Am I going to hell?

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 01:54PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I was always taught that God knows all things.
If that is so then why did he have to give us a "free will"? He already knows how we will use it.
I was always taught that God is all "forgiving" . If that is so then why the need for Hell?

My religion is going downhill as I keep finding problems with some of the stuff we were taught.

God is forgiving which is true but that doesnt mean that you can keep sinning, he expects that when you sin to return back to him and he will forgive you not throw you out and thats why people go to hell because they didnt accept or ask his forgiveness

tayto lover · 06-07-2013 02:00PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

God is forgiving which is true but that doesnt mean that you can keep sinning, he expects that when you sin to return back to him and he will forgive you not throw you out and thats why people go to hell because they didnt accept or ask his forgiveness

Again, He also knows what you will do in advance so what's the point in the whole exercise?

tommy2bad · 06-07-2013 02:53PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Again, He also knows what you will do in advance so what's the point in the whole exercise?

No. He doesn't know in advance, their isn't an 'advance' or before or after for a timeless being. He knows it all at the same time which is different from knowing the outcome before your life is finished. Difficult to comprehend or explain as we are time bound beings and tbh not a good idea, look where it took Calvin.

MrPudding · 06-07-2013 03:05PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

No. He doesn't know in advance, their isn't an 'advance' or before or after for a timeless being. He knows it all at the same time which is different from knowing the outcome before your life is finished. Difficult to comprehend or explain as we are time bound beings and tbh not a good idea, look where it took Calvin.

Mere semantics that does nothing to address the point. Again, like arguing over the colour of the seats when there is dispute over the very existence of the car.

MrP

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 03:10PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Again, He also knows what you will do in advance so what's the point in the whole exercise?

God has set a few rules for mankind as seen in the old testament when the Jews were told about laws, they were expected to be obeyed not broken and so God decides the rules and we expected to obey them and God doesnt predestine anyone to heaven or hell before creation but our actions bring us to our place and God only knows what actions we will take and not forcing you take them.

Eg. Man is offered the temptation of taking drugs. If he refuses, he goes to heaven but if he uses drugs he goes to hell.God knows the decision man is going to make not what must be taken meaning if the person is destined to hell God is going to limit the choice of not taking the drugs and the other way around if he goes to heaven.

God doesn't force the decision on his people rather they are given free will.:D

Gumbi · 06-07-2013 03:18PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

God has set a few rules for mankind as seen in the old testament when the Jews were told about laws, they were expected to be obeyed not broken and so God decides the rules and we expected to obey them and God doesnt predestine anyone to heaven or hell before creation but our actions bring us to our place and God only knows what actions we will take and not forcing you take them.

Eg. Man is offered the temptation of taking drugs. If he refuses, he goes to heaven but if he uses drugs he goes to hell.God knows the decision man is going to make not what must be taken meaning if the person is destined to hell God is going to limit the choice of not taking the drugs and the other way around if he goes to heaven.

God doesn't force the decision on his people rather they are given free will.:D

Well, first of all, there's nothing inherently wrong with taking drugs, in my opinion. But I digress.

So, God knows the decision that person is going to make; what is the point of it!? You didn't answer the question at all. I didn't really understand your second point, but you seem to imply that God would limit "tough moral decisions" if he knew the person would be likely to do the wrong thing? This makes no sense at all. Then you introduced a kind of pre-destination concept?

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 03:28PM

Gumbi wrote: »

Well, first of all, there's nothing inherently wrong with taking drugs, in my opinion. But I digress.

So, God knows the decision that person is going to make; what is the point of it!? You didn't answer the question at all. I didn't really understand your second point, but you seem to imply that God would limit "tough moral decisions" if he knew the person would be likely to do the wrong thing? This makes no sense at all. Then you introduced a kind of pre-destination concept?

God knows the decision but you dont and you are offered choice between taking drugs or not.

Gumbi · 06-07-2013 03:31PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

God knows the decision but you dont and you are offered choice between taking drugs or not.

It's not really free will if God knows what I'm going to do, is it? And if he knows I'm going to do the wrong thing, according to your simplified example, I am doomed to hell no matter what. How is that fair?

tommy2bad · 06-07-2013 03:57PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

God knows the decision but you dont and you are offered choice between taking drugs or not.

Again.... God dosn't know what decision you will make until you make it. For you that's in the future, for God it's now. This isn't as hard as it sounds, you live in a linear time frame, God exists in a non linear time, it always now for God.

tayto lover · 06-07-2013 04:01PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Again.... God dosn't know what decision you will make until you make it. For you that's in the future, for God it's now. This isn't as hard as it sounds, you live in a linear time frame, God exists in a non linear time, it always now for God.

So now it's " God doesn't know" what we will do with our free will?

I was always taught that "God knows all things he is almighty".

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 04:11PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So now it's " God doesn't know" what we will do with our free will?

I was always taught that "God knows all things he is almighty".

He is:D

silentrust · 06-07-2013 04:18PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Again.... God dosn't know what decision you will make until you make it. For you that's in the future, for God it's now. This isn't as hard as it sounds, you live in a linear time frame, God exists in a non linear time, it always now for God.

So much for omniscience. Out of interest what religion are you? It's just I doubt very much your own Church would agree that God has no knowledge of future events?

The expression "hoisted on your own petard" springs to mind... :-D

silentrust · 06-07-2013 04:24PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

Eg. Man is offered the temptation of taking drugs. If he refuses, he goes to heaven but if he uses drugs he goes to hell.God knows the decision man is going to make not what must be taken meaning if the person is destined to hell God is going to limit the choice of not taking the drugs and the other way around if he goes to heaven.

God doesn't force the decision on his people rather they are given free will.:D

I don't believe in God but enjoy discussing religion just because it doesn't even make sense on it's own terms.

God apparently has foreknowledge of our actions, we can either submit to what we believe he wants and be rewarded or ignore it and suffer an eternity of punishment. There can be any number of factors outside a person's control which could lead him or her to unknowingly break any of God's commandments in addition to issues which the desert tribes couldn't even have begun to legislate for, as they didn't exist at the time e.g stem cell research..

...and yet despite all this, the fact our lives are already mapped out in God's mind, that apparently he has a vested interest in which choices we make and has apparently offered incentives and horrific punishments to affect our decision and despite the fact that there's no way mainstream religion can help us arrive at a decision on key social issues, we have free will?

p.s The Hitch smashes this point of view much more effectively than I can here:

peaceboi · 06-07-2013 04:27PM

To the op
According to the Bible,John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

silentrust · 06-07-2013 04:30PM

peaceboi wrote: »

To the op
According to the Bible,John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Yes, I'm more interested in the "shall not perish" bit, as I think is the OP... burning in fire as memory serves?

peaceboi · 06-07-2013 05:31PM

Jesus himself speaks clearly about the perishing bit here -
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell".
Matthew 10:28

About the physical torment here-
"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame."
Luke 16:24

And about hell here-
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night"
Revelation 14:11

silentrust · 06-07-2013 05:47PM

peaceboi wrote: »

Jesus himself speaks clearly about the perishing bit here -
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell".
Matthew 10:28

And about the physical torment here-
"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame."
Luke 16:24

Ok, so it seems God clarifies his position nicely : Believe in me or else. Also there seems to be an added incentive for the righteous who not only get to reap the benefits of being in paradise but also the vicarious pleasure of seeing their fellow man in eternal torment.

I still am with the OP on this, think I'll take my chances. :-)

silentrust · 06-07-2013 05:53PM

See also:

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 05:54PM

silentrust wrote: »

Ok, so it seems God clarifies his position nicely : Believe in me or else. Also there seems to be an added incentive for the righteous who not only get to reap the benefits of being in paradise but also the vicarious pleasure of seeing their fellow man in eternal torment.

I still am with the OP on this, think I'll take my chances. :-)

Why would you want to spend an eternity in hell tormented by demons. It takes nothing to accept Christ and you have nothing to lose. Why wait till the last judgement and find out hell exists and not have time to repent but accept Christianity and Christ himself will reveal the truth to you like he did to me and the truth will set you free.

tayto lover · 06-07-2013 06:06PM

peaceboi wrote: »

Jesus himself speaks clearly about the perishing bit here -
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell".
Matthew 10:28

About the physical torment here-
"And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame."
Luke 16:24

And about hell here-
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night"
Revelation 14:11

Now how is that "clearly"? Its riddles.
I do not think we could have a God who would punish anyone eternally like you describe here -- "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night". That does not describe a forgiving God.

If I don't choose to believe such a God exists and choose to lead my life by doing nobody any harm do you think I will be punished as described above?

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 06:11PM

silentrust wrote: »

Ok, so it seems God clarifies his position nicely : Believe in me or else. Also there seems to be an added incentive for the righteous who not only get to reap the benefits of being in paradise but also the vicarious pleasure of seeing their fellow man in eternal torment.

I still am with the OP on this, think I'll take my chances. :-)

tayto lover wrote: »

Now how is that "clearly"? Its riddles.
I do not think we could have a God who would punish anyone eternally like you describe here -- "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night". That does not describe a forgiving God.

If I don't choose to believe such a God exists and choose to lead my life by doing nobody any harm do you think I will be punished as described above?

God says that he is a forgiving because he will forgive a person after he sins and when you say a life of no harm, please abide by the moral laws such as no physical relationship before marriage and this as said by Mary at the Fatima apparition "More souls go to Hell because of the sins of the flesh than for any other reason.".

Think about it and keep away from mortal sins and this should at least avoid you hell even if you dont go to church.

silentrust · 06-07-2013 06:13PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

Why would you want to spend an eternity in hell tormented by demons. It takes nothing to accept Christ and you have nothing to lose. Why wait till the last judgement and find out hell exists and not have time to repent but accept Christianity and Christ himself will reveal the truth to you like he did to me and the truth will set you free.

Well the obvious answer is that I don't believe there is a God (or at least not one whose intentions we can divine and interacts in any meaningful with human affairs) so I don't believe I am risking anything in so doing.

However it seems you're paraphrasing Pascal's famous wager which was as you say that on the face of it, it seems that I stand everything to gain by believing a Jewish Carpenter was half a God and his father is a God, and everything to lose by not doing so.

However it's fairly simple to see why it's not an option in this case. I could come with you to Church, say the words but it still remains my honest conviction that religion is man-made and based on a false premise, and of course if God is real, he'll be aware of it.

As such I can look forward to a long eternity of torment no matter what I do, including living my life in an otherwise morally upright way - perhaps something to think over for those who say we Atheists lack conviction. :-)

silentrust · 06-07-2013 06:14PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

"More souls go to Hell because of the sins of the flesh than for any other reason.".
.

In that case I'm definitely headed downstairs. :-D

silentrust · 06-07-2013 06:17PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Now how is that "clearly"? Its riddles.
I do not think we could have a God who would punish anyone eternally like you describe here -- "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night". That does not describe a forgiving God.

If I don't choose to believe such a God exists and choose to lead my life by doing nobody any harm do you think I will be punished as described above?

Frankly tayto lover it's actually quite refreshing to see a Christian come and nail their colours to the mast. Most of the Christians I talk to are the liberal CofE types who say that we should interpret such passages allegorically or it'll be alright so long as we repent at the end and so on - the Bible/Talmud/Koran doesn't actually give us that much leeway.

You either play by the rules or it's the steakhouse for you... says our all loving Father in Heaven. :-)

This is why I said Christians are hoisted on their own petard. To be a logically consistent Christian, you have to be a despicable human being, to be a decent human being, you must be an inconsistent Christian.

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 06:26PM

silentrust wrote: »

In that case I'm definitely headed downstairs. :-D

1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him

We have conceived so much about heave and hell but God says heaven is beyond our imagination and we already what hell is partly which is a lake of fire.

silentrust · 06-07-2013 06:35PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him

We have conceived so much about heave and hell but God says heaven is beyond our imagination and we already what hell is partly which is a lake of fire.

Sometimes the Scriptures get it right it seems - in a way this is true. Certainly when people tell me that not only is there an afterlife but they know the conditions that have to be met to enter it, I try to pull them up short - there is no way they can know this.

Of course most people tell me their knowledge comes from personal revelation ; during my short but colourful time actually several people of various, contradictory faiths have said this and we're still no nearer to the truth.

Considering that either an eternity of either happiness or torment are at stake here, I really don't think it's too much to ask for some objective evidence or a direct manifestation of the divine in order to embrace religion. God however doesn't seem to feel strongly enough on the matter to set me straight, something I will point out to him if I am wrong when the time comes... :-)

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 06:51PM

silentrust wrote: »

In that case I'm definitely headed downstairs. :-D

Remember that the Rich man in the story in the New testament had a blind ego saying that he was rich and didnt care about the poor man but when he reached hell he said to the poor man to spare him a drop of water in his place of suffering
and he also said to tell his brothers to change their current lifestyle and repent but Abraham the prophets are there to tell him and even if dead person came to life, they wouldnt believe him which means people like me can only tell you and even if we performed miracles you seem like you will be adamant till the end.

silentrust · 06-07-2013 07:02PM

onlinenerd wrote: »

Remember that the Rich man in the story in the New testament had a blind ego saying that he was rich and didnt care about the poor man but when he reached hell he said to the poor man to spare him a drop of water in his place of suffering
and he also said to tell his brothers to change their current lifestyle and repent but Abraham the prophets are there to tell him and even if dead person came to life, they wouldnt believe him which means people like me can only tell you and even if we performed miracles you seem like you will be adamant till the end.

..and here we come to the crux of the problem my friend. I could well want to help poor people and donate to charity (as I do), volunteer in soup kitchens, refrain from cheating people etc. etc. but apparently this isn't enough for God. Unless I accept that a carpenter who lived 2,000 is my only route to Salvation then I am to be plunged into a lake of fire.

Not only is it a doctrine that lacks credibility, it is morally reprehensible, particularly for those people who unlike me and you have never even been given the choice as they're not aware of Christianity or are not free to practise it.

onlinenerd · 06-07-2013 07:13PM

silentrust wrote: »

..and here we come to the crux of the problem my friend. I could well want to help poor people and donate to charity (as I do), volunteer in soup kitchens, refrain from cheating people etc. etc. but apparently this isn't enough for God. Unless I accept that a carpenter who lived 2,000 is my only route to Salvation then I am to be plunged into a lake of fire.

Not only is it a doctrine that lacks credibility, it is morally reprehensible, particularly for those people who unlike me and you have never even been given the choice as they're not aware of Christianity or are not free to practise it.

So you that God is not lavish and extravagant for you and learn to accept God and maybe attend a retreat like I did and then accept God lightly and you will see changes in life including prayer life and this is not just for me but for millions of other people who accept Christ.

Andrewf20 · 07-07-2013 06:01AM

onlinenerd wrote: »

Why would you want to spend an eternity in hell tormented by demons. It takes nothing to accept Christ and you have nothing to lose. Why wait till the last judgement and find out hell exists and not have time to repent but accept Christianity and Christ himself will reveal the truth to you like he did to me and the truth will set you free.

Its probably a case of "I cant believe" instead of "I wont believe" for alot of people.

Am I going to hell?

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