Dissident turfcutters

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 01-07-2013 12:40PM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

No it wouldn't. Same damage being done - a significant proportion of which is done at the drainage stage.

The 'traditional practice' argument is often used - but using big JCBs and similar machinery isn't traditional, so the traditional argument is hugely flawed.

all the damage is done at that stage. Its only the bogs that are still very wet that are being protected. If it has been drained, then its destroyed.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 12:41PM

Aaliyah Rough Footlocker wrote: »

all the damage is done at that stage. Its only the bogs that are still very wet that are being protected. If it has been drained, then its destroyed.

Yeah thats pretty much it - akin to draining all of the blood out of a patient.

markpb · 01-07-2013 12:59PM

Stinicker wrote: »

It just shows how much the Government in Dublin is so detached from rural life in Ireland.

This seems like the standard response in Ireland: if the government make a decision I disagree with, it must be because they're from another county/a city/the EU and therefore don't understand how hard my life is. Of the 166 TDs, 122 are not from Dublin. Of the 14 ministers, 10 are not from Dublin. The majority of those TDs come to Dublin 2-3 days a week and then go home. How anyone can claim, with a straight face, that the government is Dublin centric is beyond me.

Ironically, based on your post, if anyone is detached from rural life in Ireland, it's you.

Stinicker wrote: »

i own bogland but do not cut it but should I choose to cut it then by god no-one will stop me from doing so. I am currently abroad and reading sh1t like this happening back home really grinds my gears.

Ownership does not confer rights - you always have to obey the law of the land. I own a car but I'm not allowed to drive it at 120kph through villages. I own my house but I'm only allowed burn clean coal. Boo frickin hoo.

joela · 01-07-2013 03:33PM

Just a quick point, most of the bogs are not privately owned. The norm is that the cutters have 'turbary' on the bogs. many of the protected bogs are state owned or partially state owned or commonage. Many people cutting don't even hold title for the turbary and some just cut unclaimed plots. The people who do own the bogs they cut will still own the bogs they cut and also get either compo or alternative bog or turf delivery. So all this business about private property is another bit of turf smoke.

MadsL · 01-07-2013 04:21PM

Neddyusa wrote: »

Hello.

You have repeatedly stated that Bord na Mona does not harvest peat from raised bogs. That is completely WRONG. BNM ONLY cut raised bogs.

Then tell me on which of the active 53 raised bog Natura 2000 sites Bord na Mona are actively cutting turf? Please, I'd love to know. A linky would be handy.

It would appear that you do not know the difference between raised and blanket bogs and yet try to appear informed by quoting articles from IPCC an international quango.

And you appear to not know the difference between a bog and an protected bog. Yet you constantly conflagrate the two.

Let me guess. You do not drive a car? Use electricity? All generated by imported FOSSIL fuels which casue habitat destruction in their harvest and processing.

Let me guess, you are making assumptions, a significant proportion of the electricity I used to use in Ireland was wind generated. But all of this is a strawman; the purpose of bog protection is to protect the HABITAT not prevent the use of a fossil fuel. Although given climate change tearing up and burning naturally occurring carbon sinks is as close to madness as I can see.

Bet you'd love it if your car was taken from you because the petrol you burned in it was causing destruction of habitats in the shale oil fields of Canada.

Strawman argument.

Go and work a week in the bog before you hypocritically criticise Irish people for harvesting their own fuel LOCALLY creating local employment and reducing oil imports........all the while you go about your daily life burning IMPORTED fossil fuels that you have no idea where they come from.

Footin' a bit o'turf is it? Sweating in the fields etc etc (hark! is that a tin whistle) sorry, it was drowned out by the sound of the JCB and your self-righteous babble.

But ignorance is bliss in this case for you becasue it seems that using such fuel is fine just becasue its not on RTE news or covered by the EU habitats directive.

You are attacking the production of modern clean electricity sources? Wow, perhaps we should start harvesting whales again for lamp oil, y'know locally - creating local employment and all.

]BTW go back to your first year geography teacher and find out what the diference between a raised bog and a blanket bog is before commenting further.:)

I have posted and linked the difference. The vast majority of SAC sites/Natura 2000 sites under protection are active raised bog.

Raised Bogs
Ireland has a particular responsibility for protecting raised bog habitat as we have a significant proportion of the small surviving remnants of raised bog within Europe. 139 raised bogs have been designated for protection in 53 Raised Bog Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) under the Habitats Directive and 75 Natural Heritage Areas (NHAs) under the Wildlife (Amendment) Act, 2000. source

53 Raised Bog Special Areas of Conservation

75 Raised Bog Natural Heritage Areas

end of the road · 01-07-2013 04:54PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

People use to throw their sh1t out a window into the middle of the street for generations. Yet we don't do that anymore.

what has that got to do with somebody cutting turf on their land? nothing, and throwing s//t out on to the street is a public health issue and can cause disease, cutting turf harms nobody

Jester252 · 01-07-2013 04:57PM

end of the road wrote: »

what has that got to do with somebody cutting turf on their land? nothing, and throwing s//t out on to the street is a public health issue and can cause disease, cutting turf harms nobody

Apart from the tax payers that have to pay the fines

MadsL · 01-07-2013 04:59PM

end of the road wrote: »

what has that got to do with somebody cutting turf on their land? nothing, and throwing s//t out on to the street is a public health issue and can cause disease, cutting turf harms nobody

Leaving aside the protection of the natural habitat, cutting turf is a double whammy environmentally speaking. Firstly burning the turn releases high levels of CO2, a greenhouse gas, then you have removed the bog which left alone would absorb CO2 converting it to O2 mitigating the greenhouse effect.

Burning bogs is about the most environmentally damaging fossil fuel going.

Mr.David · 01-07-2013 05:12PM

end of the road wrote: »

cutting turf harms nobody

harms nobody.....apart from everybody....

washman3 · 01-07-2013 05:23PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

People use to throw their sh1t out a window into the middle of the street for generations. Yet we don't do that anymore.

The 'bleedin corporation' take it away for free for you now..;)
Again while somebody else pays.!!

John_Rambo · 01-07-2013 05:59PM

washman3 wrote: »

The 'bleedin corporation' take it away for free for you now..;)
Again while somebody else pays.!!

If you're under some sort of illusion that you pay for cities sewerage treatment you should put that to bed washman. The cities pay for themselves and furthermore, they subsidise the rural parts of the country. Lets hope the freeloaders take their poxy compo from the taxpayer and stop ripping up the protected bogs for free fuel.

mf240 · 01-07-2013 06:10PM

I killed a family of hedgehogs on the way to collect my new wood pellet boiler. Oh the irony.

Only messing I have a huge shed of turf. So no hedgehogs were harmed.

MadsL · 01-07-2013 06:17PM

mf240 wrote: »

I killed a family of hedgehogs on the way to collect my new wood pellet boiler. Oh the irony.

Only messing I have a huge shed of turf. So no hedgehogs were harmed.

Perhaps you should build a bridge out of the turf? Y'know for lurking purposes.

end of the road · 01-07-2013 06:18PM

John_Rambo wrote: »

Lets hope the freeloaders take their poxy compo from the taxpayer and stop ripping up the protected bogs for free fuel.

why should they? their ancestors faught for 800 years for that land and if they want to rip it up for free fuel then good for them
the tax payer is giving them pittence instead of giving them a life time supply of turf which would be money well spent for those wanting to protect the bogs, so call for that to happen and then we can talk, just because you can't get free fuel doesn't mean those who can should give it up

B0jangles · 01-07-2013 06:24PM

My ancestors fought just as hard - in fact my own grandfather fought very fúcking hard in the twenties - where's my bit of irreplaceable land to burn because I'm too stubborn and selfish to accept change?

Sarky · 01-07-2013 06:30PM

Turfcutters were given a decade notice and compensation for giving up what's now a protected ecosystem. They take the money and still break the law by destroying protected ecosystem. And a third of you still think they're the heroes? What is wrong with you?

MadsL · 01-07-2013 06:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

why should they? their ancestors faught for 800 years for that land

Jaysus they must have needed a cup of tay after that!

and if they want to rip it up for free fuel then good for them

Not free though is it? Taxpayers have to pay the fines to the EU.

the tax payer is giving them pittence instead of giving them a life time supply of turf

€15k is a pittance? Who knew.
Lifetime supply, really? REALLY? :mad:

which would be money well spent for those wanting to protect the bogs,

Or we could pay them nothing. And arrest them for breaking the law, so €15k or arrested. Choose.

so call for that to happen and then we can talk, just because you can't get free fuel doesn't mean those who can should give it up

As I said above, it ain't free anymore. But you want someone else to pay.

Capercaille · 01-07-2013 06:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

what has that got to do with somebody cutting turf on their land? nothing, and throwing s//t out on to the street is a public health issue and can cause disease, cutting turf harms nobody

Say that to the threatened bird species that inhabit Irish Bogs that are in endangered with extinction, due to the destruction of the bogs by turfcutters and other self interest groups. Irish Red Grouse, Hen Harrier, Golden Plover (breeding), Dunlin (breeding), Curlew (breeding).....

B0jangles · 01-07-2013 06:37PM

^^^ Nice username/post combo there

^^^

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 06:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

why should they? their ancestors faught for 800 years for that land and if they want to rip it up for free fuel then good for them
the tax payer is giving them pittence instead of giving them a life time supply of turf which would be money well spent for those wanting to protect the bogs, so call for that to happen and then we can talk, just because you can't get free fuel doesn't mean those who can should give it up

Ah yes who can forget the bog wars that those indigenous people fought for...oh wait there was no bog wars and their ancestors are the same as most of our ancestors!

The tax payer is not giving them pittence - if you'll look into it you'll see that its a very generous offer - although I will concede that they're right to seek clarification on the exact length of time the compensation will be paid for. When a friend of mine saw the letter his dad got regarding compensation to stop cutting turf, he told him he should take it in a second that its such a good offer!

As has been said above, we're talking about the greater good of the population - thats how society works and improves!

But good for you using your uninformed opinion to champion the 'underdog'!

Precious flower · 01-07-2013 06:47PM

Tradition? Makes me laugh. Don't you think preserving the habitat for future generations to see makes more sense? People cut turf hundreds of years ago to heat their houses and cook their food so they could survive. We have many different alternatives now that can be used instead. If your forefathers 'died for this land' than why not try to protect it instead of ruining it. And by the way, your forefathers did not die so you could cut turf. :rolleyes: Really no one, not even Bord na Mona should be allowed touch the bogs, it's an outdated fuel. But of course people won't regret destroying forests, bogs whatever until all of it is gone. People don't do anything about anything until it is already too late. The environment will be torn to bits before anyone says 'Hey maybe this isn't such a good idea'. This nonsense of 'But what will the farmers do?' Go heat your house with something else, like everyone else has to, it's not the end of the world. (Granted in an ideal world we would be heating our houses with renewable energy).

MadsL · 01-07-2013 06:51PM

Precious flower wrote: »

(Granted in an ideal world we would be heating our houses with renewable energy).

A lot of people already are!

Renewable energy accounted for 41% of indigenous energy production in 2011.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Renewable_Energy_in_Ireland_2011.pdf

MadsL · 01-07-2013 06:59PM

Here's a good example of the kind of doublethink from the more vocal protesters.
So even having been paid compensation, people still go out and cut, and this apparantly is an example of how bad the Govt is!? You couldn't make it up.

One such example of a bog where more turf was cut is Moanveanlough in County Kerry. This bog happens to be in the neighbourhood of Minister Jimmy Deenihan. The curious thing for turf cutters in this and many other areas is how so many have apparently taken compensation yet at the same time so many are still cutting turf. Moanveanlough bog is a good example of this. Even though more people cut turf in 2012 than in 2011, 27 are still recorded as having applied for compensation. So either the department are paying people who do not satisfy the criteria of the scheme or they are massaging the figured to make the compensation scheme appear more successful than it actually is.

http://www.turfcuttersandcontractors.com/

Hondo75 · 01-07-2013 07:12PM

The guys out in lullymore do amazing work promoting the bogs

Bog passport coming soon:D

http://ien.ie/2013/peatland-educators-to-meet-in-the-bog-of-allen-and-launch-peatland-passport/

http://www.ipcc.ie/discover-and-learn/ipccs-peatland-nature-reserves/lullymore-west-bog-co-kildare-visitor-map-guide/

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."

Ancient Indian Proverb

washman3 · 01-07-2013 07:50PM

John_Rambo wrote: »

If you're under some sort of illusion that you pay for cities sewerage treatment you should put that to bed washman. The cities pay for themselves and furthermore, they subsidise the rural parts of the country. Lets hope the freeloaders take their poxy compo from the taxpayer and stop ripping up the protected bogs for free fuel.

Just like the 'freeloaders' pay for the Boozebus (nitelink) to get you home from the pub.:D

MadsL · 01-07-2013 07:52PM

washman3 wrote: »

Just like the 'freeloaders' pay for the Boozebus (nitelink) to get you home from the pub.:D

Got any more irrelevant guff to throw into this thread? Like how you have to pay for batteries for your torch but them jackeens get them free streetlighting yokes.

dirtyden · 01-07-2013 08:14PM

My brother in law's family have a bit of bog. I assume it is not raised bog as they have not had any issues as yet. Dirty, sweaty but very satisfying day out to be had cutting or footing turf. We always did it the old fashioned way, only modern equipment was the car to pull the trailer home.

But on the subject of the thread, without much initial knowledge I would have been on the side of the landowners/turfcutters, but with mature reflection and a little background reading it really would be a shame to lose this unique habitat. We have lost much of what was unique about the Flora and Fauna of this country and we should do our utmost to preserve what we can.

Grayson · 01-07-2013 08:14PM

mickdw wrote: »

We cut turf here but are still legally allowed to do so here. It is an age old tradition and I can see no valid reason for it needing to be stopped.
I do however see that the hopper and associated machinery is very destructive as they basically dig up large portions of the bog destroying surface habitats etc.
Why not therefore allow traditional methods of hand turf cutting?

Bog is a finite resource. It does not replenish. Well, not for a hundred thousand years. And even then only if the land is left alone. The simple fact is that well over 90% of our bogs have been destroyed. Hand cutting would do just as much damage as machine cutting, just it would take longer.

As for the traditional argument, Iceland has currently renewed whale hunting because it's "traditional". Tell you what, if you want to live in a traditional house, with no insulation, windows or even a chimney, then I'm ok with you keeping up a destructive tradition. Whilst you're at it, you can dump the medical care you get and stop using roads.

For the people who say BnM still does it why can't we? That's a dumb argument. BnM are idiots too and what they're doing is wrong.

end of the road wrote: »

LOL, sounds like we have an extremist among us, its only a f//king bog, get over it, cut away lads its your land, to arrest them and convict them would cost to much, once we set cab on them they will have nothing so will have to cut even more turf, heres an idea, how about those who want the bogs protected so badly club together and buy them, 1000000 per bog should suffice for the owners and allow them to have enough money to keep going for probably the rest of their life.

So, you're opinion is that we should pay people who broke the law? Should we do the same with drug dealers? Pay them an extortionate amount to give us their drugs? Of course not, you're just making a stupid argument because you can't come up with anything better.

As for my opinion of the Personally I hate these stupid, gombeen feckers who think they're being put upon. Stick one in a suit and put him in a bank and you get David Drumm. They couldn't give a fcuk about the future and are just selfish feckers who are all "Me, Me, Me". They're the kind of people who would invest in eircom and then demand money from the government to recuperate losses. They're the kind of people who will invest a ridiculous amount in property and then expect the government to pay their debts. They're the small minded, short sighted, selfish little sh1ts who hold this country back and are responsible for it's problems. I say they should all be fined and if persistent they should be locked up.

MadsL · 01-07-2013 08:21PM

Grayson wrote: »

As for my opinion of the Personally I hate these stupid, gombeen feckers who think they're being put upon. Stick one in a suit and put him in a bank and you get David Drumm. They couldn't give a fcuk about the future and are just selfish feckers who are all "Me, Me, Me". They're the kind of people who would invest in eircom and then demand money from the government to recuperate losses. They're the kind of people who will invest a ridiculous amount in property and then expect the government to pay their debts. They're the small minded, short sighted, selfish little sh1ts who hold this country back and are responsible for it's problems. I say they should all be fined and if persistent they should be locked up.

^ This.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcb2suvtqd1qagc1ao1_500.gif

M three · 01-07-2013 08:29PM

The government present or any past couldnt give two hoots about the environment.
The end game here is to drive landowners out so they can stick up turbines to serve the english energy market. Not the irish energy market. because england dont want the turbines anywhere near them. Go figure.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/opposition-mounts-to-building-of-wind-farms-in-midlands-1.1352942

"The proposals to build 2,300 wind turbines in the midlands to serve the UK market is already proving to be contentious even before a single one is erected."

So what do the misinformed who support the ban on turfcutting think of that? How good are 185m high turbines going to be for the habitat ye bleat on about?

Dissident turfcutters

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