortunes at that fee

ArmaniJeanss

UrbanSea wrote: »

Some stallions were a ridiculous price looking back......Imagine spending 35k punts on Golan as well, plenty with burnt fingers there I'd imagine.

2000 Guineas Winner, KGQEDS winner, its not an unreasonable fee really.
(Obviously we didn't know then what an absolute poison for the breed that Spectrum was going to be).

I don't think anyone who plays their mares at that level would consider it 'burnt fingers'. They are usually mares whose owners have plenty of other mares; spread 'em around a mix of the first and second season sires and the established super sires, some progency will be a write off and others a success.

Imhof Tank

UrbanSea wrote: »

I was referring to performance on track, no idea how they sold though I assume Pivotals hardly went for fortunes at that fee

But sure how they sell is all that matters when assessing whether an unproven sire is good value or bad value - for commercial breeders anyway.

Without looking it up, I think you are right about Pivotal's first crop not going for fortunes - you cant look back and say he was amazing value at 6k.

The guys who paid the 6k for the unproven young sire got fair prices for their yearlings, that's all.

UrbanSea

I'm looking at it from a racing point of view as opposed to a buyer/sellers.

Imhof Tank

UrbanSea wrote: »

I'm looking at it from a racing point of view as opposed to a buyer/sellers.

OK - who had the burnt fingers then?

UrbanSea

As an example, owners who sent their mare to golan at 35k and kept the foal to race

Imhof Tank

UrbanSea wrote: »

As an example, owners who sent their mare to golan at 35k and kept the foal to race

Very, very few owner/breeders would do such a thing (apart from the mega rich to whom the 35 means absolutely nothing so never a chance of burnt fingers)

UrbanSea

Good point

Imhof Tank

Out of curiosity, looked up Pivotal's sales stats for his first few crops, which were medians of:

1st crop - 16k
2nd crop -12k
3rd crop - 14.5k

6k was a fair fee for him at the time.

the fella who

mare went too dandy man , last week...hes playing a blinder so far!!!

kksaints

How has Norse Dancer done at stud? Very consistent if a little short of top class as a racehorse.

jayroyal

I am crazy about Dandy Man since he went to stud, I just feel he might have that best bit of Mozart in him and show how good poor auld Mozart could have been as a Stallion.

UrbanSea

Think the European sprinting ranks would be much better than they are if Mozart carried on at stud, what a first crop he had

Sea The Starz

Imhof Tank wrote: »

All depends on your perspective.

What did Golan's or Pivotal's first crops average? If the relevant year's average yearling sales price correlates with the fee that year, then the fee is "value" regardless of how things work out on the track for the buyers.

From my perspective I disagree. Imo it's such a short term view. To judge whether the stallion was value based on what yearling averages say or even for what you got in the sales ring. I'd much prefer a pivotal who didn't sell great but turned out to be a stakes performer as opposed to a golan who sold well but didn't do anything on track. The racecourse imo is the be all and end all, after all without peformance you don't have pedigree and without pedigree you're not commercial. Fair enough if your just buying a mare covering her and then selling her and the foal the year after, but for any long term commitment i think focusing on breeding a quality rachehorse is what matters. You might get nice sales results for the first 2 or 3 foals using first season sires but when the sires turn out to be failures (which 90% of the time they are) and as a result the progeny don't do anything on the track, it'll be very hard to be commercial.

UrbanSea

I'd agree STS.


Holy Roman Emperor's grand dam produced nine sons to stand at stud, surely that's a record

Imhof Tank

Sea The Starz wrote: »

From my perspective I disagree. Imo it's such a short term view. To judge whether the stallion was value based on what yearling averages say or even for what you got in the sales ring. I'd much prefer a pivotal who didn't sell great but turned out to be a stakes performer as opposed to a golan who sold well but didn't do anything on track. The racecourse imo is the be all and end all, after all without peformance you don't have pedigree and without pedigree you're not commercial. Fair enough if your just buying a mare covering her and then selling her and the foal the year after, but for any long term commitment i think focusing on breeding a quality rachehorse is what matters. You might get nice sales results for the first 2 or 3 foals using first season sires but when the sires turn out to be failures (which 90% of the time they are) and as a result the progeny don't do anything on the track, it'll be very hard to be commercial.

It is a short term business when it comes to taking chances on first and second season sires. The vast majority of these stallions' fees are being paid by commercial breeders looking to flip their yearlings before track success or failure becomes an issue. They are the people to whom the concept of "value" is relevant not punters or oligarchs.

UrbanSea

Tank if you base a stallion's success based on sales and the fees paid versus sales in the ring, if Sea the Stars never had a gr.1 winner but continued to sell well would that make him a success? Commercially- even if they fee drops to 10k in ten years but the average is double that

Sea The Starz

Imhof Tank wrote: »

It is a short term business when it comes to taking chances on first and second season sires. The vast majority of these stallions' fees are being paid by commercial breeders looking to flip their yearlings before track success or failure becomes an issue. They are the people to whom the concept of "value" is relevant not punters or oligarchs.

But I also feel the value of using a stallion is not just about adding value to your yearling its about adding value to your mare, and to do that you must have track success. Track success is a huge issue, the performance on track of that yearling you are selling will dictate the price you will get for the next yearling, and the next one, and so on. Just my 2 cents, I've always had a breed for the racecourse not for the sales ring mentality

UrbanSea

Pierro stands at a freshman record fee for Coolmore in Oz after being bought by them for a reported 30 million dollars. This is the same Pierro that Darley sold as a weanling for 110,000.

UrbanSea

What do people make of Lilbourne Lad

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

What do people make of Lilbourne Lad

Excellent form as a 2yo, bit of a strange ( Irish Leger winner as third dam ) well connected pedigree on the Dams side, just over a fifth of the price of his own sire who's stock have sold for high prices. Seems alright to me, what other sires are available in that price range?

UrbanSea

Yeah it looks a strange pedigree with that . Not sure I'd like him, don't think Acclamation will be standing at that price in two years think he's too much. Zoffany would probably be the first one that comes to mind, Alfred Nobel at cheaper is one I'd still take a chance on

the fella who

http://www.drf.com/news/thewayyouare%E2%80%99s-first-winner-scores-churchill

off the mark

the fella who

UrbanSea wrote: »

Yeah it looks a strange pedigree with that . Not sure I'd like him, don't think Acclamation will be standing at that price in two years think he's too much. Zoffany would probably be the first one that comes to mind, Alfred Nobel at cheaper is one I'd still take a chance on

I seen Alfred Noble couple of weeks ago, absolute cracker.

Johner

Nice winner for Morozov at Sedgefield today in the bumper.

jayroyal

What a start for Dandy man , he might just turn out a Royal Ascot winner too . 50% strike rate with 7 winners ans Fahey has a few decent one's. Parbold is his best I hear and will really like better ground than yesterday. I'd love to have a yearling going to the sales in September by him.

sting60

jayroyal wrote: »

What a start for Dandy man , he might just turn out a Royal Ascot winner too . 50% strike rate with 7 winners ans Fahey has a few decent one's. Parbold is his best I hear and will really like better ground than yesterday. I'd love to have a yearling going to the sales in September by him.

Knew about Parbold but did not back him due to the ground and poor price.Far far better horse on good to firm.Fahy didnt back it either so tells you something.He goes to Ascot with him and Eastern Impact.