Phoenix Park Tunnel

n97 mini · 23-07-2013 10:30AM

When I last worked in the IFSC I used Docklands as it was closer to my office.

I didn't use it because of capacity issues at Connolly.

LXFlyer · 23-07-2013 10:39AM

n97 mini wrote: »

When I last worked in the IFSC I used Docklands as it was closer to my office.

I didn't use it because of capacity issues at Connolly.

Well I'm delighted for you.

Whatever about your reasons for using it, that is the reason for its existence - there is insufficient track capacity for the additional trains at Connolly.

Would re-routing trains via Tara Street to Grand Canal Dock suit more people? I would strongly imagine it would.

I am fast getting the impression that you seem to think that all public transport should be designed for your personal specific journeys rather than the majority.

rainbowdash · 23-07-2013 11:05AM

Infini2 wrote: »

It Probably could be done if they had the money. Simple fact is if they did put a scissor crossing in they could run those services into Docklands then thus keeping pressure off of Connolly. Theres plenty of room there to be sure to make it happen and it can be done in other parts of the world so theres no reason It cant be done here.

Station Could also be built at the old quarry in Cabra too if they wanted to and of course they could add an extra platform at Heuston Opposite Platform 10 (which might need some work from this picture)

What is platform 10 mainly used for at the moment?

LXFlyer · 23-07-2013 11:08AM

Nothing. It is out of use.

It was built to facilitate the continual operation of 5 platforms while Heuston was being redeveloped.

n97 mini · 23-07-2013 11:37AM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I'm delighted for you.

Whatever about your reasons for using it, that is the reason for its existence - there is insufficient track capacity for the additional trains at Connolly.

And people use it because it is convenient for them. What's happening in another station they don't use is irrelevant.

You don't seem to be able to separate that the reason it was built is one thing, but the reason it is used by customers is something completely different.

lxflyer wrote: »

Would re-routing trains via Tara Street to Grand Canal Dock suit more people? I would strongly imagine it would.

Statistically it would suit some, and not others. No need to use your imagination.

lxflyer wrote: »

I am fast getting the impression that you seem to think that all public transport should be designed for your personal specific journeys rather than the majority.

Public transport should be as convenient as possible, not designed for majorities etc. If we only designed public transport for majorities we'd have very little of it.

dublinman1990 · 23-07-2013 11:43AM

January wrote: »

The big thing I'm seeing is people saying that Platform 10 in Heuston is at least a 10 minute walk from the main station. You could reroute the busses to stop just at the roundabout outside Platform 10, where there is bus parking, (there seems to be an entrance/exit there according to google maps) and have them stop again outside the main station, problem solved for commuters who still want to get off at Heuston.

I agree 100% with your above post Jaunary. The 145 and 747 buses currently use it to turn their buses around & then go back up to park at the side entrance of Heuston beside the Liffey.

From lxflyer's point of view; I would be in favour of a new train from GCD to Portlaoise to use that extra platform; if the demand is there; as it wouldn't cause much conflict with other train movements.

Although; the idea of using GCD as a terminus for trains from Drogheda/Dundalk or Maynooth may be a very ambitious idea as it might cause delays with Dart movements going in & out of the CC & beyond.

LXFlyer · 23-07-2013 12:23PM

n97 mini wrote: »

And people use it because it is convenient for them. What's happening in another station they don't use is irrelevant.

You don't seem to be able to separate that the reason it was built is one thing, but the reason it is used by customers is something completely different.

Statistically it would suit some, and not others. No need to use your imagination.

Public transport should be as convenient as possible, not designed for majorities etc. If we only designed public transport for majorities we'd have very little of it.

Frankly I think you are descending into trolling.

Your original question was - why are trains using it - not why you used it.

I answered that. Yet when I provide you with the answer to your question, you then proceed to say that's not what you asked.

Time for the ignore button, as trying to discuss anything with you is utterly pointless if I in any way disagree with your opinion. Not least as you are pulling this discussion off-topic.

n97 mini · 23-07-2013 12:26PM

There are still trains using it because there are people using it. You seem to have missed the point that public transport is supposed to be convenient for customers, not for the operator(s).

Captain Chaos · 23-07-2013 12:52PM

n97 mini wrote: »

There are still trains using it because there are people using it. You seem to have missed the point that public transport is supposed to be convenient for customers, not for the operator(s).

That's the point IE still don't get.

dublinman1990 · 23-07-2013 12:55PM

n97 mini wrote: »

There are still trains using it because there are people using it. You seem to have missed the point that public transport is supposed to be convenient for customers, not for the operator(s).

I think your assessment is mixed up here. It does seem that in Ireland; it tends to be more convenient for the rail operator.

From what I understand from IE; Docklands is now normally open during the peak hours.

For the most part; it is barely used at all during the non-peak as it is generally shut down with little or no use. It only provides itself as a substitute terminus if there were problems highlighted at Connolly.

How is that really convenient to rail passengers if they can't use Docklands during the non-peak?

It seems to me to be a pretty wasteful exercise.

Jamie2k9 · 23-07-2013 01:01PM

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I think your assessment is mixed up here. It does seem that in Ireland; it tends to be more convenient for the rail operator.

From what I understand from IE; Docklands is now normally open during the peak hours.

For the most part; it is barely used at all during the non-peak as it is generally shut down with little or no use. It only provides itself as a substitute terminus if there were problems highlighted at Connolly.

How is that really convenient to rail passengers if they can't Docklands during that time?

It seems to me to be a pretty wasteful exercise.

Remember it's meant to be part of a bigger project, now its wasteful but it won't be in the future.

TheBandicoot · 23-07-2013 01:54PM

lxflyer wrote: »

People working across the river staying on a train to Pearse or Grand Canal Dom would be preferable.

I work across the river and while generally I don't have to come in during the rush, on early morning starts I take the train to Docklands and walk as it is much more comfortable and I get a seat, which I would never get on a train towards Pearse.

LXFlyer · 23-07-2013 02:05PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I work across the river and while generally I don't have to come in during the rush, on early morning starts I take the train to Docklands and walk as it is much more comfortable and I get a seat, which I would never get on a train towards Pearse.

I don't doubt you at all on that - but this whole discussion is about bringing trains from the Kildare line to Grand Canal Dock.

The other poster has brought up Docklands which is irrelevant to this discussion as it is impossible to serve without major civil works at Glasnevin Junction.

end of the road · 23-07-2013 04:47PM

i'm glad to hear that finally this under used piece of infrastructure could be open to passengers once again, it is a vital piece of infrastructure which can offer rail connections between not only our 2 major dublin stations but the commuter stations to, should it happen what way the trains will work is anyones guess but i think this coupled with the turn back at GCD and (if IE were any way right) the re-opening of platforms 3 4 and 5 at pierce street and the relevant track layouts being sorted could mean coupled with the new signalling system we could get some of the benefits of dart underground sooner, then when the money is there dart underground could be built, all this would mean a future proof railway for dublin.

TheBandicoot · 23-07-2013 06:27PM

end of the road wrote: »

the re-opening of platforms 3 4 and 5 at pierce street

:rolleyes:

First of all, that's not possible given they have been completely built over and replaced with a new entrance at great expense
Second of all, they are useless, there is no access to them from the north direction. They are/were/would be only useful for trains coming from the Bray direction terminating at Pearse- something that never happens.
Third of all, no amount of track reconfiguration would change this situation. Without demolishing several parts of Trinity College, reducing the platforms at Pearse to the absolute minimum width and destroying the front facade, there is no way to directly connect to them to the main line so trains from the north direction could serve them.

Aard · 23-07-2013 06:35PM

It would be fantastic if stations at Cabra and Phibsboro could be built in conjunction with using the PPT for passenger services. It would bring people from there right into the Dublin 2 / South Docks business district, as well as making Cabra/Phibsboro much more attractive places to live in. A station at Cabra would also be about a 10 minute walk from DIT Grangegorman once it's built - a major trip generator.

Bringing the line into use also creates a "network effect", where there will be far more one-transfer trips possible. Transferring puts some people off, but double-transferring puts people off exponentially more. Now the DART is only one transfer away - very useful considering the important employment centres of Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, and Ballsbridge.

Grandeeod · 23-07-2013 06:44PM

Aard wrote: »

It would be fantastic if stations at Cabra and Phibsboro could be built in conjunction with using the PPT for passenger services. It would bring people from there right into the Dublin 2 / South Docks business district, as well as making Cabra/Phibsboro much more attractive places to live in. A station at Cabra would also be about a 10 minute walk from DIT Grangegorman once it's built - a major trip generator.

Bringing the line into use also creates a "network effect", where there will be far more one-transfer trips possible. Transferring puts some people off, but double-transferring puts people off exponentially more. Now the DART is only one transfer away - very useful considering the important employment centres of Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, and Ballsbridge.

At least you get it.

Grandeeod · 23-07-2013 06:55PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

:rolleyes:

First of all, that's not possible given they have been completely built over and replaced with a new entrance at great expense
Second of all, they are useless, there is no access to them from the north direction. They are/were/would be only useful for trains coming from the Bray direction terminating at Pearse- something that never happens.
Third of all, no amount of track reconfiguration would change this situation. Without demolishing several parts of Trinity College, reducing the platforms at Pearse to the absolute minimum width and destroying the front facade, there is no way to directly connect to them to the main line so trains from the north direction could serve them.

End of the road may be wrong, but your own contributions so far have been based on nothing more than calling it a waste of money without explaining in any kind of detail why that may be. DU is not happening. No amount of moaning from you about the Governnment and vision etc etc will change that. There's no money. This project should have been done years ago regardless of bigger plans. It is not a replacement for DU. Its a stand alone project that increases integration and has potential to introduce additional passengers to the network.

InchicoreDude · 24-07-2013 09:48AM

In that article, its says that the tunnel was used sometimes for GAA matches. I remember getting a special match train from Galway to Dublin a few years back that brought me directly to Connolly. Would that train have gone through that tunnel, or would there be another way it could have done it?

goingnowhere · 24-07-2013 09:55AM

You went through the tunnel

Up until the mid 1980's Galway Connolly would have routed via Moate

Lapin · 24-07-2013 11:52AM

The All Ireland specials from Galway in 1987 & 88 were via Moate, Mullingar.

InchicoreDude · 24-07-2013 03:12PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

You went through the tunnel

Up until the mid 1980's Galway Connolly would have routed via Moate

aah very good. Wish I paid attention to the tunnel at the time now :-(

Irish Steve · 29-07-2013 12:58AM

Connolly - Galway was still available in the late 80's, we went out that way via Mullingar on an Easter special day trip in (probably) 1987 or 88.

At the risk of getting things thrown at me, there is a deeper issue than PPT, it's the whole issue of integration of Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, and using the places where then can and should interconnect more effectively. That's not happening with any degree of sense or urgency, with the resulting detriment to the services to the users.

PPT is one issue, M3 parkway is another, and there are plenty of other examples if one cares to scroll through a few threads here, and I despair of there being any real change any time soon, there's a total absence of joined up thinking at both the management levels of CIE and at a political level.

There are 2 areas of infrastructure that have not been properly dealt with in terms of public transport, the first is Dublin Airport, which is still a resounding disgrace, and the second has just about fallen off the radar in terms of discussion, it's not even clear what the long term plan for the site now it, and that's Thornton Hall, which was going to be the replacement for Mountjoy Prison and the CMH at Dundrum. A link road has been built to the entrance of Thornton Hall from the old N2, but that's as far as it's got so far.

There's been not so much as a squeak about how access to Thornton will be provided, for both staff and visitors, and like it or not, the airport still needs a sensible rail connection to the rest of the network.

The old N2 would be relatively easy to upgrade with a LUAS track, it's reasonably level, and straight, and if it was coming as far as Thornton Hall, it would be a huge asset if it was continued to Ashbourne area as well.

LUAS to the airport would also be a lot cheaper to do than an underground, but that would be too easy.

Jamie2k9 · 29-07-2013 01:08AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

Connolly - Galway was still available in the late 80's, we went out that way via Mullingar on an Easter special day trip in (probably) 1987 or 88.

At the risk of getting things thrown at me, there is a deeper issue than PPT, it's the whole issue of integration of Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, and using the places where then can and should interconnect more effectively. That's not happening with any degree of sense or urgency, with the resulting detriment to the services to the users.

PPT is one issue, M3 parkway is another, and there are plenty of other examples if one cares to scroll through a few threads here, and I despair of there being any real change any time soon, there's a total absence of joined up thinking at both the management levels of CIE and at a political level.

There are 2 areas of infrastructure that have not been properly dealt with in terms of public transport, the first is Dublin Airport, which is still a resounding disgrace, and the second has just about fallen off the radar in terms of discussion, it's not even clear what the long term plan for the site now it, and that's Thornton Hall, which was going to be the replacement for Mountjoy Prison and the CMH at Dundrum. A link road has been built to the entrance of Thornton Hall from the old N2, but that's as far as it's got so far.

There's been not so much as a squeak about how access to Thornton will be provided, for both staff and visitors, and like it or not, the airport still needs a sensible rail connection to the rest of the network.

The old N2 would be relatively easy to upgrade with a LUAS track, it's reasonably level, and straight, and if it was coming as far as Thornton Hall, it would be a huge asset if it was continued to Ashbourne area as well.

LUAS to the airport would also be a lot cheaper to do than an underground, but that would be too easy.

Luas to the airport will be a joke, people want speed and the Luas to the airport won't have this.

dowlingm · 29-07-2013 02:09AM

LUAS trams are capable of 70km/h which is reasonably quick. You just need to implement signal priority and keep the number of stops as low as possible, maybe crossing gates too in the higher speed bits.

That said, can't see LUAS to the airport or Thornton Hall working. The former is too far from the nearest line and the political reaction to building a billion-euro light rail to the Big House would likely be massively negative. The best hope the airport has in the next 10 years would be a go-ahead for a DART spur I'd say.

loyatemu · 29-07-2013 09:34AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

...Dublin Airport, which is still a resounding disgrace...

in what sense is it a disgrace? Its quite well served by public transport.

LoonyLovegood · 29-07-2013 10:09AM

loyatemu wrote: »

in what sense is it a disgrace? Its quite well served by public transport.

Not compared to most airports. There's a Dublin Bus route, there's the airport express buses and there's the country buses. Compare that to say Manchester Airport, which services 19 million people (less than Dublin Airport), and it has several buses - both city and other as well as a train station which is well served (every fifteen minutes at peak time).

markpb · 29-07-2013 10:42AM

CTYIgirl wrote: »

Not compared to most airports. There's a Dublin Bus route, there's the airport express buses and there's the country buses. Compare that to say Manchester Airport, which services 19 million people (less than Dublin Airport), and it has several buses - both city and other as well as a train station which is well served (every fifteen minutes at peak time).

I think this list shows that public transport to the airport is reasonably comprehensive. My one gripe is that Dublin Bus have completely ignored the surrounding areas (with the exception of the Swords road corridor). Anyone I know living in Finglas, Ballymun, Coolock, Darndale, etc) and working in the airport drives there.

LXFlyer · 29-07-2013 11:08AM

markpb wrote: »

I think this list shows that public transport to the airport is reasonably comprehensive. My one gripe is that Dublin Bus have completely ignored the surrounding areas (with the exception of the Swords road corridor). Anyone I know living in Finglas, Ballymun, Coolock, Darndale, etc) and working in the airport drives there.

You could solve that fairly easily by at the very least extending the 140 to the airport and also extending the 104 to the airport (and increasing frequency).

Jamie2k9 · 29-07-2013 11:43AM

lxflyer wrote: »

You could solve that fairly easily by at the very least extending the 140 to the airport and also extending the 104 to the airport (and increasing frequency).

DB need to sort out their airport services, since the 16/A were combined the 16 has become very overcrowded and full by the time it gets to the M1 flyover. Many services are full leaving the airport particularly in summer.

LUAS trams are capable of 70km/h which is reasonably quick. You just need to implement signal priority and keep the number of stops as low as possible, maybe crossing gates too in the higher speed bits.

That said, can't see LUAS to the airport or Thornton Hall working. The former is too far from the nearest line and the political reaction to building a billion-euro light rail to the Big House would likely be massively negative. The best hope the airport has in the next 10 years would be a go-ahead for a DART spur I'd say.

It can but it will be impossible unless its a like the Green Line, I just can't see how they could route it to be quick as they would have lots of stops. Underground is best either by Metro or the DART spur if/when the interconnector opens. Although some more though must go into the Metro plans IMO.

Phoenix Park Tunnel

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