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Hitler and Mussolini were good Christians - Fianna Fail senator

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Comments

  • #2
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    He was saying they weren't atheists. Which is true of Mussolini, jury's out on Hitler.


  • #3
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,809 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I think you are taking things out of context somewhat. This post sums up the situation well.

    He meant that at the time that the Church viewed them as 'Good Christians'. Still a silly remark to make from a PR perspective.
    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    He was saying they weren't atheists. Which is true of Mussolini, jury's out on Hitler.

    Indeed. History has shown that Mussolini had very close links with the Vatican. Don't think that was the case with Hitler though, although he was still a self proclaimed Christian.


  • #4
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Ironically this waffle was in a debate on whether or not to abolish the seanad

    We are paying for politicians like this to stand up and talk nonsense.


  • #5
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I think you are taking things out of context somewhat. This post sums up the situation well.

    He meant that at the time that the Church viewed them as 'Good Christians'. Still a silly remark to make from a PR perspective.



    Indeed. History has shown that Mussolini had very close links with the Vatican. Don't think that was the case with Hitler though, although he was still a self proclaimed Christian.

    Thanks for the link

    I saw this headline on thejournal.ie this morning, I didn't bother to read it because I knew it would be twisted.

    Whatever journalist conjured this up should be sued for defamation imho


  • #6
    raymon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,771 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I think you are taking things out of context somewhat. This post sums up the situation well.

    He meant that at the time that the Church viewed them as 'Good Christians'. Still a silly remark to make from a PR perspective.



    Indeed. History has shown that Mussolini had very close links with the Vatican. Don't think that was the case with Hitler though, although he was still a self proclaimed Christian.

    I think you are being disingenuous here in saying that it was taken out of context.

    Thus guy has had outbursts about Jews before.

    " The massive Jewish vote in the United States of America influences government policy and Obama is now a tool of the Israeli State. It is not a question of “Yes, we can”, but “No, we will not”.

    Or how about he called into question Shatter's objectivity on the Palestinian issue because he is Jewish

    Come on just because he is FF doesn't mean you have to defend him


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  • #7
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    raymon wrote: »
    I think you are being disingenuous here in saying that it was taken out of context.

    Thus guy has had outbursts about Jews before.

    " The massive Jewish vote in the United States of America influences government policy and Obama is now a tool of the Israeli State. It is not a question of “Yes, we can”, but “No, we will not”.

    Or how about he called into question Shatter's objectivity on the Palestinian issue because he is Jewish

    Come on just because he is FF doesn't mean you have to defend him

    I am a secularist and anti-FF and nothing is incorrect there. It's legit to question the US and the Jewish lobby on Israel. And Shatter is very pro Israel.


  • #8
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Hitler was a roman catholic who met Pope Pius XII in numerous occasions. That fact cannot be disputed. The Catholic Church's role in the holocaust is shameful. They stayed silent even as Jews were rounded up in Rome and put on a train to Auswitz. The theological argument that the Jews killed Jesus and had to be punished was used as theological basis for the holocaust by the Nazis. Have you visited the catholic churches where extermination camp guards went to mass every Sunday. After the war it was the Pope and the Vatican that helped high ranking nazis escape to south america.

    The argument that the catholic church and the pope stayed silent on the holocaust to "help" Jews is deeply insulting and just plain wrong


  • #9
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    regress wrote: »
    Hitler was a roman catholic who met Pope Pius XIII on numerous occasions. That fact cannot be disputed. The Catholic Church's role in the holocaust is shameful. They stayed silent even as Jews were rounded up in Rome and put on a train to Auswitz. The theological argument that the Jews killed Jesus and had to be punished was used as theological basis for the holocaust by the Nazis. Have you visited the catholic churches where extermination camp guards went to mass every Sunday. After the war it was the Pope and the Vatican that helped high ranking nazis escape to south america.

    The argument that the catholic church and the pope stayed silent on the holocaust to "help" Jews is deeply insulting and just plain wrong

    None of this is true either. The nazis were generally Protestants, I don't think the Pope met Hitler, Catholic papers were shut down, catholic priests were massacred in Poland (about 90% of them) there was a Nazi Lutheran church however. The Pope did criticize Naziism and rescued Jews in Rome. He was even honored by Israel after the war.


  • #10
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    None of this is true either. The nazis were generally Protestants, I don't think the Pope met Hitler, Catholic papers were shut down, catholic priests were massacred in Poland (about 90% of them) there was a Nazi Lutheran church however. The Pope did criticize Naziism and rescued Jews in Rome. He was even honored by Israel after the war.

    All of the above is true. Face the facts. In relation to the points you make.
    Many German soldiers were Protestants but most of the top Nazis including Hitlet and the majority of the Gestapo were roman catholic.
    The Catholic press that was shut down was too independent. There is even an argument that the Vatican asked the Nazis to shut it down to stifle criticism.

    Individual catholic priests who opposed the Nazis and who did not have the support of the Vatican were killed. The silence of the Pope while this was happening is damning

    Pope Pius XIi had numerous meetings with Hitler in Germany in the 30's This is historical fact.

    The Jews of Rome were rounded up in 1943. They were kept there for a week in case the Pope was forced to comment. He refused to do so and they were all put on a train to Autswitz.

    The Pope or the catholic church never explicitly criticized the extermination of the Jews. There are a few very vague lines in encyclicals that have been interpreted as subtle criticism but I doubt anyone thought they didn't approve of the extermination of Jews at the time.


  • #11
    jhegarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    regress wrote: »
    Hitler was a roman catholic who met Pope Pius XII in numerous occasions. That fact cannot be disputed.

    He was the papal nuncio to Germany before the war, so he would have meet Hitler then as part of his job.

    But he wasn't pope at the time so your statement isn't correct.


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  • #12
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    jhegarty wrote: »
    He was the papal nuncio to Germany before the war, so he would have meet Hitler then as part of his job.

    But he wasn't pope at the time so your statement isn't correct.

    No. He wasn't Pope at the time. Eugueino Pacelli only became Pope in 1938.
    But it is still the same man. And his time in Gemany also discredits the 'naive innocent' argument.


  • #13
    jhegarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    regress wrote: »
    No. He wasn't Pope at the time. Eugueino Pacelli only became Pope in 1938.
    But it is still the same man. And his time in Gemany also discredits the 'naive innocent' argument.

    1. It was 1939
    2. Pope is a job/title , not a person. The Pope did not meet Hitler.


  • #14
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    jhegarty wrote: »
    1. It was 1939
    2. Pope is a job/title , not a person. The Pope did not meet Hitler.

    Ok. You're being a bit pedantic but are probably right. Still doesn't detract from points about Hillers close relationship with the Vatican.


  • #15
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    regress wrote: »
    All of the above is true. Face the facts. In relation to the points you make.
    Many German soldiers were Protestants but most of the top Nazis including Hitlet and the majority of the Gestapo were roman catholic.
    The Catholic press that was shut down was too independent. There is even an argument that the Vatican asked the Nazis to shut it down to stifle criticism.

    Individual catholic priests who opposed the Nazis and who did not have the support of the Vatican were killed. The silence of the Pope while this was happening is damning

    Pope Pius XIi had numerous meetings with Hitler in Germany in the 30's This is historical fact.

    The Jews of Rome were rounded up in 1943. They were kept there for a week in case the Pope was forced to comment. He refused to do so and they were all put on a train to Autswitz.

    The Pope or the catholic church never explicitly criticized the extermination of the Jews. There are a few very vague lines in encyclicals that have been interpreted as subtle criticism but I doubt anyone thought they didn't approve of the extermination of Jews at the time.

    The criticism is hardly subtle.



    h the Vatican sought to protect the Church in Germany, and Hitler sought the destruction of 'political Catholicism'. A pre-war critic of Nazism, Pius lobbied world leaders to avoid war and, as Pope at the outbreak of war, issued Summi Pontificatus, expressing dismay at the invasion of Poland, reiterating church teaching against racism and calling for love, compassion and charity to prevail over war.

    and

    The Pope employed the new technology of radio and a series of Christmas messages to preach against selfish nationalism and the evils of modern warfare and offer sympathy to the victims of the war.[135]Pius XII's 1942 Christmas address via Vatican Radio voiced concern at human rights abuses and the murder of innocents based on race. The majority of the speech spoke generally about human rights and civil society; at the very end of the speech, Pius XII mentioned "the hundreds of thousands of persons who, without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of their nationality or race, have been consigned to death or to a slow decline".[178] According to Rittner, the speech remains a "lightning rod" in debates about Pius XII.[179] The Nazis themselves responded to the speech by stating that it was "one long attack on everything we stand for....He is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews....He is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals." The New York Times wrote that "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas....In calling for a 'real new order' based on 'liberty, justice and love,'...the pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism.

    Hardly subtle. The church was walking a dangerous ground, the Nazis were more anti Catholic than anti any other Christian religion and the church was worried for its members. In fact Germany had nazified the Lutheran Church, and liquidated 90% of Polish Catholic priests including the hierarchy. Hardly the work of pro-Catholics.

    If anything Hitlerism was a Protestant heresy. Most nationalisms are.


  • #16
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    I should also point out that Catholic conservatives voted for the Centre party - which was the one Conservative party to not see it's vote decline as Nazzism increased in strength, and the Nazis power base was Protestant Prussia.

    This kinda Catholic = Nazi thing used to be believed by the lunatic far right of the unionists in NI. It's a remarkable fact it has become mainstream.


  • #17
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    That comes from Wikipedia and is revisionism of the highest order "According to Richner" "a source said" and interpretaion of what Pope said by allies. rather than what he actually said. Why doesn'wikipedia mention that the nazi media reported message in full and said that it referred to German soldiers and civilians. That the nazis and Hitler intrepreted it as message of support. The vague words
    in the Christmas broadcast should be read as they are, once again the Pope never once explicitly criticized the extermination of the jews or Hitler.


  • #18
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    I should also point out that Catholic conservatives voted for the Centre party - which was the one Conservative party to not see it's vote decline as Nazzism increased in strength, and the Nazis power base was Protestant Prussia.

    This kinda Catholic = Nazi thing used to be believed by the lunatic far right of the unionists in NI. It's a remarkable fact it has become mainstream.


    You are confusing political Catholicism which the Vatican didn't like and which Hitler crushed with religious cathilism. My points are in relation to Tge Pope and the theological support that the nazis got from the catholic church. Political Catholicism in the shape of catholic political parties and newspapers and independent minded individual priests is different.


  • #19
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    That the Church attempted to deal with the raise of rabid nationalism by making a compromise in some respect in order to safe guard the Catholic community in general, according to various sources not least Paul Johnson and Michael Burleigh. To say they gave theological support to them is unfounded, uncreditable and utterly unhistoric.


  • #20
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Manach wrote: »
    in order to safe guard the Catholic community in general, according to various sources To say they gave theological support to them is unfounded, uncreditable and utterly unhistoric.

    are you serious? The Nazis were the catholic community.Many of them we're deeply religious and looked to the church in atoms for guidance. Like the extermination camP guards that went to mass every Sunday. The extermination of the Jews had a deep theological basis which was never disputed or questioned by the Vatican bread the transcripts of "alleged" war criminals after the war and many if ten justify their actions on catholic religious grounds.

    Jesus says on the cross that the hews will be punished for killing him


  • #21
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The criticism is hardly subtle.



    h the Vatican sought to protect the Church in Germany, and Hitler sought the destruction of 'political Catholicism'. A pre-war critic of Nazism, Pius lobbied world leaders to avoid war and, as Pope at the outbreak of war, issued



    Pontificatus, expressing dismay at the invasion of Poland, reiterating church teaching against racism and calling for love, compassion and charity to prevail over war.

    and

    The Pope employed the new technology of radio and a series of Christmas messages to preach against selfish nationalism and the evils of modern warfare and
    offer sympathy to the victims of the war.[135]Pius XII's 1942 Christmas address via Vatican Radio voiced concern at human rights abuses and the murder of innocents based on race. The majority of the speech spoke generally about human rights and civil society; at the very end of the speech, Pius XII mentioned "the hundreds of thousands of persons who, without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of their nationality or race, have been consigned to death or to a slow decline".[178] According to Rittner, the speech remains a "lightning rod" in debates about Pius XII.
    [179] The Nazis themselves responded to the speech by stating that it was "one long attack on everything we stand for....He is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews....He is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals." The New York Times wrote that "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas....In calling for a 'real new order' based on 'liberty, justice and love,'...the pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism.

    Hardly subtle. The church was walking a dangerous ground, the Nazis were more anti Catholic than anti any other Christian religion and the church was worried for its members. In fact Germany had nazified the Lutheran Church, and liquidated 90% of Polish Catholic priests including the hierarchy. Hardly the work of pro-Catholics.

    If anything Hitlerism was a Protestant heresy. Most nationalisms are.


    An objject lesson on the. dangers of googling. At the time the Vatican was under enormous oressue to say that it disapproved of the systematic extermination of European Jews. It had for years to give any direction to German Catholics who were carrying out the genocide. Thousands of priests and catholic nazis who had moral doubts about what they were participating in had asked their church for guidance. This vague sentence at the end of a long speech is being potrayed now as a criticism of the holocaust. It was nothing of the sort.

    "At the very end of the speech, Pius XII mentioned "the hundreds of thousands of persons who, without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of their nationality or race, have been consigned to death or to a slow decline


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  • #22
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    I am not disputing that individual Catholics and priests disagreed with their church and opposed the genocide and helped Jews. However they clearly were acting on their own and got no support from the Vatican and the Pope. They stayed silent when polish priests were slaughtered. The holocaust would not have been possible without the support of the Vatican.


  • #23
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    And again can you provide foundational primary evidence or any credible historian's account of that era that back up your assertations? That Some war criminals (from the defeated side) returning to their original faith prior to sentencing is hardly conclusive of such an underpinning of Nazi ideology by Catholicism


  • #24
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭SeanW


    regress wrote: »
    Hitler was a roman catholic who met Pope Pius XII in numerous occasions. That fact cannot be disputed. The Catholic Church's role in the holocaust is shameful. They stayed silent even as Jews were rounded up in Rome and put on a train to Auswitz. The theological argument that the Jews killed Jesus and had to be punished was used as theological basis for the holocaust by the Nazis. Have you visited the catholic churches where extermination camp guards went to mass every Sunday. After the war it was the Pope and the Vatican that helped high ranking nazis escape to south america.

    The argument that the catholic church and the pope stayed silent on the holocaust to "help" Jews is deeply insulting and just plain wrong
    Correct. The Catholic Chruch had spent the previous millenium demonising Jews as hated Christ-killers, creating an environment of deep seated animosity towards Jews that took almost nothing to turn into violence, porgroms the like, as it had done routinely in the centuries prior to WWII. That's why the Nazi uprising was very much a Christian affair, and most of the Third Reich top brass were Catholics.

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  • #25
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,486 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    None of this is true either. The nazis were generally Protestants, I don't think the Pope met Hitler, Catholic papers were shut down, catholic priests were massacred in Poland (about 90% of them) there was a Nazi Lutheran church however. The Pope did criticize Naziism and rescued Jews in Rome. He was even honored by Israel after the war.

    I assume you are talking about 'The Myth of Hitler's Pope' ?

    I have actually read it, and while it poses a strong case for Pope Pius XII it read more as an attack on his critics.

    Claiming that those who criticised Pius XII are lapsed Catholics who deliberately seek to discredit him, trying to shift the attention to the virulent anti-Semitism that he claims exists in the Arab world,...


  • #26
    Riddle101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,641 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Both Hitler and Mussolini used the church for their own ambitions. The church had a lot of political influence and they knew that getting their support would be vital. Otto Von Bismarck also faced the same problems in the late 19th century when was unifying Germany. He wanted to get rid of the catholic church from politics but saw that they were both conservative and had a lot of influence so he gained their support instead. I don't think Hitler was religious though, although he seemed to have an interest in religions from the far east. He may have supported the church for political reasons but that was it.


  • #27
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Hitler had no time for the catholic political party or the catholic newspapers in Germany. He also was ruthless towards anyone that stood up to and spoke against the nazis including individual catholic priests.

    It is also clear that he was as we say now an a la carte catholic. It is not clear whether he went to mass every Sunday or gave up chocolate for lent.


    However he also realized that many Catholics who were involved in the extermination of millions of Jews might have had moral doubts about what they were doing. For this reason the tacit support of the Vatican and the Pope for the Holocaust was very important. It was of great comfort to some catholics that were killing Jews that their church approved of what they were doing and that they were acting as good Christians and Catholics and acting as Jesus Christ wanted them too. If the Pope or the Vatican had told them that the mass murder of Jews was wrong it would have been disastrous for the holocaust project.

    The popes Christmas message reinforced that what they were doing was regrettable but necessary and theologically sound.


  • #28
    regress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Roman Catholics who expressed doubts about the mass slaughter of Jews were told by their priests to look to the bible which is the word of god. They were told that they were doing gods work. The holocaust would not have been possible without the roman Catholics that carried it out.

    20). When the governor asked what he should do with Jesus, the great crowd of Jewish people cried out, “Crucify Him!” “They kept shouting all the more, saying, ‘Crucify Him!’” (vv. 22, 23). When Pilate said that he would be “innocent of this Man’s blood,” the Jewish people responded, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!”


  • #29
    jhegarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    regress wrote: »
    Roman Catholics who expressed doubts about the mass slaughter of Jews were told by their priests to look to the bible which is the word of god. They were told that they were doing gods work. The holocaust would not have been possible without the roman Catholics that carried it out.

    Proof please.


  • #30
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    There appears to be a fair bit of historical cluelessness here.

    First of all we have Mussolini. Contrary to what's been discussed here he was actually an almost certainly an atheist and certainly was strongly anti-clerical.

    That he had a close political or diplomatic relationship with the Church is hardly surprising; he was after all, leader of Italy; the country that essentially hosted the Papal presence and that had annexed over 99% of the Papal States to come into being. Indeed, the Latrine accords were specifically a political agreement to resolve the political impasse that followed the annexation of Rome, after which Pope Pius IX and subsequent popes considered themselves 'prisoners' in the Vatican and automatically excommunicated the kings and senior politicians of the new Italian state.

    However, political engagement, agreement or even alliance does not imply that Mussolini believed in God, much less that he was a 'good Christian'.

    Hitler's views were more complex, possibly because they were more ambivalent. Nonetheless, it's clear that he was no great fan of Christianity, and saw it as a 'Jewish import' that supplanted the native Arian religions. He also particularly disliked Catholics, as they were more likely to object to Nazi policy and because he mistrusted their divided allegiance between the Nazi state and Rome.

    Even beyond this, he disliked much of Christian philosophy; 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' was hardly something compatible with National Socialism's more Darwinistic views and according to Speer he would often complain:

    "You see it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

    The Catholic Church (seeing as that's the only Church people on Boards seem to recognise, despite the fact that 54% of Germans were protestant, even after the annexation of Austria) had a relationship of convenience with both Hitler and Mussolini.

    With the latter, it needed one to resolve the question of the Church's temporal status (as previously discussed), however it also supported both of them as bulwarks against the spread of communism. This is hardly unusual as both Hitler and Mussolini received lots of support (financial especially) from various groups for this various reason (Hitler famously did so from German-Jewish industrialists). As time went on and their regimes imposed more extreme changes and eventually war, they lost this support - including from the Church.

    So all this demonstrates is that the Church was capable of Realpolitik as much as anyone else, not any ideological commonality.
    regress wrote: »
    Roman Catholics who expressed doubts about the mass slaughter of Jews were told by their priests to look to the bible which is the word of god. They were told that they were doing gods work. The holocaust would not have been possible without the roman Catholics that carried it out.
    Good grief. Where did you read that rubbish?

    Catholicism was viewed with suspicion by Hitler (who was himself raised a Roman Catholic). It was viewed so because it was ultimately directed by a foreign power (the Pope) and often put the interests of Catholicism over that of the German people (e.g. Catholic Poles) and were significantly more likely to oppose many of the Nazi racial policies (e.g. Eugenics) than their protestant compatriots. So the reality is the opposite to that which you've claimed.

    Now I can understand someone being anti-clerical; I am myself to a great degree. However, there's no excuse for inventing history as a means to to promote one's anti-clerical views.


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  • #31
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,914 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Adolf Hitler wrote:
    The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity.
    He might have been right about that :pac:

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