Right or left wing?

dotsman · 27-07-2013 09:34PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The right claims to be in favour of small government, freedom, and a free market in which there's less of a safety net. The trouble is, they refuse to apply these principles to bankers and bondholders who make bad investments, to corporations, to gay people who want to get married, to people who oppose pervasive government spying and internment in the name of "security", etc etc etc.

Some elements of the right are ok, but unfortunately for a movement whose mantra is "small government", there are far too many people involved who believe that the government has a right to dictate the personal morality of consenting adults and decide how much privacy we "deserve". F*ck that.

The problem is that you are implying that people are "left" or "right", when nearly everybody holds ideals across the spectrum (hopefully very few to the extremes). A specific idea can be left or right (and, even then, it can get very trick to define), but a person/political party - almost never.

dubaicentral · 27-07-2013 09:58PM

As has been said the whole right or left thing is more or less defunct these days. Yes there are still people who are extreme left or extreme right but I imagine most people these days take the best from both worlds, be they social or economical. And by best I mean what they think best suits their needs and there is nothing wrong with that unless they are extreme in my opinion.

People dibble and dabble out of the rights financials and the lefts social issues and vice versa.

Just think of all the issues we face today as citizens: Abortion, homosexuality, drugs, taxes, austerity, life, death, welfare, anti-social behavior, crime, debt justice,religion, lifestyle (food and health), sex and many more. Now try and find a person who has left only views or right only views on all of the above. I am sure there are some but they are the extremists and I would say they are a minority on both sides.

dceire · 27-07-2013 10:03PM

Right Wing = David Beckham

Left Wing = Ryan Giggs

Simples!

HurtLocker · 27-07-2013 10:03PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The right claims to be in favour of small government, freedom, and a free market in which there's less of a safety net. The trouble is, they refuse to apply these principles to bankers and bondholders who make bad investments, to corporations, to gay people who want to get married, to people who oppose pervasive government spying and internment in the name of "security", etc etc etc.

Some elements of the right are ok, but unfortunately for a movement whose mantra is "small government", there are far too many people involved who believe that the government has a right to dictate the personal morality of consenting adults and decide how much privacy we "deserve". F*ck that.

EDIT: I suppose my big problem with the right is that they assume it's ok to state their beliefs as "small government" when they only mean that in terms of money. Personal freedom is far more important to me and the right wants to strip a lot of that away. You can have all the money you want out of my wallet, but don't dare tell me I can't live with my girlfriend before getting married or that you have the right to rifle through my private mails on Facebook just in case I might be a terrorist.

You can be an economic conservative and be on the left socially. Many people are. Your insinuating if a person doesn't like the a big government s/he's automatically conservative on social issues like homosexuality, firearms or abortion. That's not the case. The US republicans aren't the be all and end all of being right wing. There just one party.
Economic conservatives on this side of the pond wouldn't hold anyway near a liberal view on guns for example.

Son Of A Vidic · 27-07-2013 10:19PM

dotsman wrote: »

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics),

You have got to be having a laugh.

dotsman · 27-07-2013 10:29PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

You have got to be having a laugh.

Nope.

If you disagree, see my post above and counter. I welcome intelligent debate.

GalwayGuy2 · 27-07-2013 10:38PM

Hmm, if you held a gun to my head, The Right Wing mindset would be more individualist, and the left wing would be more on the societal level.

banquo · 27-07-2013 10:39PM

Pai Mei wrote: »

Left wing liberal. (pro-choice, for gay marriage etc.)

Right wing conservative. (pro-life, anti gay marriage etc.)

And all the sh1te that goes with them.

This is beyond idiotic.

dubaicentral · 27-07-2013 10:43PM

dotsman wrote: »

Nope.

If you disagree, see my post above and counter. I welcome intelligent debate.

I would say you are pretty bang on the button about being centre left according to your graph apart from trade unions and entrepreneurship.

Entrepreneurship is actively encouraged in the current climate and the more people that take the plunge and go for it the better for the economy, even if some or most fail.

As for unions. In my opinions unions are for dinosaurs. People are treated well and paid well and get great benefits(not in all jobs but employment law basically eliminates unions imo). The role of the union is gone, they pop their heads up once in awhile to justify their existence and the subscriptions they charge.

Yes there is a large union presence in this country but there is hundreds of thousands of workers in multinational companies who simply do not need or have union membership because they are treated well from the get go. Employment law in Ireland if adhered to has eliminated the need for unions.

Also my entrepreneur and union opinion not being centre left is only based on the above graph.

Son Of A Vidic · 27-07-2013 11:37PM

dotsman wrote: »

If you disagree, see my post above and counter. I welcome intelligent debate.

For some reason (crappy connection tonight) I totally missed the graph you posted earlier. Interesting read. I mistakenly thought you were suggesting that we had a centre left government. Hence, my earlier post was based on this mistaken assumption.

btard · 28-07-2013 12:28AM

dubaicentral wrote: »

I would say you are pretty bang on the button about being centre left according to your graph apart from trade unions and entrepreneurship.

Entrepreneurship is actively encouraged in the current climate and the more people that take the plunge and go for it the better for the economy, even if some or most fail.

As for unions. In my opinions unions are for dinosaurs. People are treated well and paid well and get great benefits(not in all jobs but employment law basically eliminates unions imo). The role of the union is gone, they pop their heads up once in awhile to justify their existence and the subscriptions they charge.

Yes there is a large union presence in this country but there is hundreds of thousands of workers in multinational companies who simply do not need or have union membership because they are treated well from the get go. Employment law in Ireland if adhered to has eliminated the need for unions.

Also my entrepreneur and union opinion not being centre left is only based on the above graph.

Employment law only provides the minimum of protection for employees. There will always be a need for unions, especially in the present climate. I've worked in various jobs over the years, both union and non union. In every case where I had union representation the working conditions, benefits, and general atmosphere were far superior to the non union jobs. I wouldn't pay union fees otherwise and I certainly don't consider myself a dinosaur either.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-07-2013 12:30AM

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

When things are very similar the differences are over emphasised.

By international standards all our main parties are centrist
maybe centre-right or centre-left at extremes , overall it's shades of medium grey, parties like FF will promise what's popular and parties in coalitions will have to compromise and we've had situations in the past where Labour have been to the right of FF or FG on some issues

Frank Lee Midere · 28-07-2013 12:34AM

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Left wing: Political focus is on the people
Right wing: Political focus is on the state

This sums it up pretty well,

http://www.domovod.info/zzimages/PolSpectrum5.png

biko wrote: »

Left - state rule
Right - individual rule
as I see it but there's really a difference on case basis rather.

.

I am glad Dotsman turned up because my head was spinning wondering whether i was left or right.

Pai Mei · 28-07-2013 01:00AM

banquo wrote: »

This is beyond idiotic.

Eh how??

Pique · 28-07-2013 09:01AM

Check out politicalcompass.org.

Very good site on this kind of thing. See where you stand compared to famous figures with their test too. Are you Hitler or Gandhi?

smcgiff · 28-07-2013 09:16AM

I'm left leaning, but always right.

Ireland is a socialist country and a million miles away from the US.

knipex · 28-07-2013 09:24AM

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

Seriously ???

Indefinate social welfare, public housing, medical cards, 20 days holiday, employment rights and we are more right wing than the US ? We are not even the most right wing country in Europe by a long shot...

You need to travel more...

FG would be considered rabid socialists in the US.

Ireland is slightly left of centre...

Hell Ireland is more socialist than China when it comes to healthcare and social security...

Royal Legend · 28-07-2013 09:27AM

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

Yep, when our idea of "left wing" is the Labour party, it kinda sums us up

Augmerson · 28-07-2013 09:28AM

We won't be centre-left for much longer if the Blueshirts get their way.

KyussBishop · 28-07-2013 10:21AM

With regards to centrism in Ireland: Socially we still have a lot of right-leaning policies, and economically...well that's more complicated, but we definitely lean to the right there too:
For the last 30-40 years economic theory itself has been fundamentally skewed to become more right-leaning, and this has affected nearly all countries in the world.

So, economics today has an inbuilt tendency to lean towards the right, and this is because of the use of budget-balancing and debt-scaremongering narrative:
When the money 'runs out', we are told we have to start sacrificing all our left-leaning social policies, meaning every bit of economic trouble lurches countries closer to the right in policymaking.

We don't have truly left-leaning/progressive economics in governments today, because this narrative that uses the availability of 'money' as an excuse for destroying progressive policies, has been extremely cleverly engrained into economic thought among governments, the public and (importantly) academia, by right-wing ideologues (they have fooled much of the world into thinking that leaving workers idle/unemployed, when there is useful work to do and the physical resources to do it, is the right way to run economies because of 'money').

This just so happens to rely upon holding onto economic theory, which completely contradicts the evidence for how economies actually work (so, another common bulwark of the right: ignoring evidence), such as the fact that banks create money through loans (the money multiplier and the idea that deposits lead to loans, is actually wrong).
All of economic theory guiding governments today, gets this fundamentally important thing wrong, which has subtle knock-on effects causing economic theory to get 1: the monetary system, 2: the banking system and 3: debt, all wrong.

It is only recently, that truly progressive economic teaching that takes actual evidence into account, and discards the above harmful narrative - it is only recently starting to gain ground.

gavmcg92 · 28-07-2013 10:31AM

If only we were centre left on our social policies.

smcgiff · 28-07-2013 10:31AM

^^ sorry, stopped reading when you said Ireland had a lot of right leaning policies.

kupus · 28-07-2013 10:42AM

Agricola wrote: »

Left wing - Kind hearted, compassionate, thinking people who believe in helping others

A liberal is someone who will gladly give you the shirt off of someone elses back..

FYP

suicide_circus · 28-07-2013 11:15AM

a bird needs both a left and a right wing in order to fly

NoCrackHaving · 28-07-2013 11:28AM

gavmcg92 wrote: »

If only we were centre left on our social policies.

In what regards?

With the exception of abortion and maybe some drug laws we're pretty much in the centre verging on centre left.

gavmcg92 · 28-07-2013 12:20PM

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

In what regards?

With the exception of abortion and maybe some drug laws we're pretty much in the centre verging on centre left.

Same sex marriage, drug policy and abortion are the three main areas. I would also like to see, on the other hand, a far great separation of church and state.

Again it's all relative to your own views on where the dividing line lies between left and right.

knipex · 28-07-2013 01:35PM

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Same sex marriage, drug policy and abortion are the three main areas. I would also like to see, on the other hand, a far great separation of church and state.

Again it's all relative to your own views on where the dividing line lies between left and right.

I would be considered pretty lefty socially but Abortion to me is a far more complicated issue that either side put forward.

Its not a simple matter of it a woman's body so her choice nor is it a simple matter of abortion = murder.

Liberal abortion laws are not a necessary component of a liberal society.

Drug policy can be looked at two ways, its a social or a law and order issue. I wouldn't be complete against the idea of decriminalising cannabis but making it freely available in a corner store ?? Hard or A class drugs I would have an issue decriminalising.

Same sex marriage is coming, I actually think that by international standards Ireland is pretty liberal in its attitude towards the gay and lesbian community but it is taking the state some time to catch up with society on the issue.

The separation of church and state in already occurring and much faster than I would have though possible even 20 years ago. Again its taking the state some time to catch up with society but the vast majority of my generation are at best a la cart Catholics who wouldn't look at the church for moral guidance on any of the issues above and the generation after that are more likely to look at big brother or the Kardasians (but that could be an age thing). There needs to be a lot of movement in education but even there its happening..

Ireland has gone from being extremely conservative socially to pretty liberal in a very very short period of time (relatively speaking) the changes in society even in my time are huge (and I'm 40).

Personally speaking I have issues with the whole concept of abortion (more so since I became a father) but do support it in limited circumstances which would be broader than those currently allowed.

In terms I same sex marriage I don't see what all the fuss is about.. If Adam wants to marry Steve then so what. it has absolutely no effect on me or anyone else in society so its none of my business.

In general I couldn't care less if someone was purple with blue spots and worshiped a deity that floated above a volcano in the south pacific passing out sparkley blades of grass. As long as they don't to force their beliefs on me or society or force me or others to live by their religious standards then its none of my business.

I do however think we have a far too liberal justice system...

Dracula88 · 16-10-2013 03:11PM

I am a staunch believer in center right wing conservative politics. I am anti populist who seeks to in still anti Left wing policies

Pique · 16-10-2013 04:19PM

Dracula88 wrote: »

I am a staunch believer in center right wing conservative politics. I am anti populist who seeks to in still anti Left wing policies

You must be fun at parties

MonstaMash · 16-10-2013 04:42PM

Apathetic anarchist :eek: :P

Right or left wing?

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