Why can nobody speak Irish?

fishy fishy · 24-07-2013 03:53PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

So in your mind, as long as there is a single speaker left alive, the language is not "dead"? There are speakers of ancient Greek, Latin and Anglo Saxon,but those are clearly "dead" languages, notwithstanding Latin's use in scientific circles and in derived phrases. I would say "don't be facetious" but that's the cornerstone of your argument.

Perhaps you can provide the etymology of the Irish word "carr" which was taught as the equivalent of "car" in primary school?

you obviously did not/could not learn/understand/get to grips with irish by the looks of things on here. :P is that why you prefer to say it's dead - maybe its dead to you, as in individual, but it is certainly not dead I'm sorry to inform you.

Unlike ancient greek, latin and anglo saxon, Irish is Ireland's language, is used on signposts, is used every day as a first language on Ireland's islands, and in the West/south west and in other areas of ireland, is taught in schools, has its own programs (which are a lot better than some of the english equivalents) and even have sub-titles for ones unable to grasp the language. Also one of the best holidays a kid can do while at school is to head to the gaeltacht for a couple of weeks - ask anyone of them what it is like - they love it and its all done in this supposedly "dead" language.

Rubeter · 24-07-2013 04:04PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

So in your mind, as long as there is a single speaker left alive, the language is not "dead"? There are speakers of ancient Greek, Latin and Anglo Saxon,but those are clearly "dead" languages, notwithstanding Latin's use in scientific circles and in derived phrases. I would say "don't be facetious" but that's the cornerstone of your argument.

The cornerstone of my argument is that there has been a continuous unbroken line of native Irish speaking communities living on this island.
I can prove that.

Perhaps you can provide the etymology of the Irish word "carr" which was taught as the equivalent of "car" in primary school?

Why did you want to know that? Is there something wrong with a germanic language ie English ending up with a word originating from a celtic one?

Modern English has quite a few non germanic words in it.

justforlaugh · 24-07-2013 04:23PM

I would love to learn German, German people are great especially eastern Germany woman... they must have some polish blood in them

24-07-2013 04:41PM

justforlaugh wrote: »

I would love to learn German, German people are great especially eastern Germany woman... they must have some polish blood in them

Fair enough.

An Riabhach · 24-07-2013 04:43PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

"Where you come from" is the important phrase there. Irish is spoken by a small number of people in limited pockets of the country. All of those people also speak English (although they may not choose to use it). In the rest of the country, you can walk all day without hearing a single syllable of Irish being spoken for any reason.

As for making the most noise, why do Irish speakers make so much noise... when there's little or nothing to say.

Wrong.

I work with people who speak Irish,I know customers who speak Irish,I know past schoolmates and workmates who are now teaching Irish.We have Dún Mhuire-a facility sponsored by Conradh na Gaeilge,for Irish speakers both fluent and learning,from all over North Tipperary.One of our local pubs regularly hosts nights where Irish speakers gather and speak Irish-including the staff.

A couple of months ago I was waiting at the bus stop in Glasnevin,and I heard two fellas talking to each other in Irish,and they were both from Dublin because I got chatting to them and I asked them.

The Irish language is here to stay as long as there will be people to continue to speak it-and there are,and that includes Northern Ireland.

If you don't like it then don't speak it-but don't knock those who do.

ViveLaVie · 24-07-2013 05:02PM

Il Giornale wrote: »

That's the problem, the systems aims are pathetic and feeble. It shouldn't take any longer than a year to become at least semi fluent with several classes per week.

Learning a language requires a lot more work than that, I'm afraid. University courses in languages don't even produce fluent speakers - some students become fluent but the majority don't. It's estimated that around 10, 000 hours of practice is needed to learn a language.

Even if you divide that to become 'semi-fluent' , it's far and above the number of hours arising from a few classes a week. I'm sure some students could learn in a year - but they'd be the students putting significant and sustained work into language learning every day, and probably immersing themselves in the language at some stage.

It's too high a level for Leaving Certificate.

April O Neill wrote: »

We don't suck at them. I had no problems learning French the way I had with Irish. I'm not fluent in French, but I'd be confident in my ability to become fluent if I wanted or needed to. Not so Irish. Have no affinity for it whatsoever.

This. So very much.

We don't 'suck' at languages in the sense that we are unable to learn them but rather that we are uninterested and unsuccessful. A quick google shows that an EU report ranks us as the worst in Europe.

Also, suggesting you'd no affinity for Irish but did for French kind of defeats your point and implies you only did well with French because you happened to like it better.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's both.

Teaching of English is a lot better because moer emphasis is on grammar and written content and the teachers are native speakers to start with. It's also a muc easier subject to learn and teach when it's the common tongue.

I never once had a class on English grammar in 14 years of school and 4 at university where I actually studied English. Anyway, the aim with English is to develop students' critical thinking skills and their ability to express themselves coherently. That's not really the case with Irish. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Going off on a bit of a tangent here but really Irish, maths and english shouldnt be compulsory in their current form. There should be maths and then mathematical science. Maths just does the basic everyday stuff while mathematical science does integration and differentiation. English should have a basic version that just does grammar etc and literary english where you do novels and poetry. Irish just shouldnt be compulsory for leaving ceet, no reason for it.

Why should we divide English into two subjects?

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

So in your mind, as long as there is a single speaker left alive, the language is not "dead"? There are speakers of ancient Greek, Latin and Anglo Saxon,but those are clearly "dead" languages, notwithstanding Latin's use in scientific circles and in derived phrases. I would say "don't be facetious" but that's the cornerstone of your argument.

Perhaps you can provide the etymology of the Irish word "carr" which was taught as the equivalent of "car" in primary school?

The difference is that those who speak Ancient Greek, Latin and Anglo-Saxon are not native speakers. Yes, only a small number of Irish people can speak Irish fluently and have learned it natively, but no matter how small the number, it is a living language while they exist and continue to use Irish in everyday life. Otherwise, any language with a small number of native speakers e.g. tribal languages, Basque, Welsh, Catalan etc would also be considered dead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-07-2013 05:37PM

kaji wrote: »

All the people giving out about Irish- its not taught properly, this is done wrong, let it die, blah blah blah. Let the people who are not totally stupid speak it, and get on with your own lives. Stop obsessing about your failure. Not everyone can be good at everything but don't begrudge those who can speak a language fluently just because you're jealous of them. PS- to the guy giving out about the Nuacht and thinking that its there for people to learn the language....Moron that is for the people who can actually speak the language, not for you to pick up your cúpla focail. Get a clue.

I'll assume you're not implying that someone is "totally stupid" because they don't speak Irish, as that would be just a little too hypocritcial.

Beyond that, I have no problem wirth my failure. I have accepted it and moved on to things i am good at and that do interest me.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 24-07-2013 05:41PM

you could abandon irish at primary level and just do it at secondary level. some primarys are great at irish, and some do precious little. this can lead to big problems at 2nd level where a first year class (and beyond) contains kids who have a very good level of irish and others who haven't two words to rub together.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-07-2013 05:42PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I never once had a class on English grammar in 14 years of school and 4 at university where I actually studied English. Anyway, the aim with English is to develop students' critical thinking skills and their ability to express themselves coherently. That's not really the case with Irish. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Seriously? From the age of 4 to 18, you never once had a teacher test your spelling ability, punctuation, grammar or correct your essays...? What the hell did your primary school Englsih lessons consist of?

Delevoping expression and criticla thinking, I agree with, but that's more confined to secondary school.

kaji · 24-07-2013 05:57PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'll assume you're not implying that someone is "totally stupid" because they don't speak Irish, as that would be just a little too hypocritcial.

I'm not implying that at all. Just saying that some who are thick and didn't do well at school jump on the Irish-bashing bandwagon as it excuses their stupidity. "Yeah, it's not taught right, that's why I got 20 points in my Leaving Cert...."

BognarRegis · 24-07-2013 05:58PM

kaji wrote: »

Yeah, why not for secondary schools, make it optional. But I don't see how you can make a subject optional in primary school???

Simply take it off the curriculum & make free Irish-language classes available outside of school hours to those who want them. There's probably no need for the lessons to be daily. A couple of hours a week would probably be enough.

Anyone who wants more than that could go to a GaelScoil.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-07-2013 06:06PM

kaji wrote: »

I'm not implying that at all. Just saying that some who are thick and didn't do well at school jump on the Irish-bashing bandwagon as it excuses their stupidity. "Yeah, it's not taught right, that's why I got 20 points in my Leaving Cert...."

Grand, just making sure. When you say "not too stupid to learn it", you should probably clarify, as it could be taken that way.

Slutmonkey57b · 24-07-2013 06:18PM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is called phono-semantic matching and it is a lexicological feature in linguistics, and occurs in every language.

You obviously know nothing about linguistics and are trying to be dismissive and condescending towards the Irish language by trying to make ridiculous insinuations about the origins of Irish words from the English language to try to be ironic.

Looks like it backfired.

PS: 'Gluaistáin' is the word that I and most people were taught and use but 'carr' can be used as well.

Well thank you for chiming in with the name of the process. However, you appear to be a little bit confused about who does not know about it.

One person posted they are totally unaware of the process in question. It was this guy:

Rubeter wrote: »

And what on earth is this "tried and tested method........." crap you are on about, seems you don't know very much about the topic under discussion.

Not me. But don't let me distract from your rant. Your eagerness to use someone else's failing to attack a completely different poster hasn't backfired on you at all.

galwayhooker · 24-07-2013 06:19PM

The only way you can speak fluently in a language is to immerse yourself in it.I speak fluent Irish, spoke fluent german when I lived in Germany for one year and speak a little French.
We have such negativity towards our native tongue which is sad really.When I was in school I couldn't hold a conversation in irish - went for grinds but always liked the language.Decided to study it in NUIG.Failed it in first year but passed in repeat exam.Decided to totally immerse myself in it by getting to know people in my course and going on irish speaking social activities and going on wkends here and there to the Gaeltacht.
Hate the attitude of Irish people always blaming someone else like the teacher they had in school - fault lies with syllabus. the Irish syllabus is ridiculous esp for weaker students.Also money is a factor - never went to the Gaeltacht because coláistí samhraidh are so expensive.Rich kids seem to be the only ones who get chance to go while poorer kids can't afford courses

shruikan2553 · 24-07-2013 06:24PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Why should we divide English into two subjects?

Many people could do with improving their grammar or focusing on other day to day uses even debating and public speaking instead of being able to talk about the theme of love in a poem and what the poet was thinking at the time.

Herb Powell · 24-07-2013 06:38PM

Took a pet to the vet today, and quickly discovered that the vet could speak Irish. We conducted all our business through Irish.

I do not live in the Gaeltacht, and this is not the only place this has happened by any means.

Thread title is sensationalist and loaded.

ViveLaVie · 24-07-2013 06:52PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Seriously? From the age of 4 to 18, you never once had a teacher test your spelling ability, punctuation, grammar or correct your essays...? What the hell did your primary school Englsih lessons consist of?

Delevoping expression and criticla thinking, I agree with, but that's more confined to secondary school.

I did have spelling tests. My punctuation was corrected in the work I handed up. However, I never actually had a class where the teacher said, "Ok, today we will learn punctuation rules" or anything like that. My primary school lessons consisted mainly of comprehensions, stories and spelling tests.

ViveLaVie · 24-07-2013 06:56PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Many people could do with improving their grammar or focusing on other day to day uses even debating and public speaking instead of being able to talk about the theme of love in a poem and what the poet was thinking at the time.

Then surely that should just be incorporated into the syllabus? Anyway, there is actually a purpose to learning how to analyse poetry - it develops critical thinking, which is most definitely a life skill.

Slutmonkey57b · 24-07-2013 07:01PM

Seasan wrote: »

Wrong.

I work with people who speak Irish,I know customers who speak Irish,I know past schoolmates and workmates who are now teaching Irish.We have Dún Mhuire-a facility sponsored by Conradh na Gaeilge,for Irish speakers both fluent and learning,from all over North Tipperary.One of our local pubs regularly hosts nights where Irish people gather and speak Irish-including the staff.

A couple of months ago I was waiting at the bus stop in Glasnevin,and I heard two fellas talking to each other in Irish,and they were both from Dublin because I got chatting to them and I asked them.

The Irish language is here to stay as long as there will be people to continue to speak it-and there are,and that includes Northern Ireland.

If you don't like it then don't speak it-but don't knock those who do.

You're not undermining my point that the use of irish is in pockets, not widespread across the country.

Would Irish be here to stay without massive government subsidies (such as Conradh na Gaelige), forced learning in schools, and legal support (forcing it on road signs and the EU)?

markpb · 24-07-2013 07:08PM

kaji wrote: »

All the people giving out about Irish- its not taught properly, this is done wrong, let it die, blah blah blah. Let the people who are not totally stupid speak it, and get on with your own lives.

I'd be fine with that if the reverse was true and Irish speakers got on with their own lives. The vast majority of people in this country do not speak Irish but insist that every road sign and every document that the state and the EU produces must be written in both languages. They insist that companies should be given grants to set up in Gaeltachts, that students must be taught Irish all the way through to LC and even then, those who sit state exams through Irish be positively discriminated towards. That's without mentioning the Irish TV station, an excellent station but one which would not survive without more money being pumped into it by the state.

And now, most farcically, we have a government body whose sole purpose in life is to order other parts of the government to comply with mandatory Irish laws. If the state itself has to be forced to comply, surely that's a sign that something is wrong?

What's wrong with abandoning that and letting Irish speakers speak Irish when they want and with whose they want? What's wrong with abandoning the pretense that lots of people use Irish because the state has created a cottage industry of Irish speakers, teachers and sign writers soly to pretend that it's still our first language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-07-2013 07:12PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I did have spelling tests. My punctuation was corrected in the work I handed up. However, I never actually had a class where the teacher said, "Ok, today we will learn punctuation rules" or anything like that. My primary school lessons consisted mainly of comprehensions, stories and spelling tests.

Strange. I had loads. I rememebr teaches writing sentences on blackboards with deliberate misteaks that we'd have to correct.

shruikan2553 · 24-07-2013 07:35PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Then surely that should just be incorporated into the syllabus? Anyway, there is actually a purpose to learning how to analyse poetry - it develops critical thinking, which is most definitely a life skill.

Critical thinking is a life skill we should all have but, in my opinion, there are better ways of teaching it than poetry. From my experience with poetry we were told what the poet meant and what we should say, there was very little thinking for ourselves. Studying hamlet did improve my critical thinking though. Poetry and novels didn't help from what I could tell, maybe it was just I enjoyed Hamlet and found poetry to be completely boring.

I still think more self thinking and less "the poet was depressed because of something and decided to complain about it" would be better. Something that you cant just prepare for it by learning quotes and what the poet meant. So could keep the 1 subject but reduce the poetry section to just the unscene and have it as an option along with something else.

Slutmonkey57b · 24-07-2013 07:40PM

markpb wrote: »

I'd be fine with that if the reverse was true and Irish speakers got on with their own lives. The vast majority of people in this country do not speak Irish but insist that every road sign and every document that the state and the EU produces must be written in both languages. They insist that companies should be given grants to set up in Gaeltachts, that students must be taught Irish all the way through to LC and even then, those who sit state exams through Irish be positively discriminated towards. That's without mentioning the Irish TV station, an excellent station but one which would not survive without more money being pumped into it by the state.

And now, most farcically, we have a government body whose sole purpose in life is to order other parts of the government to comply with mandatory Irish laws. If the state itself has to be forced to comply, surely that's a sign that something is wrong?

What's wrong with abandoning that and letting Irish speakers speak Irish when they want and with whose they want? What's wrong with abandoning the pretense that lots of people use Irish because the state has created a cottage industry of Irish speakers, teachers and sign writers soly to pretend that it's still our first language.

Someone should put this on a poster.

The answer to your question is that if that level of honesty were employed, a lot of militant Irish speakers would have to create their own inflated statistics to support their delusion,and they'd spend even more time complaining than they do now.

Rezident · 24-07-2013 07:41PM

They force you to do it, often unpleasantly, instead of making you want to. Push instead of pull.

Rubeter · 24-07-2013 07:55PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Well thank you for chiming in with the name of the process. However, you appear to be a little bit confused about who does not know about it.

One person posted they are totally unaware of the process in question. It was this guy:

Not me. But don't let me distract from your rant. Your eagerness to use someone else's failing to attack a completely different poster hasn't backfired on you at all.

He he he.......That post shows you have realised that what you said about Irish being a dead language was wrong but are unable to admit it and so you're hiding your shame with an attack (and not a good one).

R-1 SM-0

It wasn't your lack of knowledge on how languages develop that annoyed me but your eagerness to slate Irish when nearly all European languages are linked and have many similar words, I bet you don't think every word that sounds similar to an English one in the German or French languages is a sign of those languages weaknesses. Think about it.

ViveLaVie · 24-07-2013 08:28PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Critical thinking is a life skill we should all have but, in my opinion, there are better ways of teaching it than poetry. From my experience with poetry we were told what the poet meant and what we should say, there was very little thinking for ourselves. Studying hamlet did improve my critical thinking though. Poetry and novels didn't help from what I could tell, maybe it was just I enjoyed Hamlet and found poetry to be completely boring.

I still think more self thinking and less "the poet was depressed because of something and decided to complain about it" would be better. Something that you cant just prepare for it by learning quotes and what the poet meant. So could keep the 1 subject but reduce the poetry section to just the unscene and have it as an option along with something else.

Well your teacher didn't teach you properly, if that was the case. I analysed the poems myself, under guidance from my teacher. I wasn't told what to write and I disagreed with my teacher on a number of points. She asked me to provide evidence for my interpretation and when I did so conceded that I should write down what I thought. There were five A1s in my class alone because my teacher taught us well.

If you have a good teacher, you'll be encouraged to think for yourself. The papers are getting tougher and less predictable each year so it's becoming much harder to just learn off a few essays, regurgitate them on the day and walk out with a good grade.

I adjusted to college quite quickly whereas others I knew who were used to being handed the essays on a plate, only to regurgitate them in an exam, struggled.

I don't think getting rid of poetry is the answer, although I agree with you about introducing more unseen material. I also agree that more engaging material should be used.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-07-2013 08:34PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

Well your teacher didn't teach you properly, if that was the case. I analysed the poems myself, under guidance from my teacher. I wasn't told what to write and I disagreed with my teacher on a number of points. She asked me to provide evidence for my interpretation and when I did so conceded that I should write down what I thought. There were five A1s in my class alone because my teacher taught us well.

If you have a good teacher, you'll be encouraged to think for yourself. The papers are getting tougher and less predictable each year so it's becoming much harder to just learn off a few essays, regurgitate them on the day and walk out with a good grade.

I adjusted to college quite quickly whereas others I knew who were used to being handed the essays on a plate, only to regurgitate them in an exam, struggled.

I don't think getting rid of poetry is the answer, although I agree with you about introducing more unseen material. I also agree that more engaging material should be used.

Me neither, but I would like to see something contemporary and relevant added to the syllabus. When I did english (more of a this-is-what-you-need-to-write-to-get-a-good-grade system, but I accept that's not the same everywhere) I don;t think there was anything written in the last 80 years and that reall put me off.

ViveLaVie · 24-07-2013 08:39PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Me neither, but I would like to see something contemporary and relevant added to the syllabus. When I did english (more of a this-is-what-you-need-to-write-to-get-a-good-grade system, but I accept that's not the same everywhere) I don;t think there was anything written in the last 80 years and that reall put me off.

Absolutely, I completely agree. There's some fantastic modern stuff out there!

An Riabhach · 24-07-2013 09:23PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You're not undermining my point that the use of irish is in pockets, not widespread across the country.

Would Irish be here to stay without massive government subsidies (such as Conradh na Gaelige), forced learning in schools, and legal support (forcing it on road signs and the EU)?

You obviously didnt read all of my post.

Whether tis pocketloads or bucketloads,it undermines your theory that Irish is a "dead" language or whatever you like to describe it as.

What's so wrong with official recognition in the EU?

Are road signs not written in English as well?

One mans meat is another mans poison,I suppose.You obviously just have a profound obsessive hatred for the language-that is your own business.

BognarRegis · 24-07-2013 09:50PM

Seasan wrote: »

What's so wrong with official recognition in the EU?...One mans meat is another mans poison,I suppose.

What is wrong with children and their parents being permitted to decide what (if any) second language they will learn?

One mans meat is another mans poison.

Not everyone wants to speak Irish and this should not be interpreted as a 'negative attitude' towards Irish.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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