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Phoenix Park Tunnel
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I thought that the Luas was supposed to be the connection between Heuston and Connolly, so it seems a bit odd to be opening another connection.
It's not 'odd' if you want to go from a Dart station to (e.g.) Galway or Cork because currently that would involve a Dart to Connolly, a Luas to Heuston and then a change to mainline rail.
Most people can handle one switch but two is just a pain in the rear end and when you consider the length of the platforms in the mainline stations and the requirement to use escalators and multiple ticket machines changing station, it's just too much hassle for most people.
And that's before you consider the nuisance of beggars and druggies at the Luas ticket machines. Yes, I do have a Leap card but they are still a blight on the system. I was in London a few weeks ago and never came across one beggar at any tube or mainline station ticket machine.0 -
Well the obvious choice was always to use the interconnector, but for years we had to endure the number 90. When the Luas came it was sold as a solution to the number 90. Now we're being sold another solution, but it's a solution to a problem that has already been solved (or so we're told).
Personally I'm in favour of it opening, but I am scratching my head a little!0 -
It's not 'odd' if you want to go from a Dart station to (e.g.) Galway or Cork because currently that would involve a Dart to Connolly, a Luas to Heuston and then a change to mainline rail.
And with the tunnel it would involve a Dart to Connolly, a train to Plt 10 in Heuston, a long walk or a bus ride and then a train home and the fact that the frequency cold never compare to the Luas allows much more flexibility.
Zero benefit and I bet the Luas will still be quicker.
Lets be very honest here, nobody has yet put a constructive argument forward to justify this wasted investment.0 -
I don't remember use of the Phoenix Park tunnel being part of the Platform for Change document around the turn of the millenium, produced by the Dublin Transportation Office (an offshoot of the Department of Transport which was specifically tasked to outline solutions for Dublin over the coming decades).
Nor do I remember use of the Phoenix Park tunnel featuring as part of the Transport 21 program, produced with much fanfare way back in 2005 by several ministers, including the Minister for Transport Martin Cullen, and for which funds were allegedly ring-fenced.
It also didn't appear to feature in the state's 2030 vision transport proposals outlined by the National Transport Authority, yet another Department of Transport offshoot.
Not there in any of them, but now here it is, again.
This idea may have merit. But how are Dubliners, or any potential investor in Dublin, to be expected to believe that Dublin is serious about public transport, when - in an area of government which specifically requires long-term planning - there is more and more evidence of none.0 -
This idea may have merit. But how are Dubliners, or any potential investor in Dublin, to be expected to believe that Dublin is serious about public transport, when - in an area of government which specifically requires long-term planning - there is more and more evidence of none.
This is why the DART interconnector is needed and this is the answer to connecting Dublin railways. Every single station in Ireland will be connected all be it via Dublin.
This has to go ahead as it will connection all trains that run towards Heuston to Connolly and the city centre.0 -
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Used to go through this as a kid on the boat train from Carlisle Pier up through Connolly to Heuston and vice versa, used to be pitch dark with no lights on and driven by one of those two windowed locos and backed into Heuston by a shunting loco.
Can't beat a bit of Haughey era nostalgia !0 -
This is why the DART interconnector is needed and this is the answer to connecting Dublin railways. Every single station in Ireland will be connected all be it via Dublin.
This has to go ahead as it will connection all trains that run towards Heuston to Connolly and the city centre.
Jamie, I don't think that sums it up fully.
The Dart Underground project, which I broadly think would be a good idea, may be the way to go.
But if it was definitely the way to go, as you say, surely progress would have been made during the years when Irish governments were wallowing in cash?
Whether the Dart Underground project is the right way to go or not, it is highly questionable whether it is a good idea to now pounce on an idea which did not feature at all in any of the major state-sponsored public transport initiatives that have been seen this century.
A very significant issue therefore, with this proposed tunnel project, is an obvious admission of planning failure within the Department of Transport.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 5980
Being purely selfish, I'd love it. It'd mean that I could get from my parents house to Galway without worrying about getting a bus, luas and train or two trains and a luas or whatever.
I think it'd bring a lot of cross traffic for people going Maynooth commuter line, and then people from the sligo line going to the Heuston commuter line. We'd actually be able to have a train run from Belfast to Cork.0 -
strassenwo!f wrote: »Jamie, I don't think that sums it up fully.
The Dart Underground project, which I broadly think would be a good idea, may be the way to go.
But if it was definitely the way to go, as you say, surely progress would have been made during the years when Irish governments were wallowing in cash?.
I think that you've forgotten about the fact that during the boom when there was money we were governed by a bunch of uneducated baboons.0 -
Being purely selfish, I'd love it. It'd mean that I could get from my parents house to Galway without worrying about getting a bus, luas and train or two trains and a luas or whatever.
I think it'd bring a lot of cross traffic for people going Maynooth commuter line, and then people from the sligo line going to the Heuston commuter line. We'd actually be able to have a train run from Belfast to Cork.
The connection between Connolly and Heuston would add about an hour if not more to your journey.0 -
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This passes up by Cabra. Nice to take a train journey up there. Good environment. Smells of nature. Trains will go slow as well so plenty of time to appreciate it.
Might have been better if they opened up the tunnel as a public walkway. Dig a hole in the park going down to it as well. Handy if you wanted to walk out to Lucan on a fair day from the zoo.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 5980
The connection between Connolly and Heuston would add about an hour if not more to your journey.
But when you take out that the bus is at least twice the journey time of the train, and the ease of use by simply switching trains, rather than changing mode of transport, it would be a win-win situation.0 -
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I remember one of the scheduled Galway -> Dub trains on Sunday afternoons back around 1998/1999 would continue to Connolly after Heuston. At the time I was living in the IFSC and travelling by train to Galway regularly (prob every other weekend). Can't remember how long extra staying on as far as Connolly would have added to the return journey for me but it was long enough that I never bothered with it - always got the bus over to bus aras/connolly instead as it was way faster. Was tempted a few times (usually when bucketing down outside) to stay on the train and even hung around a couple of times but the wait was too long so I always gave up and went for the bus. If memory serves there were very few that stayed on for the journey over to Connolly.
The long wait in Heuston doomed that particular scheme imo. On the other hand if they'd just diverted those trains to Connolly without the stop in Heuston..0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »I think that you've forgotten about the fact that during the boom when there was money we were governed by a bunch of uneducated baboons.
Has something changed then?0 -
And with the tunnel it would involve a Dart to Connolly, a train to Plt 10 in Heuston, a long walk or a bus ride and then a train home and the fact that the frequency cold never compare to the Luas allows much more flexibility.
Zero benefit and I bet the Luas will still be quicker.
Lets be very honest here, nobody has yet put a constructive argument forward to justify this wasted investment.
Why would you necessarily need to get off at Platform 10?
If they are talking about commuter services, then presumably they mean the Portlaoise stopping services.
Passengers can change at Kildare, Portarlington or Portlaoise as appropriate with no walk.0 -
I can't see the benefits of opening the tunnel for intercity services but it would make better use of capacity for the Maynooth and Dunboyne trains were you have the third option of going onto Heuston as a third station. There would also be the option of Maynooth-Kildare, Dunboyne-Kildare, Drogheda-Kildare services. IMO I think it would be a good idea to use the tunnel until the money is there to build the inter-connector.0
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I can't see the benefits of opening the tunnel for intercity services but it would make better use of capacity for the Maynooth and Dunboyne trains were you have the third option of going onto Heuston as a third station. There would also be the option of Maynooth-Kildare, Dunboyne-Kildare, Drogheda-Kildare services. IMO I think it would be a good idea to use the tunnel until the money is there to build the inter-connector.
You should take a look at the existing rail lines on a map. Much of what you suggest such as Maynooth/Kildare would be complete impractical and involve either huge new demolition and construction works, double reversals etc. Great fun on a model layout but far removed from any reality on the ground.0 -
Why would you necessarily need to get off at Platform 10?
If they are talking about commuter services, then presumably they mean the Portlaoise stopping services.
Passengers can change at Kildare, Portarlington or Portlaoise as appropriate with no walk.
Do you think people will stay on a slow commuter train to get to these stations when it would be quicker to go into Heuston. Its 15-20 minutes longer than intercity services.
The main point is that whatever way you look at it will still take the same amount of changing around services so why bother.0 -
the map here show's the layout of the lines quite clearly. it is a big detour. If you are on a commuter train already then there is the advantage of not having to change, but an Intercity passenger would have to get off and wait at Kildare or wherever for a slower train. It may well be quicker to just continue into Heuston and get the Luas. (best case scenario they could make the station closest to Heuston an interchange point and stop the intercity services there - you'd still have to factor in waiting times though - the Luas is very frequent).0
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Judgement Day wrote: »You should take a look at the existing rail lines on a map. Much of what you suggest such as Maynooth/Kildare would be complete impractical and involve either huge new demolition and construction works, double reversals etc. Great fun on a model layout but far removed from any reality on the ground.
I was under the impression from using the train from Maynooth to Connolly that the junction to your right would bring you over to Heuston. I read on another forum that the tunnel would work for services from the northern line to Heuston. That means that it will work for services from Bray to Heuston.0 -
And with the tunnel it would involve a Dart to Connolly, a train to Plt 10 in Heuston, a long walk or a bus ride and then a train home and the fact that the frequency cold never compare to the Luas allows much more flexibility.
Zero benefit and I bet the Luas will still be quicker.
Lets be very honest here, nobody has yet put a constructive argument forward to justify this wasted investment.
No it wouldn't - with the tunnel reopened you wouldn't need to go to Heuston at all. Using the tunnel they could run trains direct from Connolly or Pearse to anywhere on the mainline network without going to Heuston which means that for most people who can access the Dart, a trip to Cork, Galway or Westport would only involve one Dart and one mainline train with one transfer.
Even without the Dart, most people in Dublin can easily get a bus to the city centre from where you can walk to either Connolly or Pearse. Heuston for most people (unless you live near the N11 and can get the 145) would involve two buses or a bus and Luas so it is nowhere near as accessible as Connolly or Pearse.0 -
I was under the impression from using the train from Maynooth to Connolly that the junction to your right would bring you over to Heuston. I read on another forum that the tunnel would work for services from the northern line to Heuston. That means that it will work for services from Bray to Heuston.
both of those (Maynooth-Kildare, Drogheda-Kildare) would involve reversing the train (or the driver switching ends). Going into Heuston itself would involve 2 reverses due to the direction of the junctions.0 -
I was under the impression from using the train from Maynooth to Connolly that the junction to your right would bring you over to Heuston. I read on another forum that the tunnel would work for services from the northern line to Heuston. That means that it will work for services from Bray to Heuston.
You should take Judgement Day's advice above and look at the map of the rail network. The southern entry to the tunnel was designed to take eastbound trains north through the tunnel, not to take trains coming from the city into Heuston. The service you're suggesting from Bray to Heuston would involve a train coming down the tunnel, going west to a point beyond the SCR, waiting for the points to be switched, then reversing back into Heuston.0 -
You should take Judgement Day's advice above and look at the map of the rail network. The southern entry to the tunnel was designed to take eastbound trains north through the tunnel, not to take trains coming from the city into Heuston. The service you're suggesting from Bray to Heuston would involve a train coming down the tunnel, going west to a point beyond the SCR, waiting for the points to be switched, then reversing back into Heuston.
Had a look at the map in an earlier post. In your earlier post you say that anyone with access to the dart the tunnel offers the best advantage. I assume then that someone wanting to get a train from Maynooth and Dunboyne to Heuston could change at drumcondra for heuston. Would CIE be going down the road of shutting Connolly and Docklands on Sundays to reduce costs and divert all trains to Heuston. The luas most days from 4pm to 7pm is paked beyond capacity even with the increased capacity0 -
Do you think people will stay on a slow commuter train to get to these stations when it would be quicker to go into Heuston. Its 15-20 minutes longer than intercity services.
The main point is that whatever way you look at it will still take the same amount of changing around services so why bother.
You do keep moving goal posts here - saying firstly that people would have to change at Platform 10 and have a long walk/bus to the main station at Heuston, then when it's pointed out that this would be totally unnecessary you then say that people wouldn't use the train because it's too slow.
Frankly I think you're engaging in a whole load of kneejerk reactions without actually stopping and thinking about this.
If (and it is an if) the project were only to cost €12m then I fail to see the harm in this. It will have zero impact on whether DART underground gets built or not in the long run as €12m is a fly in the ointment as compared with the DART underground costs.
This can only happen when the city centre resignalling project is completed. That would mean Kildare line commuter services running through to Grand Canal Dock and using the new turnback facility there.
At current line speeds journey time from Islandbridge Junction would be (with stops at Heuston Platform 10 and Drumcondra):
Connolly - 15 minutes
Tara Street - 18 minutes
Pearse - 20 minutes
Grand Canal Dock - 22 minutes
Presumably one would hope that part of this would involve increasing speed limits on the line (currently 30mph).
Currently to get that to those locations from Islandbridge Junction it would involve:
Islandbridge Jctn to Heuston - 3 minutes
Walk & wait time - 5 minutes
LUAS time to Connolly - 15 minutes
(Total to Connolly 23 minutes)
Tara Street would be about 25 minutes away (including a walk from Abbey stop), and Grand Canal Dock roughly 30 minutes with a walk from Spencer Dock.
It all depends upon where people want to go from Heuston. A direct bus can cover the city quays if people wish to travel there, while people going to the CBD, or who wish to make connections with DART, Enterprise, Sligo, Rosslare and Connolly commuter services can stay on the train.
As I said, provided costs are minimal, I don't see the issue with operating services to/from Grand Canal Dock.0 -
No it wouldn't - with the tunnel reopened you wouldn't need to go to Heuston at all. Using the tunnel they could run trains direct from Connolly or Pearse to anywhere on the mainline network without going to Heuston which means that for most people who can access the Dart, a trip to Cork, Galway or Westport would only involve one Dart and one mainline train with one transfer.
Even without the Dart, most people in Dublin can easily get a bus to the city centre from where you can walk to either Connolly or Pearse. Heuston for most people (unless you live near the N11 and can get the 145) would involve two buses or a bus and Luas so it is nowhere near as accessible as Connolly or Pearse.
Connolly still wouldn't have the capacity to run all intercity routes from it, and if it would then why both keeping Heuston open, you are only talking an hourly or half hourly service at most. It's just wouldn't work.You do keep moving goal posts here - saying firstly that people would have to change at Platform 10 and have a long walk/bus to the main station at Heuston, then when it's pointed out that this would be totally unnecessary you then say that people wouldn't use the train because it's too slow.
Frankly I think you're engaging in a whole load of kneejerk reactions without actually stopping and thinking about this.
If (and it is an if) the project were only to cost €12m then I fail to see the harm in this. It will have zero impact on whether DART underground gets built or not in the long run as €12m is a fly in the ointment as compared with the DART underground costs.
This can only happen when the city centre resignalling project is completed. That would mean Kildare line commuter services running through to Grand Canal Dock and using the new turnback facility there.
At current line speeds journey time from Islandbridge Junction would be (with stops at Heuston Platform 10 and Drumcondra):
Connolly - 15 minutes
Tara Street - 18 minutes
Pearse - 20 minutes
Grand Canal Dock - 22 minutes
Presumably one would hope that part of this would involve increasing speed limits on the line (currently 30mph).
Currently to get that to those locations from Islandbridge Junction it would involve:
Islandbridge Jctn to Heuston - 3 minutes
Walk & wait time - 5 minutes
LUAS time to Connolly - 15 minutes
(Total to Connolly 23 minutes)
Tara Street would be about 25 minutes away (including a walk from Abbey stop), and Grand Canal Dock roughly 30 minutes with a walk from Spencer Dock.
It all depends upon where people want to go from Heuston. A direct bus can cover the city quays if people wish to travel there, while people going to the CBD, or who wish to make connections with DART, Enterprise, Sligo, Rosslare and Connolly commuter services can stay on the train.
As I said, provided costs are minimal, I don't see the issue with operating services to/from Grand Canal Dock.
You are forgetting people want to get places fast and if people were prepared to stay on slower trains then why have IE being forced to reduce times to compete with the car.
One final thing is that IE signalling system goes into meltdown every few weeks and often it results in Maynooth services not being able to serve Drumcondra so access to the tunnel is often cut off. I can just picture peak times and the whole system at Connolly comes to a stop and what will happen. Heuston services are usually very good and Connolly services are a complete shambles day in day out, adding this to the mix and a signal fault will just cripple the network and passengers will be forced onto the Luas anyway.
Yes the 12 million isn't much but it would be better spent to improve what we have and wait until the money is their to build the interconnector.0 -
Connolly still wouldn't have the capacity to run all intercity routes from it, and if it would then why both keeping Heuston open, you are only talking an hourly or half hourly service at most. It's just wouldn't work.
You are forgetting people want to get places fast and if people were prepared to stay on slower trains then why have IE being forced to reduce times to compete with the car.
One final thing is that IE signalling system goes into meltdown every few weeks and often it results in Maynooth services not being able to serve Drumcondra so access to the tunnel is often cut off. I can just picture peak times and the whole system at Connolly comes to a stop and what will happen. Heuston services are usually very good and Connolly services are a complete shambles day in day out, adding this to the mix and a signal fault will just cripple the network and passengers will be forced onto the Luas anyway.
Yes the 12 million isn't much but it would be better spent to improve what we have and wait until the money is their to build the interconnector.
I think you are grossly exaggerating the instances of signal failure.
Remember that this proposal is POST-resignalling.
I'd hate to think that you make decisions such as this based on freak events such as a signalling failure.
The reality is that the majority of the time they do work.
Quite frankly you seem to be clutching at every potential straw, rather than coming up with real reasons why, for example, a Grand Canal Dock to Hazelhatch, Newbridge or indeed Portlaoise service could not work.
I'd imagine that anyone working in the Grand Canal Dock area would far prefer a direct train than bus/LUAS and another train.0 -
Unless you can back that up, that'll be viewed as you trolling
http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/172259-phoenix-park-tunnel-line.html#post4440625
More congestion = slower trains.Connolly is already at capacity - the whole point of Dart Underground is to take trains out of Connolly.
Putting more trains into Con via PPT would cause more congestion.
Use of PPT for regular services has been examined on a number of occasions in the last 40 years and it has been ruled not feasible each time.
http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/115653-phoenix-park-rail-tunnel.html#post2226561It's not closed, it's in full working order. Trains pass through it on a weekly basis. It is used to get trains from Inchicore works to Connolly and vice versa. They also run the odd GAA special through it with trains from the southwest going all the way to Connolly to make it easier for fans to get to Croke Park. The reason normal passenger services don't run through the Phoenix Park tunnel is because there is physically no room at Connolly to take more trains during peak hours. If they were to run a train from the Kildare line through the tunnel to Connolly during peak hours they would have to drop a train from either the Maynooth line or Northern line.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67238315&postcount=37What the interconnector delivers is two completely independent DART services (Maynooth/Greystones and Northern Line/Hazelhatch) and the elimination of the numerous conflicts north of Connolly and relieves pressure on the loop line bridge. None of that is delivered by using the Phoenix Park tunnel instead.
The problem with using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is that it funnels everything off the Kildare line onto the same tracks as trains from Maynooth at Glasnevin Junction and then everything has to cross northbound and southbound tracks to get into Connolly thereby using extra slots.
Arguably it could be used to route trains from Kildare to Docklands, but this would require a diamond crossover at Glasnevin Junction. This would however mean longer journeys to say the south city centre at Grafton Street than the existing bus transfer at Heuston.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51272978&postcount=4There are a number of practical matters which prevent its daily use for passengers, these come before any potential union issues which are minor in comparision, the biggest issue is you can't do Heuston Platform 10 to Connolly but you can do the reverse
http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=71966&postcount=2No connection between the two sadly.
Its all well and good saying Connolly has capacity but it doesn't really even after the upgrade.
And the line did carry daily scheduled passenger services until 1981 when the through boat train stopped running.
Currently the time allowed for a Luas transfer Heuston/Connolly as per the IR website is over an hour. This must be to allow for walking along the platforms and waiting for a luas as well as the 15-20 minutes travel time.
we are led to believe that trains are to enter Heuston then reverse back out to a point past the SCR before waiting for points to be changed then travel into the tunnel(as long as there is a driver available with the appropriate training and clearance to use the tunnel) and exit it heading onto Cabra east where there will be more waiting as the line into Connolly is just about at capacity. then the train will travel quite slowly(if current dart and commuter services are any indication of speeds) onwards into Connolly where more waiting will occur while signals/points are changed to put the train on the appropriate platform.
In my opinion this if implemented at all it will be slower getting to Connolly or Docklands station than the current Luas/bus arrangements which are about 20 minutes, and in many cases because of the delays waiting time with signalling and points trains will take longer than an extra hour.
This is only my opinion but it is backed up by current operations on the line into Connolly and the extra time required at Heuston. I would go so far as to say that if implemented many services scheduled to use the tunnel would terminate in Heuston due to points and signal faults!0 -
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http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/172259-phoenix-park-tunnel-line.html#post4440625
More congestion = slower trains.
http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/115653-phoenix-park-rail-tunnel.html#post2226561
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67238315&postcount=37
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51272978&postcount=4
http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=71966&postcount=2
Currently the time allowed for a Luas transfer Heuston/Connolly as per the IR website is over an hour. This must be to allow for walking along the platforms and waiting for a luas as well as the 15-20 minutes travel time.
we are led to believe that trains are to enter Heuston then reverse back out to a point past the SCR before waiting for points to be changed then travel into the tunnel(as long as there is a driver available with the appropriate training and clearance to use the tunnel) and exit it heading onto Cabra east where there will be more waiting as the line into Connolly is just about at capacity. then the train will travel quite slowly(if current dart and commuter services are any indication of speeds) onwards into Connolly where more waiting will occur while signals/points are changed to put the train on the appropriate platform.
In my opinion this if implemented at all it will be slower getting to Connolly or Docklands station than the current Luas/bus arrangements which are about 20 minutes, and in many cases because of the delays waiting time with signalling and points trains will take longer than an extra hour.
This is only my opinion but it is backed up by current operations on the line into Connolly and the extra time required at Heuston. I would go so far as to say that if implemented many services scheduled to use the tunnel would terminate in Heuston due to points and signal faults!
Sorry, but this post is just pure rubbish.
Have you read ANY of my posts above?
The whole point of this is that it is after the City Centre Resignalling project is completed and when capacity at Connolly will have been substantially increased. It would only be commuter services.
The proposal would not mean trains going into Heuston and then performing a double reversal - commuter services would serve Platform 10 and they would have to use a new crossover north of the platform, thereby bypassing Heuston Intercity station and continue to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock.
Are you seriously suggesting that if a proposal such as this were to be implemented (and we are talking in at least 2 years time here) that drivers would not have been route trained beforehand? Frankly that is one of the most pathetic arguments I've heard in a long time.
As for the journey time - the journey planner is conservative - it allows 1 hour so as to allow for potential delays en route - the reality is that it does not take 1 hour to make that trip.
Nor will this proposal add an hour to people's journey - it will cut their journey times in many cases.
For goodness sakes, at least use some common sense rather than coming up with ludicrously daft objections that have no basis in fact but are just your opinion or hearsay.0
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