Right or left wing?

steddyeddy

When people say an idea is left or right wing what do they mean exactly. I have beard the same idea being described as left or right wing by different people.

pharmaton

middle of centre
I think of it like a great flying eagle and I have to sit in the middle to keep it balanced.

banquo

Right.

Duckworth_Luas

I'm half left, half right!

Burky126

I prefer the Drumstick

HurtLocker

My take is;

Left wing = More Public Money spent, more public services and higher taxes

Right Wing = Less Public money spent, less public services and lower taxes

It's down to individuals to decide what they consider high or low tax and how much public expenditure is too much or too little.

losthorizon

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

Agricola

Left wing - Kind hearted, compassionate, thinking people who believe in helping others

Right wing - Capitalist crazies who would shoot their own mother if she was between them and a dole scrounger who needed a good kicking.

1ZRed

Does anyone else not have a fucking clue what neoliberals, social democrats or any other shite is or are when it comes to politics either?

losthorizon

HurtLocker wrote: »

My take is;

Left wing = More Public Money spent, more public services and higher taxes

Right Wing = Less Public money spent, less public services and lower taxes

It's down to individuals to decide what they consider high or low tax and how much public expenditure is too much or too little.

Surely too simplistic.

Pai Mei

Left wing liberal. (pro-choice, for gay marriage etc.)

Right wing conservative. (pro-life, anti gay marriage etc.)

And all the sh1te that goes with them.

Ten of Swords

Left wing: Political focus is on the people
Right wing: Political focus is on the state

This sums it up pretty well,

http://www.domovod.info/zzimages/PolSpectrum5.png

Conmaicne Mara

steddyeddy wrote: »

When people say an idea is left or right wing what do they mean exactly. I have beard the same idea being described as left or right wing by different people.

Jack O'Connor?

wendell borton

What's the difference between a social democrat and a democratic socialist?

Duckworth_Luas

wendell borton wrote: »

What's the difference between a social democrat and a democratic socialist?

Isn't it obvious? For example:

Governor of North Dakota, Jack Johnson, is a social democrat.

Governor of South Dakota, John Jackson, is a democratic socialist.

Massive difference!

Peregrine

The traditional left and right wing line is flawed.

Really, you're measuring two things: economic and social values.

Economically left, you're talking anything from social welfare, public services, no completely free market(regulated to stop abuse) etc. or more extreme left ideas like nationalisation of industries.

Socially, they're really liberal. Usually support same sex marriage, social equality, usually pro-choice and so on..

The right on the other hand:

Economically they're capitalists, they tend to support privatisation and free markets. Free market sounds like a blast but it could lead to one person being really rich and others working as slaves. These are extreme ideas though, there's always in between.

Socially, they're more conservative. They support tradition and they oppose things like homosexuality, abortion.

Once again, I'm not tarring anyone, these are usually the more extreme ideas. You chose what values you have. There's no rule than you have to be on either side, same with parties. They could have different ideas and things like nationalism and religion of the country affects this.


On the traditional left and right line, nazism, fascism or just conservatism would be right wing and communism, liberalism and socialism would be left wing. Then there's the centre.

P.S. I could be wrong on some of those things, I'm open to correction.

TheHeretic

Classical right and left had a very real meaning. It's not as clear anymore but there is some basic differences. It all revolves around to what extent the power of the state is exercised over public life & affairs.

People with Left wing attitudes tend/ed to allow the state more far-reaching powers to run services, control education, interfere in the labour market, and to create large tax bases for income redistribution. Left wing is more collectivist as the state overrules individual natural rights in favour of group rights of different economic classes living within the state. Welfare plays a large role, as wealth redistribution serves as a control to transfer wealth to less GDP productive parts of the economy.


People with Right wing attitudes tend/ed to value natural rights first [individual rights, income, privacy, personal labour]. They don't believe that the state is able to correct absolutely every problem of society so reject the view of state inference in matters of property, privileges, taxing and the market. They believe that positive change starts with the individual, not with the state. They prefer to leave economic workings to enterprising individuals who by extension benefit their communities by creating wealth [thus jobs] and better resource management [thus social and economic development].


I myself tend to the right in more ways than to the left. I believe that larger states mean larger corruption, and I can see this as a historical trend. I don't think the state can correct everything, in fact it can make matters worse [like the 'bail outs' - socializing private debt] I think that the state should run the most essential services, like defense, policing, some roading, but that's it.

Most humans are smart, enterprising and eager to improve things, so I think we should retain our rights and sovereignty in order to create betterment for ourselves; whereas as the state can only 'make' things via taxing the fruits of our labour. That's a lot different and very inefficient when we could just do it ourselves.

wendell borton

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Isn't it obvious? For example:

Governor of North Dakota, Jack Johnson, is a social democrat.

Governor of South Dakota, John Jackson, is a democratic socialist.

Massive difference!

Now that you mention Dakota, N. Dakota has a state owned bank and manufacturing industries which by Fox news standards makes it a commie state.

dotsman

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

You have to be joking. Ireland has traditionally been centre-left wing (flirting with left wing) regarding most policies (especially economic). Only on social and religious grounds has it ever gone to the centre-right (some times the actual right).

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics), centre on a few (including some social policies) and still centre-right on religious policies.

Duckworth_Luas

wendell borton wrote: »

Now that you mention Dakota, N. Dakota has a state owned bank and manufacturing industries which by Fox news standards makes it a commie state.

That's Jack Johnson for you! :mad:

Pherekydes

Left wingers care about what people do in work; right wingers care about what people do at home.

Duckworth_Luas

dotsman wrote: »

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics), centre on a few (including some social policies) and still centre-right on religious policies.

So when it comes to fence sitting we're somewhere in the middle?

wendell borton

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

That's Jack Johnson for you! :mad:

N. Dakota has the lowest unemployment in the US, so he must be doing something right.:D

Mr.Prodston

I can certainly tell you I prefer the left phalange to the right phalange

biko

Left - state rule
Right - individual rule
as I see it but there's really a difference on case basis rather.

Tbh I find that the more extreme you get to left or right, the more similar and controlling they get.

Stabshauptmann

I could tell you what it means, but google could do that better. Whats probably more important is what the people you talk to think it means.

losthorizon

dotsman wrote: »

You have to be joking. Ireland has traditionally been centre-left wing (flirting with left wing) regarding most policies (especially economic). Only on social and religious grounds has it ever gone to the centre-right (some times the actual right).

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics), centre on a few (including some social policies) and still centre-right on religious policies.

Point out those things for me please! I would like to be educated.

Stabshauptmann

losthorizon wrote: »

Point out those things for me please! I would like to be educated.

Social welfare is the obvious example (though far left would disagree)
We have liberal laws (though I know many pro-choice would disagree)

Basically, if you are further to the left than Ireland is, then you will see us as right wing. And vice versa. Its hard to be objective on subjective issues.

IMO, Ireland is centre left

btard

The origin of left/right politics goes back to the French Revolution and the seating arrangements of the General Assembly. The aristocrats and supporters of the old regime sat on the right while commoners and proponents of the political ideas inspired by the Enlightenment sat on the left. So conservative ideas came to be associated with the right wing, and republicanism, socialism, and civil liberties to the left wing.

dotsman

losthorizon wrote: »

Point out those things for me please! I would like to be educated.

Always happy to educate.

Unfortunately, one could right a book about this and still only scratch the surface, so a post in after hours is hardly going to be in-depth, however, I will give it a try. I will assume you are referring to economic policies (we can discuss others if you want) so let's take a very high level look at them:

Category|Extreme Left|Left|Centre-left|Centre|Centre-right|Right|Extreme Right

Minimum Wage:|The only wage (Everybody earns the same low wage regardless of their economic output)|Very high|High|Moderate|Low (more notional than anything)|None|Slavery (being forced to work for nothing)

Personal Taxation:|100% or 0% whichever way you look at it (Basically, it can be viewed that everybody gets the same low wage tax free, or everybody surrenders their entire wage and gets a token welfare payment in return to live on)|High, punitive on high incomes|High (progressive taxation)|Medium (little difference between low and high incomes)|Low (typically constant rate)|Token|None

Welfare:|Very high/None (as per above, it all depends on how you view the state payment you receive|Very high|High|Medium (often with term-lenghts)|Low, for short terms (state welfare is low, people are expected to have private savings/insurance to cover illness/unemployment to subside)|Only in exceptional cases (born with disabilities etc - people are supposed to have private savings/insurance to cover the bad times)|None (anyone not able to fend for themselves should rely on family/charity or tough $hit)

Public Sector:|Everybody is public sector!|Very high (most services are provided by the state)|High (typically bloated and inefficient)|Moderate (some inefficiencies)|Small and efficient (strong reliance on private sector to provide many services)|Minimal (pretty much consists of overseeing private companies who provide the services)|Token(virtually all services are provide by private companies)

Trade Unions:|Only 1 allowed (the trade union that runs the state! All others ruthlessly oppressed)|Very strong (most adults are members. Controls much of government decisions across the board)|Strong (High membership in certain sectors such as manufacturing and public sectors. Strongly influences government decisions relating to the economy)|Moderate (strong membership in some sectors, non in others. No real national power, but would be flirted with by politicians)|Low (typically only some companies would have members. No national strength and more inclined to negotiate on behalf of employees on specific matters relating to a specific company)|Minor presence (no legal recognition, banned in certain, notably public, sectors and mainly used to represent/assist employees in negotiations/disciplinary hearings etc|Banned

State Ownership:|The state owns everything (including the people!)|Very high (Some small businesses allowed, but most industries state owned)|High (Private companies allowed in most sectors, but some large state monopolies still protected/subsidised)|Low (State bodies typically only exist in strategic industries where no suitable private alternative is available)|Little to none (a specific industry may be state controlled on a temporary basis for strategic purposes, but always looking for private sector to take over)|None|The corporation owns everything (including the people!)

Entrepreneurship:|Forbidden|Extremely difficult|Allowed, but not encouraged|Some state assistance|Encouraged|Successful Entrepreneurs are the A-list celebrities



Where is Ireland on the above table? Well, one can debate certain points, but I think most people would agree on the following high level classifications:

Minimum Wage:|Centre-left (possibly Left).
Personal Taxation:|Again, Ireland is Centre-left
Welfare:|Somewhere between Left and Centre-left
Public Sector:|Again, Centre-left
Trade Unions:|Again, Centre-left
State Ownership:|Thankfully moving towards the centre (was traditionally Centre-left).
Entrepreneurship:|Hard to say. Different start-ups will tell you different things. Probably in the Centre


So, overall, I would regard Ireland as being Centre left in economic terms. Funnily, when you ask most people on their ideals, most give centre-right answers, but given that most lobbyists and those with political influence (such as trade unions/media etc represent Left and Centre-left views, we never quite get the policies we want)

Wherever you're political idealism is, anything to the right of you is right wing and vice-versa. It's always amusing hearing people with Left-wing views describe those with centre-left views as "right wing fascists" while those with Right-wing views describe those on the Centre-right as "liberal hippies" etc.

hatrickpatrick

steddyeddy wrote: »

When people say an idea is left or right wing what do they mean exactly. I have beard the same idea being described as left or right wing by different people.

The right claims to be in favour of small government, freedom, and a free market in which there's less of a safety net. The trouble is, they refuse to apply these principles to bankers and bondholders who make bad investments, to corporations, to gay people who want to get married, to people who oppose pervasive government spying and internment in the name of "security", etc etc etc.

Some elements of the right are ok, but unfortunately for a movement whose mantra is "small government", there are far too many people involved who believe that the government has a right to dictate the personal morality of consenting adults and decide how much privacy we "deserve". F*ck that.

EDIT: I suppose my big problem with the right is that they assume it's ok to state their beliefs as "small government" when they only mean that in terms of money. Personal freedom is far more important to me and the right wants to strip a lot of that away. You can have all the money you want out of my wallet, but don't dare tell me I can't live with my girlfriend before getting married or that you have the right to rifle through my private mails on Facebook just in case I might be a terrorist.

dotsman

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The right claims to be in favour of small government, freedom, and a free market in which there's less of a safety net. The trouble is, they refuse to apply these principles to bankers and bondholders who make bad investments, to corporations, to gay people who want to get married, to people who oppose pervasive government spying and internment in the name of "security", etc etc etc.

Some elements of the right are ok, but unfortunately for a movement whose mantra is "small government", there are far too many people involved who believe that the government has a right to dictate the personal morality of consenting adults and decide how much privacy we "deserve". F*ck that.

The problem is that you are implying that people are "left" or "right", when nearly everybody holds ideals across the spectrum (hopefully very few to the extremes). A specific idea can be left or right (and, even then, it can get very trick to define), but a person/political party - almost never.

dubaicentral

As has been said the whole right or left thing is more or less defunct these days. Yes there are still people who are extreme left or extreme right but I imagine most people these days take the best from both worlds, be they social or economical. And by best I mean what they think best suits their needs and there is nothing wrong with that unless they are extreme in my opinion.

People dibble and dabble out of the rights financials and the lefts social issues and vice versa.

Just think of all the issues we face today as citizens: Abortion, homosexuality, drugs, taxes, austerity, life, death, welfare, anti-social behavior, crime, debt justice,religion, lifestyle (food and health), sex and many more. Now try and find a person who has left only views or right only views on all of the above. I am sure there are some but they are the extremists and I would say they are a minority on both sides.

dceire

Right Wing = David Beckham

Left Wing = Ryan Giggs

Simples!

HurtLocker

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The right claims to be in favour of small government, freedom, and a free market in which there's less of a safety net. The trouble is, they refuse to apply these principles to bankers and bondholders who make bad investments, to corporations, to gay people who want to get married, to people who oppose pervasive government spying and internment in the name of "security", etc etc etc.

Some elements of the right are ok, but unfortunately for a movement whose mantra is "small government", there are far too many people involved who believe that the government has a right to dictate the personal morality of consenting adults and decide how much privacy we "deserve". F*ck that.

EDIT: I suppose my big problem with the right is that they assume it's ok to state their beliefs as "small government" when they only mean that in terms of money. Personal freedom is far more important to me and the right wants to strip a lot of that away. You can have all the money you want out of my wallet, but don't dare tell me I can't live with my girlfriend before getting married or that you have the right to rifle through my private mails on Facebook just in case I might be a terrorist.

You can be an economic conservative and be on the left socially. Many people are. Your insinuating if a person doesn't like the a big government s/he's automatically conservative on social issues like homosexuality, firearms or abortion. That's not the case. The US republicans aren't the be all and end all of being right wing. There just one party.
Economic conservatives on this side of the pond wouldn't hold anyway near a liberal view on guns for example.

Son Of A Vidic

dotsman wrote: »

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics),

You have got to be having a laugh.

dotsman

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

You have got to be having a laugh.

Nope.

If you disagree, see my post above and counter. I welcome intelligent debate.

GalwayGuy2

Hmm, if you held a gun to my head, The Right Wing mindset would be more individualist, and the left wing would be more on the societal level.

banquo

Pai Mei wrote: »

Left wing liberal. (pro-choice, for gay marriage etc.)

Right wing conservative. (pro-life, anti gay marriage etc.)

And all the sh1te that goes with them.

This is beyond idiotic.

dubaicentral

dotsman wrote: »

Nope.

If you disagree, see my post above and counter. I welcome intelligent debate.

I would say you are pretty bang on the button about being centre left according to your graph apart from trade unions and entrepreneurship.

Entrepreneurship is actively encouraged in the current climate and the more people that take the plunge and go for it the better for the economy, even if some or most fail.

As for unions. In my opinions unions are for dinosaurs. People are treated well and paid well and get great benefits(not in all jobs but employment law basically eliminates unions imo). The role of the union is gone, they pop their heads up once in awhile to justify their existence and the subscriptions they charge.

Yes there is a large union presence in this country but there is hundreds of thousands of workers in multinational companies who simply do not need or have union membership because they are treated well from the get go. Employment law in Ireland if adhered to has eliminated the need for unions.

Also my entrepreneur and union opinion not being centre left is only based on the above graph.

Son Of A Vidic

dotsman wrote: »

If you disagree, see my post above and counter. I welcome intelligent debate.

For some reason (crappy connection tonight) I totally missed the graph you posted earlier. Interesting read. I mistakenly thought you were suggesting that we had a centre left government. Hence, my earlier post was based on this mistaken assumption.

btard

dubaicentral wrote: »

I would say you are pretty bang on the button about being centre left according to your graph apart from trade unions and entrepreneurship.

Entrepreneurship is actively encouraged in the current climate and the more people that take the plunge and go for it the better for the economy, even if some or most fail.

As for unions. In my opinions unions are for dinosaurs. People are treated well and paid well and get great benefits(not in all jobs but employment law basically eliminates unions imo). The role of the union is gone, they pop their heads up once in awhile to justify their existence and the subscriptions they charge.

Yes there is a large union presence in this country but there is hundreds of thousands of workers in multinational companies who simply do not need or have union membership because they are treated well from the get go. Employment law in Ireland if adhered to has eliminated the need for unions.

Also my entrepreneur and union opinion not being centre left is only based on the above graph.

Employment law only provides the minimum of protection for employees. There will always be a need for unions, especially in the present climate. I've worked in various jobs over the years, both union and non union. In every case where I had union representation the working conditions, benefits, and general atmosphere were far superior to the non union jobs. I wouldn't pay union fees otherwise and I certainly don't consider myself a dinosaur either.

Capt'n Midnight

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

When things are very similar the differences are over emphasised.

By international standards all our main parties are centrist
maybe centre-right or centre-left at extremes , overall it's shades of medium grey, parties like FF will promise what's popular and parties in coalitions will have to compromise and we've had situations in the past where Labour have been to the right of FF or FG on some issues

Frank Lee Midere

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Left wing: Political focus is on the people
Right wing: Political focus is on the state

This sums it up pretty well,

http://www.domovod.info/zzimages/PolSpectrum5.png

biko wrote: »

Left - state rule
Right - individual rule
as I see it but there's really a difference on case basis rather.

.

I am glad Dotsman turned up because my head was spinning wondering whether i was left or right.

Pai Mei

banquo wrote: »

This is beyond idiotic.

Eh how??

Pique

Check out politicalcompass.org.

Very good site on this kind of thing. See where you stand compared to famous figures with their test too. Are you Hitler or Gandhi?

smcgiff

I'm left leaning, but always right.

Ireland is a socialist country and a million miles away from the US.

knipex

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

Seriously ???

Indefinate social welfare, public housing, medical cards, 20 days holiday, employment rights and we are more right wing than the US ? We are not even the most right wing country in Europe by a long shot...

You need to travel more...

FG would be considered rabid socialists in the US.

Ireland is slightly left of centre...

Hell Ireland is more socialist than China when it comes to healthcare and social security...

Royal Legend

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

Yep, when our idea of "left wing" is the Labour party, it kinda sums us up

Augmerson

We won't be centre-left for much longer if the Blueshirts get their way.

KyussBishop

With regards to centrism in Ireland: Socially we still have a lot of right-leaning policies, and economically...well that's more complicated, but we definitely lean to the right there too:
For the last 30-40 years economic theory itself has been fundamentally skewed to become more right-leaning, and this has affected nearly all countries in the world.

So, economics today has an inbuilt tendency to lean towards the right, and this is because of the use of budget-balancing and debt-scaremongering narrative:
When the money 'runs out', we are told we have to start sacrificing all our left-leaning social policies, meaning every bit of economic trouble lurches countries closer to the right in policymaking.

We don't have truly left-leaning/progressive economics in governments today, because this narrative that uses the availability of 'money' as an excuse for destroying progressive policies, has been extremely cleverly engrained into economic thought among governments, the public and (importantly) academia, by right-wing ideologues (they have fooled much of the world into thinking that leaving workers idle/unemployed, when there is useful work to do and the physical resources to do it, is the right way to run economies because of 'money').

This just so happens to rely upon holding onto economic theory, which completely contradicts the evidence for how economies actually work (so, another common bulwark of the right: ignoring evidence), such as the fact that banks create money through loans (the money multiplier and the idea that deposits lead to loans, is actually wrong).
All of economic theory guiding governments today, gets this fundamentally important thing wrong, which has subtle knock-on effects causing economic theory to get 1: the monetary system, 2: the banking system and 3: debt, all wrong.

It is only recently, that truly progressive economic teaching that takes actual evidence into account, and discards the above harmful narrative - it is only recently starting to gain ground.