Dissident turfcutters

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 11:19PM

washman3 wrote: »

Take it these were the ones introduced and funded by Coillte that were poisoned by farmers in Kerry and Donegal whose sheep were plagued by them during lambing season.?
The arguement prevails : bird of prey or vermin, to me irs the latter.!

Nope they aren't Harriers. (incorrect point 1)

One of the re-introduction projects was partly sponsored by Coillte, but it wasn't in Kerry or Donegal and it wasn't Hen Harriers or any other Harrier species. (incorrect point 2)

Sheep were not plagued with them at all - the opinion of the majority of farmers where raptors were re-introduced was very hostile at the start, but they have seen in the 5 or 6 years since that that they do not in fact take lambs at all. They're scavengers! (incorrect point 3)

birds or prey or vermin? they're birds of prey! (incorrect point 4)

4 incorrect points in less than 4 lines - are you going for a record or something?

An example of vermin would be someone who posts very flawed comments on public forums, all of which are easily googled to see if they were correct before posting, and ends up spreading harmful misinformation as a result.

Capercaille · 01-07-2013 11:21PM

washman3 wrote: »

Take it these were the ones introduced and funded by Coillte that were poisoned by farmers in Kerry and Donegal whose sheep were plagued by them during lambing season.?
The arguement prevails : bird of prey or vermin, to me irs the latter.!

There has been no re-introduction programme by Coillte nor any other body for Hen Harrier. They feed on small birds mainly meadow pipit, skylarks and small mammals like mice. They don't feed on sheep. Post any link to Hen Harrier feeding on Sheep????
You are confusing them with Sea Eagles in Kerry and Golden Eagle in Donegal. Both of which have suffered greatly from poisoning.

M three · 01-07-2013 11:22PM

MadsL wrote: »

Explain to me how you site multi-ton wind turbines in a bog will ya? More importantly how do you build a road to get to them? Next explain how you get planning permission for such a thing in a Natura 2000 or SAC site which has EU protection.

And you call us misinformed (mind boggled)

CT Forum
>

Ah bless, sorry this is all news to you. Maybe instead of ranting on here do at least a small bit of research into the subject matter.

http://www.bordnamona.ie/our-company/our-businesses/power-generation/wind/

"Bord na Móna is the majority (88.5%) shareholder in Renewable Energy Ireland Ltd.(REIL), which established Ireland’s first commercial wind farm on cutaway blanket bog at Bellacorick, Co. Mayo in 1992."

And not only can they build wind turbines in blanket bogs now they can even build them in the sea.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=sea+wind+farm&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7wDSUfPlDNPT7AaeqoG4CA&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=677

Jimoslimos · 01-07-2013 11:24PM

washman3 wrote: »

Probably 50-75% of what they might pay to take the same route during the day. Enlighten us.!

Not spent much time in Dublin have you?

RealExpert · 01-07-2013 11:24PM

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0629/459590-turf-cutting/

So AH, are they heroes standing up for Ireland or a bunch of idiots who cannot understand habitat protection.

Personally, I think there is huge self interest at play, people who have invested in expensive machinery who have riled up local people and are presenting it as some heroic effort.

These people are to be admired not prosecuted.The sooner everyone else follows suit the better.
The only one that will complain about the turfcutters are the people that dont own a bog themselves and dont forget it was Michael D that sold them out.....Bord na mona aint closed and we all know why so fook the habitat protection/agreement.

I live close to some of those bogs and to see the resources and money the government is wasting is unreal......they have aeroplanes, helicopters and lots of squad cars watching it.Its just crazy to see how wasteful our government is.

B0jangles · 01-07-2013 11:32PM

I can speak for all the middle-class Dubbalin kids forced by hippy-dippy parents into cutting turf for a summer because it seemed awesome at the time.

No it wasn't. It was astoundingly boring - we spent the whole summer wishing we'd fall into bogholes and thus need to be rescued purely for something to do.

I still hate egg-sammatches and bloody bloody bogholes.

washman3 · 01-07-2013 11:32PM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Not spent much time in Dublin have you?

i'd rather go to Bagdad or Tehran.:P
its possibly the biggest kip of a capital city in Europe.
i visited Tirana once, a kip, but at least i felt safe there.

Nermal · 01-07-2013 11:39PM

washman3 wrote: »

i'd rather go to Bagdad or Tehran.:P
its possibly the biggest kip of a capital city in Europe.
i visited Tirana once, a kip, but at least i felt safe there.

It's amazing how nearly every bogtrotter can list so many cities that they've spent time in that compare favourably to Dublin. How come so many of you are still here? Please stay away, and perhaps we'll pay the fines to allow you continue huddling around burning dirt in your ghost estates.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 11:41PM

washman3 wrote: »

i'd rather go to Bagdad or Tehran.:P
its possibly the biggest kip of a capital city in Europe.
i visited Tirana once, a kip, but at least i felt safe there.

Well just so you know if you're ever in Dublin and are expecting to get the nite link for 50-75% of what the trip costs during the day - you're better off to start walking because its €5+ a trip! Doesn't sound like its subsidised too much does it???

And I'm sure I can speak for the Dublin people when I say we'd rather you go to Baghdad or Tehran too

Gee Bag · 01-07-2013 11:43PM

MadsL wrote: »

Get it right.

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/blanket-bogs/
http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/raised-bogs/

Eh, get it right you say?
The links you posted confirm what myself and others have already pointed out about you being mistaken.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 11:46PM

RealExpert wrote: »

These people are to be admired not prosecuted.The sooner everyone else follows suit the better.
The only one that will complain about the turfcutters are the people that dont own a bog themselves and dont forget it was Michael D that sold them out.....Bord na mona aint closed and we all know why so fook the habitat protection/agreement.

I live close to some of those bogs and to see the resources and money the government is wasting is unreal......they have aeroplanes, helicopters and lots of squad cars watching it.Its just crazy to see how wasteful our government is.

The sooner everyone follows suit the sooner this country ends up back in the stone age and worse than every other country in Europe.

Its not a waste - we'll be fined to kingdom come if they keep destroying protected habitats! Its the illegal turfcutters causing any waste of resources. Also part of the reason aerial surveys and so many Gardai are needed is because of the threats of violence and even death threats that these people 'to be admired' have made against Rangers.

NuckingFacker · 01-07-2013 11:56PM

Ooohh, we're getting fined by the EU for the bad men cutting turf. Any small clue as to what else we're getting fined for? Ireland has more EU penalty points and ongoing fines than a drunk TD on his way up the Naas Rd. If we missed many more "fineable" EU targets we'll need to set them up on a direct debit.

I always get a teeeeensy bit suspicious when what should be pretty "uninvolved and impartial" people get all "riled up" and start posting neat links about a topic. I always start smelling the whiff of ulterior motives. No idea why. I'm probably just a mad, paranoid idiot. Hmm.

end of the road · 01-07-2013 11:58PM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

we're talking about the greater good of the population

who the majority of couldn't care a less about protection of bogs they will never visit, the reason they may care is because of the fines but thats it, sure if you ask them they will say they care but really they just care about putting food on the table and if it meant them going to these bogs many would do it if it meant some money in their pockets

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

thats how society works and improves!

you don't say

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

But good for you using your uninformed opinion to champion the 'underdog'!

i'm very informed thank you, and yes i will continue to gladly support those who want to harvest a vitally important cheep source of fuel

B0jangles · 02-07-2013 12:07AM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Ooohh, we're getting fined by the EU for the bad men cutting turf. Any small clue as to what else we're getting fined for? Ireland has more EU penalty points and ongoing fines than a drunk TD on his way up the Naas Rd. If we missed many more "fineable" EU targets we'll need to set them up on a direct debit.

I always get a teeeeensy bit suspicious when what should be pretty "uninvolved and impartial" people get all "riled up" and start posting neat links about a topic. I always start smelling the whiff of ulterior motives. No idea why. I'm probably just a mad, paranoid idiot. Hmm.

I'm no kind of a monomaniac and I still think these turf-cutters are selfish wankpots.

This is a small country, we have little enough left that is precious, and these tossers think it is more important that they keep heating their houses for free than we preserve the massively depleted natural environment of this country.

B0jangles · 02-07-2013 12:08AM

end of the road wrote: »

who the majority of couldn't care a less about protection of bogs they will never visit, the reason they may care is because of the fines but thats it, sure if you ask them they will say they care but really they just care about putting food on the table and if it meant them going to these bogs many would do it if it meant some money in their pockets

you don't say

i'm very informed thank you, and yes i will continue to gladly support those who want to harvest a vitally important cheep source of fuel

^^ Massive wankpot ^^^

Tell me, do you defend the right to an existence of dog-fighters, bowyers, coopers, cock-fighters, and all the other purveyors of obsolete entertainemts of the last thousand years>>

PRAF · 02-07-2013 12:09AM

I wonder if any of the illegal turf cutters are recipients of grants, subsidies, social protection payments, etc? I suspect yes. The law is clear and needs to be enforced. Confiscate their machines, arrest a few of them, take away some grants and this issue goes away.

OpenYourEyes · 02-07-2013 12:17AM

end of the road wrote: »

who the majority of couldn't care a less about protection of bogs they will never visit, the reason they may care is because of the fines but thats it, sure if you ask them they will say they care but really they just care about putting food on the table and if it meant them going to these bogs many would do it if it meant some money in their pockets

What people care about and the greater good of those same people can often be very seperate things. Luckily we have legislation to look after the latter. Long-term thinking is better than short-term thinking.

NuckingFacker · 02-07-2013 12:19AM

PRAF wrote: »

I wonder if any of the illegal turf cutters are recipients of grants, subsidies, social protection payments, etc? I suspect yes. The law is clear and needs to be enforced. Confiscate their machines, arrest a few of them, take away some grants and this issue goes away.

And if we could only agree on what exactly the real issue was, this solution would be perfect. We can then go on to enforce the law on Corporate malfesance, tax evasion, Rigging of publically awarded licences, Fraud and Embezzelment. With the World then fully put to rights, we can all sit back in our oil-heated homes and smugly pat ourselves on the backs for a job well done.

PRAF · 02-07-2013 12:34AM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

And if we could only agree on what exactly the real issue was, this solution would be perfect. We can then go on to enforce the law on Corporate malfesance, tax evasion, Rigging of publically awarded licences, Fraud and Embezzelment. With the World then fully put to rights, we can all sit back in our oil-heated homes and smugly pat ourselves on the backs for a job well done.

The issue under discussion is illegal turf cutting, it's quite simple. Nobody expects a perfect solution here. I just don't want the country's environmental heritage destroyed and I certainly don't want EU fines when the country is already in a bad place financially. This isn't some sort of civil rights issue, this is gombeenism. The law should be upheld as it should also be upheld in the other issues you mention.

Neddyusa · 02-07-2013 12:43AM

So you don't use electricity, travel in cars or live in buildings heated by burning oil imported from the far side of the world and causing habitat damage on every mile of its journey.....Fair play to you, you really do hold the moral high ground to lecture and insult people who harvest their own local fuel!
(turf being much more renewable over the long term than oil too by the way)

Although with over ten-thousand posts on this website it must be some windmill you use to power that laptop:pac:

Too be honest though for someone who does not know the difference between blanket bog and raised bog to spend so much time on a thread like this you could probably keep the laptops of the country powered on bulls**t and hot air.

Get a life buddy.....or maybe a job:D

MadsL wrote: »

Then tell me on which of the active 53 raised bog Natura 2000 sites Bord na Mona are actively cutting turf? Please, I'd love to know. A linky would be handy.

And you appear to not know the difference between a bog and an protected bog. Yet you constantly conflagrate the two.

Let me guess, you are making assumptions, a significant proportion of the electricity I used to use in Ireland was wind generated. But all of this is a strawman; the purpose of bog protection is to protect the HABITAT not prevent the use of a fossil fuel. Although given climate change tearing up and burning naturally occurring carbon sinks is as close to madness as I can see.

Strawman argument.

Footin' a bit o'turf is it? Sweating in the fields etc etc (hark! is that a tin whistle) sorry, it was drowned out by the sound of the JCB and your self-righteous babble.

You are attacking the production of modern clean electricity sources? Wow, perhaps we should start harvesting whales again for lamp oil, y'know locally - creating local employment and all.

I have posted and linked the difference. The vast majority of SAC sites/Natura 2000 sites under protection are active raised bog.

53 Raised Bog Special Areas of Conservation

75 Raised Bog Natural Heritage Areas

OpenYourEyes · 02-07-2013 12:56AM

Neddyusa wrote: »

So you don't use electricity, travel in cars or live in buildings heated by burning oil imported from the far side of the world and causing habitat damage on every mile of its journey.....Fair play to you, you really do hold the moral high ground to lecture and insult people who harvest their own local fuel!
(turf being much more renewable over the long term than oil too by the way)

Bogs are active Carbon Sinks - if you leave them alone they'll keep sucking in and sequestering carbon. If you drain them and cut them they wont.

Coal and Oil are not active Carbon sinks - they're holding large amounts of carbon, but not taking any more carbon in on a daily basis like bogs are.

Turf takes thousands of years to form - to call it sustainable even in comparison to other fossil fuels is simply inaccurate.

Also, when there's rural flooding on the news next winter and the locals are looking for money to help them out, its worth checking if they're beside a raised bog that has been cut. Obviously not all of them will be, but many will, and if that bog beside them wasn't cut it'd hold a huge amount of water that could spare many rural roads/houses/farms from flooding. Worth keeping in mind when you're selling the benefits of "their own local fuel".

end of the road · 02-07-2013 01:00AM

PRAF wrote: »

I wonder if any of the illegal turf cutters are recipients of grants, subsidies, social protection payments, etc? I suspect yes. The law is clear and needs to be enforced. Confiscate their machines, arrest a few of them, take away some grants and this issue goes away.

wrong and delusianel, take away any money they get and they will have to cut even more turf to stay a float

oppenheimer1 · 02-07-2013 01:07AM

Neddyusa wrote: »

So you don't use electricity, travel in cars or live in buildings heated by burning oil imported from the far side of the world and causing habitat damage on every mile of its journey.....Fair play to you, you really do hold the moral high ground to lecture and insult people who harvest their own local fuel!
(turf being much more renewable over the long term than oil too by the way)

Although with over ten-thousand posts on this website it must be some windmill you use to power that laptop:pac:

Too be honest though for someone who does not know the difference between blanket bog and raised bog to spend so much time on a thread like this you could probably keep the laptops of the country powered on bulls**t and hot air.

Get a life buddy.....or maybe a job

You haven't addressed any of his points but chose to attack him personally. I'd say if anyone has lost the argument its you.

Now I've lifted many a sod of turf on the bog over the years, but I have to say I agree completely with NPWS on this. Everyone was warned 10+ years ago that the cutting would have to stop on the conserved bogs. As I said before, I feel it is the contractors that are driving this protest so I would target them. I would leave the compensation scheme in place for those that decide to stop cutting, but I would allow those that haven't taken up the scheme to hand cut turf for maybe a few more years before full closure of the bogs. I also wouldn't allow these people to claim EU grants and farming subsidy in relation to these lands if they weren't being conserved.

You'll find there won't be many takers for this back breaking work. People wouldn't be cutting more than they need or cutting turf for sale anyway

Jester252 · 02-07-2013 01:54AM

The amount of pointless arguements here is something. Nightlink, wind turbines, fuel import, electricty generation, other issues with Ireland and just been thrown around as to why they should keep cutting.
Why should taxpayer foot the bill for them to keep cutting?
Why should other people put up with incressed carbon emissons?

MadsL · 02-07-2013 05:02AM

Gee Bag wrote: »

MadsL wrote: »

Get it right.

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/blanket-bogs/
http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/raised-bogs/

Eh, get it right you say?
The links you posted confirm what myself and others have already pointed out about you being mistaken.

You say that I am mistaken and that it is primarily blanket bog that is being protected and prevented from cutting, not raised bog. Is that your view?

Then forgive me if I quote extensively and show you the reality.

In relation to private turf cutting, which involves tens of thousands of individuals in 128 designated sites around the country, the government introduced the “Cessation of Turf Cutting Scheme” in 1999. Under the voluntary scheme, domestic cutters were given 10 years notice to cease cutting turf and make new arrangements for their fuel supply. The 10 years notice or derogation, was given in light of the social and economic impacts immediate cessation of turf cutting would have had. The first derogation applied to 32 raised bog SACs designated in 1999, with cessation of turf cutting in 2009.

The 10 year derogation for the remaining 21 raised bog SACs designated in 2002 or thereafter is planned to be implemented in 2012, with the cessation of all turf cutting on these sites. The cessation of turf cutting on the 75 designated raised bog NHAs is planned to be implemented in 2014. The government are presently forming an inter-departmental working group with the aim of successfully implementing the cessation of turf cutting scheme. Over €23 million has been paid in compensation to turbary rights holders under this scheme and it is estimated that up to €250 million will be needed to compensate all remaining turbary rights holders. The cessation of turf cutting does not apply to blanket bog SACs and NHAs at the moment, except on blanket bog sites where turf cutting is found to be seriously affecting the conservation value of the site.

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/peatland-action-plan/over-exploitation-of-peatlands-for-peat/

Now one of us is wrong, and it ain't me.

Neddyusa wrote: »

So you don't use electricity, travel in cars or live in buildings heated by burning oil imported from the far side of the world and causing habitat damage on every mile of its journey.....Fair play to you, you really do hold the moral high ground to lecture and insult people who harvest their own local fuel!

Not that it is any of your business but i am about to invest significantly in solar on my property and generate electricity - green energy at that.

(turf being much more renewable over the long term than oil too by the way)

Renewable??? Are you having a laugh? It's a fossil fuel! Your argument is like saying as arsenic is less poisonous than mercury it is ok to dump it in the well.

Although with over ten-thousand posts on this website it must be some windmill you use to power that laptop:pac:

Over more than ten years.

Too be honest though for someone who does not know the difference between blanket bog and raised bog to spend so much time on a thread like this you could probably keep the laptops of the country powered on bulls**t and hot air.

As you have been shown to be ignorant on the matter - yes, I wonder why you are posting at all.

Get a life buddy.....or maybe a job:D

Yeah, how could anyone be possible concerned with the protection of the Environment :rolleyes:

Protip: When you are finishing your argument by telling other internet posters that they need to get a life and a job you pretty much have admitted you have run out of argument. Game over really.

MadsL · 02-07-2013 05:40AM

end of the road wrote: »

i'm very informed thank you, and yes i will continue to gladly support those who want to harvest a vitally important cheep source of fuel

It is vitally important you say? How so, are there really houses left in Ireland with no electricity?

Galwayguy35 · 02-07-2013 06:10AM

John_Rambo wrote: »

Stupid post.

Michael, anyone I know that has turbary rights on a bog doesn't pay per bag, do you have turbary rights? Who do you pay?

Do you think the nitelink is free? Another stupid post.

There is the cost of cutting it and the cost of getting it home, this isn't done free of charge just in case you thought it was over there in dubberland.

Galwayguy35 · 02-07-2013 06:16AM

B0jangles wrote: »

I can speak for all the middle-class Dubbalin kids forced by hippy-dippy parents into cutting turf for a summer because it seemed awesome at the time.

No it wasn't. It was astoundingly boring - we spent the whole summer wishing we'd fall into bogholes and thus need to be rescued purely for something to do.

I still hate egg-sammatches and bloody bloody bogholes.

I spent all my summers as a kid working in the bog saviing turf as well, difference was we had to do it because we needed the fuel for the winter, unlike you middle class Dublin kids.

NuckingFacker · 02-07-2013 07:18AM

The last time there was this much fuss over a bog, the Clonsilla Scout Troop got a dose of the trots while camping on Achille.

1 portaloo between 27. Talk about the bog getting blanketed, not to mention lads getting turfed out.

John_Rambo · 02-07-2013 08:30AM

washman3 wrote: »

If you believe for one moment that the Nitelink service is not taxpayer subsidised then you definately have swallowed the entire jar of pills.:(

It's not subsidised washman, that's a fact. You don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Dublin or Europe.

washman3 wrote: »

i'd rather go to Bagdad or Tehran.
its possibly the biggest kip of a capital city in Europe.
i visited Tirana once, a kip, but at least i felt safe there.

If you feel nervous and unsafe in Dublin, one of the safest cities in the world, you need to get out more, visit more of your own country and the world.

In fact, you're lack of knowledge about Ireland, it's habitats and wildlife is shocking, your posts show ignorance and a massive lack of education when it comes to your own country.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

There is the cost of cutting it and the cost of getting it home, this isn't done free of charge just in case you thought it was over there in dubberland.

The product is free. If you have to use a contractor to do the dirty work, that's your problem.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

needed the fuel for the winter, unlike you middle class Dublin kids.

Are you that fooslish you don't think Dublin homes need fuel?

Dissident turfcutters

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