Dissident turfcutters

MadsL · 01-07-2013 01:08AM

washman3 wrote: »

One owner told me a while back that he would make more cash if he sold his machine as scrap metal, so small is the margin of profit.

Ask him then why he doesn't. But then perhaps you believe everything the fella in the small rural community providing a service tells you about what he is making on the money he is paid by his rural neighbours. "Ah, sure, I barely get by".

washman3 · 01-07-2013 01:16AM

MadsL wrote: »

Ask him then why he doesn't. But then perhaps you believe everything the fella in the small rural community providing a service tells you about what he is making on the money he is paid by his rural neighbours. "Ah, sure, I barely get by".

Yes i believe him. he lives in a modest house and drives a 14 year old 4x4.
has a wife and kids and when his machine breaks down for 1,2 or 3 days he gets sweet FA. when he rings in sick nobody answersthe phone and there is no gold-plated/index linked pension paid for by somebody else that he can avail of.;)

MadsL · 01-07-2013 01:20AM

washman3 wrote: »

Yes i believe him. he lives in a modest house and drives a 14 year old 4x4.
has a wife and kids and when his machine breaks down for 1,2 or 3 days he gets sweet FA. when he rings in sick nobody answersthe phone and there is no gold-plated/index linked pension paid for by somebody else that he can avail of.;)

Then why would he not sell the machine for scrap?

As for the rest, he has had 10+ years to see this coming and get into another business. Why should the State subsidise that level of stupidity? What next, subsidies for video player repairmen?

endacl · 01-07-2013 01:20AM

washman3 wrote: »

Yes i believe him. he lives in a modest house and drives a 14 year old 4x4.
has a wife and kids and when his machine breaks down for 1,2 or 3 days he gets sweet FA. when he rings in sick nobody answersthe phone and there is no gold-plated/index linked pension paid for by somebody else that he can avail of.;)

Bummer.

mickdw · 01-07-2013 01:20AM

MadsL wrote: »

Yet.

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/raised-bogs/

64% of habitat wiped out by man with spade. It must be a serious tool. Next time I pick a up a spade I will have to be alot more careful. Never knew what they were capable of.
I've been educated here tonight and have now changed my opinion. If the hand cutter is so destructive, might as well just go with the heavy machinery and save the extra work.

MadsL · 01-07-2013 01:22AM

mickdw wrote: »

64% of habitat wiped out by man with spade. It must be a serious tool. Next time I pick a shape, I will have to be alt more careful. Never knew what they were capable of.
I've been educated here tonight and have now changed my opinion. If the hand cutter is so destructive, might as well just go with the heavy machinery and save the extra work.

Yeah, funny that, given all the guff by Ming and the rest about a poor few auld lads footin' a bit o'turf.

I'd say that spade is often JCB shaped.

Zillah · 01-07-2013 01:40AM

mickdw wrote: »

64% of habitat wiped out by man with spade. It must be a serious tool. Next time I pick a up a spade I will have to be alot more careful. Never knew what they were capable of.
I've been educated here tonight and have now changed my opinion. If the hand cutter is so destructive, might as well just go with the heavy machinery and save the extra work.

I think he meant a lot of spades rather than just one. Though I suspect you might have known that. It's almost like you don't really care what the facts are!

Rasheed · 01-07-2013 06:45AM

MadsL wrote: »

Ten years to save and even residential grants available from Sustainable Energy Ireland for Irish residents. For a typical system installation, €800 of grant aid for a wood-pellet stove, €1,400 of grant aid for a stove with integral backboiler, or €2,500 for Biotech wood pellet boilers which will heat your entire house.

So in those ten years, why haven't the governments sorted out the compensation package/ offer of a legal bog? There are still many in limbo, afraid to cut on their own bog, no compensation to buy turf, oil or other fuel sources, no offer of a replacement bog and no offer of turf delivery? Just sitting there, no word from anyone and winter isn't that for off (With many days between now and winter needing heat). What would you advise then to do?

Grants are great (if you are eligible) but fitting a wood pellet stove and boiler is still expensive, even excluding installation fees which the grant wouldn't cover. That isn't even considering that your home is suitable for a wood pellet stove/ boiler, that you have place for them and a suitable area to store the wood pellets. They're not without their own share of problem and are expensive to fix. And those wood pellet stoves and boilers aren't the more attractive.

MadsL · 01-07-2013 07:02AM

Rasheed wrote: »

So in those ten years, why haven't the governments sorted out the compensation package/ offer of a legal bog? There are still many in limbo, afraid to cut on their own bog, no compensation to buy turf, oil or other fuel sources, no offer of a replacement bog and no offer of turf delivery? Just sitting there, no word from anyone and winter isn't that for off (With many days between now and winter needing heat). What would you advise then to do?

I think you are confusing the fact that a 10 year derogation was in force until May 2010, the then Government announced the agreed compensation was finalised in April 2011. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0413/299831-turf/

However there has always been a facility for landowners to be compensated:

A landowner may seek compensation for actual losses incurred as a result of having land included in a NHA, candidate SAC or SPA. Eligible landowners should submit to the Department, details of the losses incurred as a result of the inclusion of lands in a NHA, SAC or SPA, outlining the basis for the calculations. Documentary evidence of past earnings and the activities that produced these should be included with the claim. Should the applicant be dissatisfied with a compensation that is made, the case may be referred to an independent arbitrator who will review the matter and make a final decision.

http://www.npws.ie/farmerslandowners/schemes/otherformsofcompensation/

All this talk of limbo is frankly a nonsense.

Fine Gael TD for Roscommon/South Leitrim, Frank Feighan, has revealed that to date €3.25m has been paid out in compensation to turfcutters

http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=161720

Some 2,008 turf cutters have received annual payments of €1,500 each and 180 turf deliveries which have been made to applicants at a total cost of €3,282,232.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/over-3m-paid-out-to-turfcutters-affected-by-eu-habitat-restrictions-1.2171

Grants are great (if you are eligible) but fitting a wood pellet stove and boiler is still expensive, even excluding installation fees which the grant wouldn't cover. That isn't even considering that your home is suitable for a wood pellet stove/ boiler, that you have place for them and a suitable area to store the wood pellets. They're not without their own share of problem and are expensive to fix. And those wood pellet stoves and boilers aren't the more attractive.

That's just one option, however you would have thought it not unreasonable that someone with 10 years notice would have sorted this out by now.

osarusan · 01-07-2013 07:11AM

MadsL wrote: »

I'd say that spade is often JCB shaped.

So the 64% loss caused by hand peat cutting actually includes machine cutting?

MadsL · 01-07-2013 07:15AM

osarusan wrote: »

So the 64% loss caused by hand peat cutting actually includes machine cutting?

Read my link above and come back to me on what you think it means.

Here's a picture.

http://91.216.241.2/~ipccie/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/raisedutilisationchart.jpg

MadsL · 01-07-2013 10:30AM

OVER half of the country's protected bogs have been cut this year, according to protesters who took part in a stand-off with gardai over the weekend

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/protesters-say-half-of-protected-bogs-being-cut-29384926.html

So take the money and still cut the bogs. No honour in these people.

Seedy Arling · 01-07-2013 10:35AM

Anecdotally i heard there was over 30 gardai in Monivea to try and stop whatever was going on out there. Regardless of whether cutting turf is right or wrong in these areas, it seemed a highly excessive, costly response from the gardai.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 10:56AM

Seedy Arling wrote: »

Anecdotally i heard there was over 30 gardai in Monivea to try and stop whatever was going on out there. Regardless of whether cutting turf is right or wrong in these areas, it seemed a highly excessive, costly response from the gardai.

You obviosly havn't seen the amount in fines per day the country will be liable for because of continued turcutting on the protected bogs!

Neddyusa · 01-07-2013 10:56AM

MadsL wrote: »

Yet.

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/raised-bogs/

Hello.

You have repeatedly stated that Bord na Mona does not harvest peat from raised bogs. That is completely WRONG. BNM ONLY cut raised bogs.

It would appear that you do not know the difference between raised and blanket bogs and yet try to appear informed by quoting articles from IPCC an international quango.

Let me guess. You do not drive a car? Use electricity? All generated by imported FOSSIL fuels which casue habitat destruction in their harvest and processing.

Bet you'd love it if your car was taken from you because the petrol you burned in it was causing destruction of habitats in the shale oil fields of Canada.

Go and work a week in the bog before you hypocritically criticise Irish people for harvesting their own fuel LOCALLY creating local employment and reducing oil imports........all the while you go about your daily life burning IMPORTED fossil fuels that you have no idea where they come from.

But ignorance is bliss in this case for you becasue it seems that using such fuel is fine just becasue its not on RTE news or covered by the EU habitats directive.

BTW go back to your first year geography teacher and find out what the diference between a raised bog and a blanket bog is before commenting further.:)

norrie rugger · 01-07-2013 10:58AM

It would be grand if the government had not burned millions of hectares of turf, in the past few decades.

Seedy Arling · 01-07-2013 11:02AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

You obviosly havn't seen the amount in fines per day the country will be liable for because of continued turcutting on the protected bogs!

No, you're right, i havent!

I suppose in a way the cops were right as well, land/rights to work land is such a divisive thing in Irish farming society, things have often turned murderous. And that's a fact!

Families have been destroyed about squabbles over inheriting land etc, I don't see this situation as being much different. I also think this may be a reason why people who are not from a country back ground may not understand the big fuss.

Still, it'll be interesting to see how things pan out.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 11:02AM

norrie rugger wrote: »

It would be grand if the government had not burned millions of hectares of turf, in the past few decades.

No it wouldn't. Bord na Mona has handed back bogs in protected areas and in the coming years will cease peat harvesting altogether. The "ah sure most of the bogs have been destroyed, we might as well keep going and get rid of the last of them" argument is pretty flawed - we should be thankful that something is being done before its too late.

LeinsterDub · 01-07-2013 11:16AM

Sirfartsalot wrote: »

The EU directive does set a new precedence in Irish bulls.hitery.

Preventing people whose families have used this source of fuel for generations is just nonsense.

People use to throw their sh1t out a window into the middle of the street for generations. Yet we don't do that anymore.

norrie rugger · 01-07-2013 11:24AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

No it wouldn't. Bord na Mona has handed back bogs in protected areas and in the coming years will cease peat harvesting altogether. The "ah sure most of the bogs have been destroyed, we might as well keep going and get rid of the last of them" argument is pretty flawed - we should be thankful that something is being done before its too late.

It is flawed only in that the government has burned and continues to burn turf and now, only that it is becoming commercially unviable to continue, are they interested in conservation.
I believe that these bogs are privately owned? Why not take the unprotected bogs from government ownership and hand it to the cutters, in place of their private land (plus compensation for extra distance from their own bog)

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 11:36AM

Seedy Arling wrote: »

No, you're right, i havent!

I suppose in a way the cops were right as well, land/rights to work land is such a divisive thing in Irish farming society, things have often turned murderous. And that's a fact!

Families have been destroyed about squabbles over inheriting land etc, I don't see this situation as being much different. I also think this may be a reason why people who are not from a country back ground may not understand the big fuss.

Still, it'll be interesting to see how things pan out.

Suffice it to say that it makes a lot of sense to invest money in the gardai and NPWS sorting this out now rather than to let it go on for a few more years!

But one of the reasons the Gardai were there is that NPWS Rangers have been threatened with violence and death by the illegal turfcutters, and have had their personal details etc leaked as a form of intimidation, all over this. So the Gardai are at least partly there for the protection of the Rangers.

Seedy Arling · 01-07-2013 11:38AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Suffice it to say that it makes a lot of sense to invest money in the gardai and NPWS sorting this out now rather than to let it go on for a few more years!

But one of the reasons the Gardai were there is that NPWS Rangers have been threatened with violence and death by the illegal turfcutters, and have had their personal details etc leaked as a form of intimidation, all over this. So the Gardai are at least partly there for the protection of the Rangers.

Yeah, that stands to reason and goes back to my point that it is a very emotive issue. It's a mindset that will be very hard to change straight away.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 11:38AM

norrie rugger wrote: »

It is flawed only in that the government has burned and continues to burn turf and now, only that it is becoming commercially unviable to continue, are they interested in conservation.
I believe that these bogs are privately owned? Why not take the unprotected bogs from government ownership and hand it to the cutters, in place of their private land (plus compensation for extra distance from their own bog)

Don't forget the majority of private bogs can still be cut - the bogs that are protected have been chosen on an independant, scientifically verified basis.

And lets not also forget that turfcutters elsewhere in Europe aren't allowed cut on SACs anymore either - but they weren't given compensation. While I support the idea of compensating the turfcutters, whats already on offer is sufficient if not generous. And one of the options for compensation is relocation to an unprotected bog so that can be cut - again emphasising that the issue is about protecting important habitats, nothing to do with anti-rural or anti-turfcutting. (not that you've said that, but others have)

Oh, and a lot of former Bord na Mona bogs are being handed over for conservation and are being restored and managed.

markpb · 01-07-2013 11:43AM

Seedy Arling wrote: »

it is a very emotive issue. It's a mindset that will be very hard to change straight away.

So was the dominance of the Catholic Church, the smoking ban and the household charge/property tax. Things change, people move on. Sometimes it happens easily, sometimes it takes some coercion.

Seedy Arling · 01-07-2013 11:50AM

markpb wrote: »

So was the dominance of the Catholic Church, the smoking ban and the household charge/property tax. Things change, people move on. Sometimes it happens easily, sometimes it takes some coercion.

True, true. With these places the traditional ethos is very entrenched. Real dancing at the crossroads type stuff.

Stinicker · 01-07-2013 11:57AM

It just shows how much the Government in Dublin is so detached from rural life in Ireland. The EU should be told to get stuffed and we Irish will do what we want with the land our forefathers fought and died for. This is no different to the days of British rule and it is no surprise to see that this was implemented back in 1999 by the Fianna Fail traitor government. People can do what the want on their private property and this is fundamental to the Irish way of life especially in rural Ireland where men spilled blood for 800 years to keep their land.

I own bogland but do not cut it but should I choose to cut it then by god no-one will stop me from doing so. I am currently abroad and reading sh1t like this happening back home really grinds my gears.

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 12:04PM

Stinicker wrote: »

It just shows how much the Government in Dublin is so detached from rural life in Ireland. The EU should be told to get stuffed and we Irish will do what we want with the land our forefathers fought and died for. This is no different to the days of British rule and it is no surprise to see that this was implemented back in 1999 by the Fianna Fail traitor government. People can do what the want on their private property and this is fundamental to the Irish way of life especially in rural Ireland where men spilled blood for 800 years to keep their land.

I own bogland but do not cut it but should I choose to cut it then by god no-one will stop me from doing so. I am currently abroad and reading sh1t like this happening back home really grinds my gears.

No it doesn't, it shows how difficult it can be to get people to change their destructive habits because they have become tradition, despite it being in the best interest of the country as a whole.

People can't do what they want on their private propery - try and build a skyscraper on your land, or open a dump, or kill someone - I think you'll find that the best interests of the population take precedent over what you want to do on your land, and thats as it should be!

To suggest that our forefathers fought for this kind of thing is fairly inaccurate too - I have enough respect for them to think that if they could see the benefits of preserving the bogs that we now know, and with turfcutters on this small number of bogs being adequately compensated to give up or to relocate for turfcutting, that they'd realise fairly quickly that its a deal which works out well for pretty much everyone.

To compare this issue with the struggles of Irish people under British rule for hundreds of years shows either a misunderstanding, misinterpretation or perhaps disrespect for our national history.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 01-07-2013 12:13PM

MadsL wrote: »

Those are a different type of bog. It is raised not blanket bogs that are protected.

Bord na mona harvest blanket bog

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 01-07-2013 12:27PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Yes, because they've been using these enormous machines in the same bogs for generations also, right? Look at the massive machines in this RTÉ clip from today's news. Can anybody honestly say this is an ancient Irish tradition in practice?

I dont see your point about the big machines. so if everyone went back to using a slane it would be ok?

OpenYourEyes · 01-07-2013 12:29PM

Aaliyah Rough Footlocker wrote: »

I dont see your point about the big machines. so if everyone went back to using a slane it would be ok?

No it wouldn't. Same damage being done - a significant proportion of which is done at the drainage stage.

The 'traditional practice' argument is often used - but using big JCBs and similar machinery isn't traditional, so the argument that turfcutting should be allowed on SAC's because its a traditional practice is hugely flawed.

Dissident turfcutters

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