Hitler and Mussolini were good Christians - Fianna Fail senator

hinault

regress wrote: »

Hitler was a roman catholic who met Pope Pius XII in numerous occasions. That fact cannot be disputed.

I'm disputing it.

When and where did Hitler meet Pope Pius XII?

edit. Forget it, I see you have retracted the assertion that is contained in the posted quote above.

nuac

Interesting thread.

I agree with Frank Midere

The Nazis and what drove them is a matter for debate, but I don't think Catholicism was one of the drivers.

[Jackass]

Who needs Hitler and the Nazis when you have the pope ordered annihilation of the Jews and the Muslims throughout centuries of crusades.

The original ethnic cleansing and the original religious war - before boundaries were clearly defined, war was fought by the order of religion. (Pope Innocent III, Pope Celestine III, Pope Innocent VIII all ordered mass slaughters across Europe)

Manach

The Crusades in the most part were defence wars fought against a fanatic foe who would have conquered Europe. Pogroms against the Jews, whilst regretable where in large part driven by local rulers eager to acquire wealth and deflect blame from parochial issues and not centrally directed. At least that what I've gain from academic sources and a dozen or more texts on the era.

regress

hinault wrote: »

I'm disputing it.

When and where did Hitler meet Pope Pius XII?

edit. Forget it, I see you have retracted the assertion that is contained in the posted quote above.

Ok. He never met him after he became Pope.but there are those that would argue that they never met before that ad they refused to be photographed together. However Piux XII while Nuncia negotiated the Reich Concordat which destroyed the Catholic Political Party and facilitated the Nazis maintaining power. As I said in an earlier post the Vatican saw the Catholic Centre Party as a threat to it's power and had a vested interest in helping the Nazis supress it. It is incincievale to me that Hitler and the future Pius XII did not meet while arranging this. His housekeeper said that they had regular meetings, although she is hardly a relible source.

There are pictures of catholic cardinals with Nazis giving the Nazi salute as millions of Jews were being killed by Catholics but Pacelli never met with Hitlet after he became Pipe. The Allies were also composed of millions of Catholics so it would have been inappropriate.

Jelle1880

Manach wrote: »

The Crusades in the most part were defence wars fought against a fanatic foe who would have conquered Europe. Pogroms against the Jews, whilst regretable where in large part driven by local rulers eager to acquire wealth and deflect blame from parochial issues and not centrally directed. At least that what I've gain from academic sources and a dozen or more texts on the era.

To be fair, they only became really fanatic (as in Jihad fanatic) after the Crusaders decided to murder everyone in Jerusalem.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Ok. He never met him after he became Pope.but there are those that would argue that they never met before that ad they refused to be photographed together. However Piux XII while Nuncia negotiated the Reich Concordat which destroyed the Catholic Political Party and facilitated the Nazis maintaining power. As I said in an earlier post the Vatican saw the Catholic Centre Party as a threat to it's power and had a vested interest in helping the Nazis supress it. It is incincievale to me that Hitler and the future Pius XII did not meet while arranging this. His housekeeper said that they had regular meetings, although she is hardly a relible source.

There are pictures of catholic cardinals with Nazis giving the Nazi salute as millions of Jews were being killed by Catholics but Pacelli never met with Hitlet after he became Pipe. The Allies were also composed of millions of Catholics so it would have been inappropriate.

Before he became Pope, Pius XII was vehemently opposed to Nazism.

Pope Pius XI actually signed the Concordat with the Germany in 1933. Almost immediately Germany reneged on what was signed.

Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich
[with Supplementary Protocol and Secret Supplement]
July 20, 1933
[Ratified 10 September 1933]

[Concordat]

His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich, moved by a common desire to consolidate and promote the friendly relations existing between the Holy See and the German Reich, wish to permanently regulate the relations between the Catholic Church and the state for the whole territory of the German Reich in a way acceptable to both parties. They have decided to conclude a solemn agreement, which will supplement the Concordats already concluded with individual German states (Länder) [5], and will ensure for the remaining states (Länder) fundamentally uniform treatment of their respective problems.

For this purpose His Holiness Pope Pius XI has appointed as his Plenipotentiary His Eminence the Most Reverend Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, his Secretary of State and the President of the German Reich has appointed as Plenipotentiary the Vice-Chancellor of the German Reich, Herr Franz von Papen, who, having exchanged their respective mandates and found them to be in good and proper form, have agreed to the following Articles:

Article 1

The German Reich guarantees freedom of profession and public practice of the Catholic religion.

It acknowledges the right of the Catholic Church, within the framework of the laws valid for all, to manage and regulate its own affairs independently, and, within the framework of its own competence, to issue binding laws and ordinances for its members.

Article 2

The concordats concluded with Bavaria (1924), Prussia (1929) and Baden (1932) remain in force, and the rights and privileges of the Catholic Church recognized in these are preserved unchanged within the territories of the states concerned. For the remaining states (Länder), the agreements reached in the present concordat come into force in their entirety. These last are also binding for the three states (Länder) named above, in so far as they affect matters not regulated by the states’ (Länder) concordats or in so far as they supplement the earlier settlements.

In the future concordats with the states (Länder) will be concluded only with the agreement of the government of the Reich.

Article 3

In order to foster good relations between the Holy See and the German Reich, an apostolic nuncio will reside in the capital of the German Reich and an ambassador of the German Reich at the Holy See.

Article 4

The Holy See enjoys full freedom in its relations and correspondence with the bishops, clergy and other members of the Catholic Church in Germany. The same applies to the bishops and other diocesan officials in their dealings with the faithful in all matters belonging to their pastoral office.

Instructions, ordinances, pastoral letters, official diocesan gazettes, and other decrees concerning the spiritual direction of the faithful issued by the Church authorities within the framework of their competence (Art. 1, Sect. 2) may be published without hindrance and brought to the notice of the faithful in the customary form.

Article 5

In the exercise of their clerical activities the clergy enjoy the protection of the state in the same way as state officials. The state will proceed, in accordance with the general provisions of civil law, against any insult to their person or to their clerical capacity, as well as against any interference with the duties of their office and, if necessary, will provide official protection.

Article 6

The clergy and members of religious orders are freed from any obligation to take public office and such obligations as, according to the dictates of Canon Law, are incompatible with the status of a member of the clergy or religious order respectively. This applies particularly to the office of a lay judge, juror, member of a tax committee or of a fiscal tribunal.

Article 7

For the acceptance of employment or appointment as state official, or to any public corporation dependent on the state, clergymen require, the nihil obstat [6] of their diocesan ordinary, as well as of the ordinary of the place where the public corporation is situated. The nihil obstat may be withdrawn at any time for important reasons of ecclesiastical interests.

Article 8

The official income of the clergy is immune from distraint [7] to the same extent as is the official salary of the Reich and state officials.

Article 9

The clergy cannot be required by judicial and other authorities to give information about matters which have been entrusted to them in the course of administering pastoral care, and which therefore fall under the obligation of pastoral secrecy.

Article 10

The wearing of clerical dress or of a religious habit by lay people, or by members of the clergy or religious orders by whom this use is forbidden by a definitive and legally valid directive of the competent ecclesiastical authority and officially communicated to the state authority, is liable to the same penalty by the state as the misuse of the military uniform.

Article 11

The present organisation and boundaries of dioceses of the Catholic Church in the German Reich remain in force. Any creation or rearrangement of a bishopric or ecclesiastical province, or other changes in the boundaries of dioceses that seem advisable in the future, so far as they involve changes within the boundaries of a German state (Land), remain subject to the agreement of the state (Land) governments concerned. Rearrangements and alterations which extend beyond the boundaries of a German state require the agreement of the Reich Government, which shall be left to secure the consent of the appropriate state (Land) government. The same applies to creations or rearrangements of Church provinces involving several German states (Länder). The foregoing conditions do not apply to changes in ecclesiastical boundaries made merely in the interests of local pastoral care.

In the case of any (territorial) re-organisation within the German Reich, the Reich Government will communicate with the Holy See with a view to rearrangement of the organisation and boundaries of dioceses.

Article 12

Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 11, ecclesiastical offices may be freely created and changed, unless state funds are drawn upon. The involvement of the state in the creation and alteration of parishes shall be carried out according to standard procedures that are agreed to by the diocesan bishops, and for which the Reich Government will endeavour to secure the most uniform treatment possible from the state (Länder) governments.

Article 13

Catholic parishes, parish and diocesan societies, episcopal sees, bishoprics and chapters, religious orders and congregations, as well as institutions, foundations and property which are under the administration of Church agencies, shall retain or acquire respectively, legal competence in the civil domain according to the general provisions of civil law. They shall remain corporations under public law to the extent that they have been so far; the others may be granted similar rights within the framework of the laws valid for all.

Article 14

As a matter of principle the Church retains the right to appoint freely to all Church offices and benefices without the involvement of the state or of civil groups, in so far as other provisions have not been made in previous concordats mentioned in Article 2.

Concerning the appointment of bishops’ sees, the regulation made for appointment of the two suffragan [8] bishoprics of Rottenburg and Mainz, as well as for the bishopric of Meissen, is to be duly applied to the metropolitan see of the Upper Rhine Ecclesiastical Province of Freiburg. The same holds for the two first named suffragan bishops with regard to appointments to the cathedral chapter, and for the administration of the right of patronage [9].

Furthermore, there is agreement on the following points:

1. Catholic clerics who hold an ecclesiastical office in Germany or who exercise pastoral or educational functions must:

(a) be German citizens,
(b) have earned a secondary-school graduation certificate which permits study at an institution of higher learning,
(c) have studied philosophy and theology for at least three years at a German state university, a German ecclesiastical college, or a papal college in Rome.

2. The bull nominating archbishops, bishops, coadjutors cum jure successionis [10] or a praelatus nullius [11] will not be issued until the name of the appointee has been submitted to the Reich governor in the relevant state (Land), and until it has been ascertained that there are no objections of a general political nature. In the case of an agreement between Church and state, Paragraph 1, sections (a) (b) and (c) may be disregarded or set aside.

No right of the State to assert a veto is to be based on this Article.

Article 15

Religious orders and congregations are not subject to any special restrictions on the part of the state in relation to their foundation, establishment, number and – subject to Paragraph 2 of this Article – the selection of their members, their pastoral activities in care, education, care of the sick and charitable work, the management of their own affairs and the administration of their property. Superiors of religious orders whose headquarters are within Germany must be German citizens. Superiors of provincials and orders whose headquarters lie outside the territory of the German Reich, have the right to visit those of their establishments that lie within Germany.

The Holy See will take pains to ensure that for conventual establishments within the German Reich the provincial organization is set up so that, as far as possible, German establishments do not fall under the jurisdiction of foreign provincial superiors. Exceptions can be permitted with the agreement of the Reich Government, especially in cases where the small number of houses makes a German province impracticable, or where special grounds exist for the retention of an historic and firmly established provincial organisation.

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavour to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."

Article 17

The property rights and other rights to assets of corporations under public law, of the institutions, foundations and associations of the Catholic Church are guaranteed according to requirements of the general law of the land.

No building dedicated to religious services may be destroyed for any reason whatsoever without the previous consent of the proper Church authorities.

Article 18

In the case of the abrogation of state obligations to the Church, whether based on law, agreement or special charter, before working out the principles according to which the abrogation is to be carried out, in a timely manner an amicable agreement is to be effected between the Holy See and the Reich.

Legitimate traditional rights are to be considered as titles in law. An abrogation must bestow upon those entitled to abrogation proper compensation for the loss of the customary state benefits.

Article 19

Catholic theological faculties in state universities are to be maintained. Their relation to Church authorities will be governed by the relevant concordats and by their supplementary protocols with stated regulations, having due regard for the relevant Church decrees. [12] The Reich Government will endeavour to secure for all of these Catholic faculties in Germany uniformity of treatment.

Article 20

Where other agreements do not exist, the Church has the right to establish theological and philosophical colleges for the training of its clergy, which are to be wholly dependent on the Church authorities if no state subsidies are sought.

The establishment, management and administration of theological seminaries and hostels for seminarians is, within the framework of the laws valid for all, the exclusive prerogative of the Church authorities.

Article 21

Catholic religious education in elementary, vocational, secondary schools and institutions of higher learning is a regular school subject, and is to be taught in accordance with the principles of the Catholic Church. In religious education, special emphasis will be given to inculcating a patriotic, civic and social sense of duty in the spirit of the Christian faith and the moral code, just as happens in all other subjects. The curriculum and the selection of textbooks for religious education will be arranged in agreement with the Church authorities. The opportunity will be given to the Church authorities to check, with the agreement of the school authorities, whether the pupils receive religious education in accordance with the teachings and specifications of the Church.

Article 22

In the appointment of Catholic religious instructors, agreement is to be reached between the bishop and the state (Land) government. Teachers who, because of their doctrine or moral behaviour, are declared unfit to further impart religious education, are not permitted to be employed as religion teachers so long as this obstacle remains.

Article 23

The retention of Catholic denomination schools and the establishment of new ones is guaranteed. In all parishes where parents or guardians request it, Catholic elementary schools will be established, wherever the number of pupils, with due regard for the local conditions of school organization, appears to be sufficient for a school administered in accordance with the standards prescribed by the state.

Article 24

In all Catholic elementary schools only such teachers are to be employed as are members of the Catholic Church, and who guarantee to fulfil the special requirements of a Catholic school.

Within the framework of the general professional training of teachers, facilities will be created which will provide for the training of Catholic teachers, in accordance with the special requirements of Catholic denominational schools.

Article 25

Religious orders and congregations are entitled to establish and conduct private schools, within the framework of the general laws and ordinances. These private schools award the same qualifications as state schools, insofar as they adhere to the regulations governing curriculum prescribed for the latter.

Members of religious orders or congregations seeking admission to teacher training and employment in elementary, secondary or post-secondary schools are to meet the general requirements applicable to all

Article 26

Until a later comprehensive regulation of the marriage laws, it is understood that, apart from cases of critical illness of an engaged person which would not permit delay, and in cases of great moral emergency, whose presence must be confirmed by the proper episcopal authority, the Church marriage blessing should precede the civil ceremony. In such cases the priest is obliged to immediately notify the Registrar's office.

Article 27

For the German army pastoral care outside the realm of ordinary jurisdiction is conceded for its Catholic officers, officials and men, as well as for their families.

The administration of such pastoral care for the army is the duty of the army bishop. His Church appointment is to be made by the Holy See after contact has been made with the Reich Government in order, with its agreement, to select a suitable person.

The Church appointment of military chaplains and other military clergy will be made by the army bishop after prior consultation with the appropriate authorities of the Reich. He may appoint only such chaplains as receive permission from their diocesan bishop to undertake military pastoral work, together with a certificate of suitability. Military chaplains have the rights of parish priests with regard to the troops and other army personnel assigned to them.

Detailed regulations for the organisation of pastoral work by chaplains will be supplied by an Apostolic Brief. Regulations for the legal aspects in terms of [their status as state] officials will be drawn up by the Reich Government.

Article 28

In hospitals, prisons, and other public institutions the Church is permitted to make pastoral visits and conduct services of worship, subject to the general rules of the institutions concerned. If regular pastoral care is provided for such institutions, and if pastors must be appointed as state or other public officials, such appointments will be made with the agreement of Church authorities.

Article 29

Catholic members of a non-German ethnic minority living within the German Reich, as regards their mother tongue in Church services [sermons], religious education and Church societies, will be accorded no less favourable treatment than that accorded by law and in practice to members of German origin and speech living within the boundaries of the corresponding foreign states.

Article 30

On Sundays and official holy days, a prayer conforming to the liturgy will be will be offered at the end of the principal Mass in parish, auxiliary and conventual churches of the German Reich, for the welfare of the German Reich and (German) people.

Article 31

Those Catholic organisations and societies which have exclusively charitable, cultural or religious purposes, and, as such, are placed under the Church authorities, will be protected in terms of their institutions and activities.

Those Catholic organisations which, in addition to their religious, cultural and charitable purposes, have others, such as social or professional tasks – even though they may be brought into national organizations – are to enjoy the protection of Article 31, Paragraph 1, provided they guarantee to conduct their activities outside all political parties.

It is reserved to the Reich Government and the German episcopate, in a joint agreement, to determine which organisations and associations come within the scope of this Article. In so far as the Reich and the states (Länder) take charge of sport and other youth organisations, care will be taken that it shall be possible for the members regularly to attend church on Sundays and feast days, and that they shall not be induced to do anything inconsistent with their religious and moral convictions and obligations.

Article 32

Due to the special situation existing in Germany, and in view of the safeguards created by the clauses of this concordat of legislation preserving the rights and privileges of the Catholic Church in the Reich and its states (Länder), the Holy See will enact regulations to exclude the clergy and members of religious orders from membership in political parties and from working on their behalf.

Article 33

All matters relating to clerical personnel or Church affairs, which have not been treated of in the foregoing Articles, will be regulated for the ecclesiastical sphere according to current Canon Law.

Should differences of opinion arise regarding the interpretation or execution of any of the Articles of this Concordat, the Holy See and the German Reich will reach a friendly solution by mutual agreement.

Article 34

This Concordat, whose German and Italian texts shall have equal binding force, shall be ratified, and the instruments of ratification shall be exchanged, as soon as possible. It will be in force from the day of such exchange.

In witness hereof, the plenipotentiaries have signed this Concordat. Signed in two original copies, in the Vatican City, July 20th, 1933.

(Signed) Eugenio, Cardinal Pacelli

(Signed) Franz von Papen

Supplementary Protocol

At the signing of the concordat concluded today between the Holy See and the German Reich, the properly authorised undersigned have submitted the following agreed-upon explanations which form an integral part of the concordat itself.

Re Article 3

The Apostolic Nuncio to the German Reich, in accordance with the exchange of notes between the apostolic nunciature in Berlin and the Reich Foreign Office on the 11th and the 27th of March 1930, shall be the doyen of the diplomatic corps accredited there.

Re Article 13

It is understood that the Church retains the right to levy Church taxes.

Re Article 14, Par. 2, No. 2

It is understood that when objections of a general political nature exist, they shall be presented within the shortest possible time. If after twenty days such a declaration has not been made, the Holy See will be justified in assuming that no objections exist to the candidate. The names of those being considered will be kept confidential until the announcement of the appointment.

Re Article 17

In so far as public buildings or properties are devoted to ecclesiastical purposes, these are to be retained as before, subject to existing agreements.

Re Article 19, Sentence 2

This clause is based, at the time of signing this concordat, especially on the Apostolic Constitution, Deus Scientiarum Dominus of May 24th, 1931, [12] and the Instruction of July 7th, 1932.

Re Article 20

Hostels for seminarians which are administered by the Church at institutes of higher learning and academic secondary schools/junior colleges (Gymnasien) will be recognized for tax purposes as essentially Church institutions in the proper sense of the word, and as part of the diocesan organisation.

Re Article 24

In so far as private institutions are able to meet the requirements of the new educational code for with teacher training, all existing establishments of religious orders and congregations will be given due consideration in the accordance of recognition.

Re Article 26

A severe moral emergency is taken to exist when there are insuperable difficulties, or ones disproportionately costly to overcome, in obtaining the necessary marriage documents in time.

Re Article 27, Par. 1

Catholic officers, officials and personnel, as well as their families, do not belong to local parishes, and do not support them.

Re Article 27, Par. 4

The publication of the Apostolic Brief will take place after consultation with the Reich Government.

Re Article 28

In urgent cases entry of the clergy is guaranteed at all times.

Re Article 29

Since the Reich Government has agreed to make an accommodation regarding non-German minorities, the Holy See declares – in accordance with the principles it has constantly maintained regarding the right to employ the vernacular in Church services [sermons], religious education and the conduct of Church societies – that it will consider admitting a similar clause to protect the rights of German minorities when establishing concordats with other countries.

Re Article 31, Par. 4

The principles laid down in Article 31, Sect. 4 [sic] hold good also for the Labour Service.

Re Article 32

It is understood that similar regulations regarding activity in party politics will be introduced by the Reich for members of non-Catholic denominations. The conduct, which has been made obligatory for the clergy and members of religious orders in Germany through the implementation of Article 32, does not involve any kind of limitation of the prescribed preaching and explanation of the dogmatic and moral teachings and principles of the Church.

(Signed) Eugenio, Cardinal Pacelli

(Signed) Franz von Papen

At the Vatican City, July 20th, 1933.


Secret Supplement

In case of a change in the present German armed forces in the sense of the introduction of universal conscription, the induction of priests and other members of the regular clergy and the orders into military service will, with the understanding of the Holy See, be arranged within the framework of approximately the following guiding ideas:

a) Students of philosophy and theology at Church institutions who are preparing themselves for the priesthood are to be freed from military service and the preparatory drills for it, except in the case of a general mobilisation.

b) In the case of a general mobilization clerics who are employed in the diocese administration or the military chaplaincy are freed from reporting for duty. This applies to ordinaries, members of the ordinariate, provosts of seminaries and Church residences for seminarians, professors at the seminaries, parish priests, curates, rectors, coadjucators and the clerics who provide a church with worship services on a continuing basis.

c) The remaining clerics, insofar as they are considered suitable, are to join the armed forces of the state in order to devote themselves to pastoral care for the troops under the Church jurisdiction of the military bishops, if they are not inducted into the medical unit.

d) The remaining clergy in sacris or members of orders, who are not yet priests are to be assigned to the medical unit. The same shall apply when possible to the candidates for the priesthood mentioned in a) who have not yet taken their final vows.

So Pius XII would have been fully aware that what Germany had agreed to, they subsequently refused to adhere to.

The Concordat was an effort to protect the religious liberty of Catholics in Germany. Nothing more. As soon as it became apparent that Nazi Germany had no intention of honouring that commitment, the Catholic Church sought to do what it could to undermine Nazi Germany

regress

The revisionism and justifications here are quite extradionary. The Concardat which gave the Vatican powers in Nazi Germany which it had in no other country was negoiated between the future Piux XII and Hitler and signed by Piux XI.

It's primary purpose was to undermine the Catholic Political Party by prohibiting priests from joining it and speaking against the Nazis. It also introduced the Church tax under which all Catholics had to pay a proportion of their income to the Vatican.

To this day the Catholuc Church in Germany is the richest in the world. It receives millions every year from German taxpayers. All because of an agreement between the Pope and Hitler 80 years ago.

No other agreement between a govt and the Vatican has come close to the shameful Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis.

The concessions and extra powered that Pacelli got from Hitler and the cordial and mutually beneficial relationship that followed were major reasons why the man who negoiated it with the Nazid became Pope in 1939.

hinault

regress wrote: »

It's primary purpose was to undermine the Catholic Political Party by prohibiting priests

Under what article of the Concordat?

regress wrote: »

It also introduced the Church tax under which all Catholics had to pay a proportion of their income to the Vatican.

So what?
It doesn't state in the agreement that any tax collected must be paid to the Vatican. If you suggest otherwise please cite the article where it says so.

regress wrote: »

No other agreement between a govt and the Vatican has come close to the shameful Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis.

Compared to the one signed with Napoleon Bonaparte?

regress wrote: »

The concessions and extra powered that Pacelli got from Hitler and the cordial and mutually beneficial relationship that followed were major reasons why the man who negoiated it with the Nazid became Pope in 1939.

And that is baloney.

regress

People who pick stuff from googling, put there by those who are trying to exonerate the Vatican from its role and position in Nazi Germany and the extermination of the Jews should do a bit more research.

hinault

regress wrote: »

People who pick stuff from googling, put there by those who are trying to exonerate the Vatican from its role and position in Nazi Germany and the extermination of the Jews should do a bit more research.

I've provided you with a copy of the Concordat (Reichskonkordat) with all articles and addendums listed.

You've made certain allegations earlier.

I'd like you to substantiate the allegations you made by reference to the articles under which the allegation you make are provided for.

I suggest that you do a bit more research before making allegations.

regress

hinault wrote: »

Under what article of the Concordat?



So what?







Compared to the one signed with Napoleon Bonaparte?
.

Your points in turn

Under Art 6. It effectively neutered independent priests who were critical of the Vatican and destroyed the Catholic Centre Party as a credible opposition party.


You don't think that an agreement by the Nazis to collect a church tax from all German catholic taxpayers and pass it on to the Vatican was not a major change. The kirchsteur conceded by Hitler exists to this day.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Your points in turn

Under Art 6. It effectively neutered independent priests who were critical of the Vatican and destroyed the Catholic Centre Party as a credible opposition party.


You don't think that an agreement by the Nazis to collect a church tax from all German catholic taxpayers and pass it on to the Vatican was not a major change. The kirchsteur conceded by Hitler exists to this day.

Article 6

The clergy and members of religious orders are freed from any obligation to take public office and such obligations as, according to the dictates of Canon Law, are incompatible with the status of a member of the clergy or religious order respectively. This applies particularly to the office of a lay judge, juror, member of a tax committee or of a fiscal tribunal.

Nowhere throughout the Concordat does it state that taxes raised by the church from German citizens is to be given to the Vatican.

regress

It is important to realise that the Vatican and the Nazis had a mutual interest in supressing independent catholic media and political party's in Germany. As well as independent clergy. They both saw them as a threat to be ruthlessly supressed.

hinault

regress wrote: »

It is important to realise that the Vatican and the Nazis had a mutual interest in supressing independent catholic media and political party's in Germany. As well as independent clergy. They both saw them as a threat to be ruthlessly supressed.

In a totalitarian system all organisations become subject to the State.

NSDAP sought to suppress the Catholic church in Germany.

Why, for example, were all school throughout Germany and the Reich not allowed to display Crucifixes from 1937 onward?
In 1937 all schools came under direct control of the government. This is in direct contradiction to the 1933 Concordat.
Can you explain this contradiction?

regress

hinault wrote: »

Article 6


Nowhere throughout the Concordat does it state that taxes raised by the church from German citizens is to be given to the Vatican.

Art 13 was used to levy taxes on catholic germans which were passed on to the Vatican.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Art 13 was used to levy taxes on catholic germans which were passed on to the Vatican.

I don't know what you're talking about.

What Article 13 actually states. No mention of the Vatican or taxes!

Article 13

Catholic parishes, parish and diocesan societies, episcopal sees, bishoprics and chapters, religious orders and congregations, as well as institutions, foundations and property which are under the administration of Church agencies, shall retain or acquire respectively, legal competence in the civil domain according to the general provisions of civil law. They shall remain corporations under public law to the extent that they have been so far; the others may be granted similar rights within the framework of the laws valid for all

You're making less sense as this thread progresses.

regress

hinault wrote: »

In 1937 all schools came under direct control of the government. This is in direct contradiction to the 1933 Concordat.
Can you explain this contradiction?

No it's nit. They changed the boards of management. Are you saying that Ruairi Quinn is a Nazi because he is going the same thing now.

regress

hinault wrote: »

I don't know what you're talking about.

What Article 13 actually states. No mention of the Vatican or taxes!

Article 13

Catholic parishes, parish and diocesan societies, episcopal sees, bishoprics and
chapters, religious orders and congregations, as well as institutions, foundations and property which are under the administration of Church agencies, shall retain or acquire respectively, legal competence in the civil domain according to the general provisions of civil law. They shall remain corporations under public law to the extent that they have been so far; the others may be granted similar rights within the framework of the laws valid for all

You're making less sense as this thread progresses.

Again you are being selective. Art 13 also says. "It is understood that the Church has the right to levy Church taxes."

Understand why that part is deleted by catholic apologists posting bits on the Internet.

hinault

regress wrote: »

No it's nit. They changed the boards of management. Are you saying that Ruairi Quinn is a Nazi because he is going the same thing now.

They did more than change the boards of management in 1937.

In 1936, Hitler ordered that the Gestapo commence surveillance of all Christian churches and clergymen. The Gestapo set up a dedicated unit called "Churches, Sects and Freemasons" in 1936.

In 1937, Christian youth groups including the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides were outlawed by Heinrich Himmler and these groups were subsumed in to the Hitler Youth.
All religious instruction in these groups was outlawed from 1937.

State sponsored denominational schools were outlawed from 1938 and all funding funding for these schools was terminated.
All displays of religious symbols in schools was outlawed.

In 1939, all ecclesiastical schools were outlawed and closed and education by clergymen was outlawed.
Religious congregations were ordered to terminate church collections also.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Again you are being selective. Art 13 also says. "It is understood that the Church has the right to levy Church taxes."

The supplementary protocol:rolleyes:

Let's read the supplementary protocol article 13.

It is understood that the Church retains the right to levy Church taxes

The word retains is kinda important because it suggests that the right existed prior to the Concordat.
In other words the German Catholic church already had authority to raise taxes prior to any agreement.

Still no mention of the Vatican either:D

regress wrote: »

Understand why that part is deleted by catholic apologists posting bits on the Internet.

I'm more interested in historical accuracy.

regress

Only bits of the above are half true. But christian youth groups were not under control of Vatican and of course they were replaced by Hitler Youth of which Pope Benedict was.member. Although thats not a criticism or an insinuation.

And I don't see the point of continuing church gate collections once the millions began flooding in from the new church tax.


Heinrich Himmler by the way was.a practicing roman catholic who went to mass on Sunday's.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Only bits of the above are half true.

If only bits of the above are true you're suggesting that historians Richard Evans and Richard Overy are inaccurate?
Are you for real?

regress wrote: »

And I don't see the point of continuing church gate collections once the millions began flooding in from the new church tax.

Citizens throughout Germany pay tithes if they wish to do so.
Tithes apply to any/all denominations.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Heinrich Himmler by the way was.a practicing roman catholic who went to mass on Sunday's.

Incorrect.

"Peter Padfield notes that from late 1923 to early 1924, Himmler's reading included books on spiritualism, second sight, astrology, telepathy and the like. Himmler was interested also in herbalism, rural life and agriculture [Graber] - he was rather a "back-to-nature", "New Age" sort of man. His activities and growing beliefs led him to renounce his once strong faith in the Catholic Church by the summer of 1924"

Himmler was an Occultist
http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/himmler.htm

The Corinthian

regress wrote: »

To this day the Catholuc Church in Germany is the richest in the world. It receives millions every year from German taxpayers. All because of an agreement between the Pope and Hitler 80 years ago.

Actually the Kirchensteuer was first introduced by the Weimar Constitution of 1919. It also covered other religious denominations; notably the Lutheran church which was the largest religious denomination in later Nazi Germany - something that seems to be repeatedly ignored here.

To understand the Kirchensteuer system of taxation, you have to consider that Germanic counties tend to do so at the local, or Gemeinde, level and you'll actually find simelar or identical systems in place also in Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland and Iceland.

Money does not go to the Vatican, but is given to the local churches.

regress

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually the Kirchensteuer was first introduced by the Weimar Constitution of 1919. It also covered other religious denominations; notably the Lutheran church which was the largest religious denomination in later Nazi Germany - something that seems to be repeatedly ignored here.

To understand the Kirchensteuer system of taxation, you have to consider that Germanic counties tend to do so at the local, or Gemeinde, level and you'll actually find simelar or identical systems in place also in Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland and Iceland.

Money does not go to the Vatican, but is given to the local churches.

Irrespective of what google says this is rubbish. The tax wasn't collected till after the 1933 concordat between the future Pius XII and Hitler.

To this day it is referred to colloquially in Germany as the "Hitler tax" last year it brought over €10 billion to the church.

Anyway get the discussion back to core issues.

1 The refusal of the Vatican to criticize or condemn the extermination of millions of Jews by roman Catholics.

In my opinion arguing that the Vatican was afraid to criticize the Holocaust or unaware that Catholics were involved and doing it in the name of Jesus Christ is ridiculous.

The Pope and the church were not innocent bystanders. There participation and approval was crucial.

The Corinthian

regress wrote: »

Irrespective of what google says this is rubbish.

We'll just take your word on it, shall we?

The tax wasn't collected till after the 1933 concordat between the future Pius XII and Hitler.

I don't believe that is true. Do you have any sources for this claim?

Actually, while you're at it, how did this tie in with the Kirchensteuer in Switzerland and Sweden?

To this day it is referred to colloquially in Germany as the "Hitler tax" last year it brought over €10 billion to the church.

And this I can definitely say is utter bullshìt. It is not, colloquially or otherwise, referred to the "Hitler tax" in Germany and that claim is a complete fabrication.

Anyway get the discussion back to core issues.

I would have thought that your repeatedly presenting false facts would be pretty core to the discussion.

alastair

regress wrote: »

And I don't see the point of continuing church gate collections once the millions began flooding in from the new church tax.

It wasn't a new church tax. It was a reaffirmation of the existing church tax - which was legislated for in 1919 - well before Hitler had any say in things. All established religions in Germany had the option of levying their own church taxes - including the German Jewish community - who did just that. The Catholic Church in Germany was't acting in any exceptional fashion in that regard.

You've some remarkably biased and skewed beliefs going on in this thread. Lets blame the church for their own failings - it's not like there's a need to add to the pile with this sort of guff.

Leftist

raymon wrote: »

There are many reasons why I think FF should be disbanded in shame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jId5TXtnL0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This clip shows the typical arrogance, incompetence and ignorance so common amongst their ranks

the idiot just goes off into a waffle