Season 3 Episode 9: Have NOT read the books/BEWARE SPOILERS MOD NOTE POST #1

Hijpo wrote: »

Where does this leave the manly female that took orders from cat? Were her dealings with the storyline done when jamie was released? Are they done now that the woman she swore to serve is gone?

She failed again!

Kidding aside, her oath always left her free to avenge Renly. That would be easiest to achieve if she were to stay with Jamie - be his right hand man...boom boom...here all week people!

Martin made sure to visit some level of hell on the Starks. I have to imagine that Arya's scenes with Tywin (which were not in the book from what's been said) were foreshadowing to her eventually killing him.

I don't think the turn was a massive surprise - even the Boltons' chess piece on the war map in the first scene seemed to indicate bad things would happen - but the brutality of it was. I'm surprised people are so wildly shocked by the turn because, really, that knife has been gleaming for quite some time. It certainly isn't one that feels cheap or unsupported by the plot.

It all makes perfect sense, too, because to Tywin's mind (or Bolton's, whoever is the mastermind) he's both eliminated his only remaining major threat and he's made Sansa Stark infinitely more valuable to the Lannisters.

Very enjoyable episode but that Theon is still strapped to a wooden cross a full season after the 'blackout' is perhaps the most ridiculous piece of pacing I've seen in the history of television.

Precious flower wrote: »

Is it bad when you feel more emotion when one direwolve is shot then when a load of main characters are slaughtered?:o I WANT A DIREWOLF!:(

Seen this on reddit earlier, not far from one is it?



Also, this thread has over 22k views. :eek:

Ok well, honestly? Yeah I saw this coming. Only I thought the Lannisters would be there in force. Stannis naming him in the curse sealed his fate as far as I could see.

I don't really get why Stannis named him though. Robb was fighting for the North only which doesn't make him a usurper, was Stannis that concerned about getting the whole kingdom or was it because Robb backed Renly? Honestly, Stannis doesn't seem the brightest spark because the Lannisters are the one's in his way, not the Starks, harming the Starks weakens his own position which is weak enough as is. One witch army pretty much. I thought the Balon Greyjoy naming was odd also, has he even expressed a want for the throne?

Robb was a good character but I don't really care that much about anyone else killed there (maybe the wolves). Good on Catelyn anyway, keeping to her word. Last words from Robb would've been nice.

So the Starks; Jon breaking his oath to the watch and Ygritte puts him in a strange position although I'm secretly happy because Ygritte irritates me a little. Is he his own man now? Reckon he is also lined up for death in the next season or after. Wonder how much influence he can have before then.
Arya is definitely going to manifest the Stark's revenge. She's a bit like a cool Sasuke now. Her story is going to get dark and she is going to toe the line of evil.
Bran looks to be the future of the Stark house. Calm, intelligent, brave and super rare psychic powers. Not filled with hatred like the girls.
Dumb redhead, who f*cking cares?
Youngest brother, also not enough character development for anyone to care yet.

I still think the best part of this ep was Arya clocking the pig farmer and the Hound's face.

Agricola wrote: »

Have to say I agree with a lot of other posters in that I find Martin's complete indifference to long standing characters and audience favorites annoying. The deaths are just so brutal and tasteless with no sugar coating for the viewer. Ive been watching this since S1ep1 and its like one long, relentless nightmare for the "good" characters. Im just hoping that the man lets all these wrongs be righted in big style down the road.

Unfortunately life has no sugar coating. GOT is based on a time where people killed each other senselessly with knives and swords. Life was cheap. The lords ruled, the peasants toiled. The law was whoever held power.

Think about King Henry 8th, he had his wives heads chopped off simply because he could. And they were all high born ladies. Look at the witch trails of old, thousands of women killed horribly because a local sheep died, the weather was bad and the woman in question had a birthmark.

How many wars were there over kingdoms, fiefdoms, lordships, or religions?

GRRM is simply telling a tale using some historical knowledge. The TV series is showing how brutal things can get. Murder isnt pretty. There is no honour, or glory, in getting shot 15 times.

As the producers said, if you watch Spiderman, you expect him to live. The is no guarantee of life in GOT.

And that is what makes it special. The stakes are high. Your favourite might be next.

Its not a "Game", the "good" might not win, the "bad" arent necessarily "bad", and we the audience are not going to be happy with everything that happens along the way. But isnt that just the way life is?

Catelyn was killed because she killed Frey's wife at least

Penn wrote: »

I don't mind them killing off Robb and his missus. Serves the story well, and Robb was good as a leader but was clearly no King.

Killing Catelyn though, she's a bigger loss to the show in my opinion. She was a much better character and even after she was hit with arrows, I presumed they'd keep her as a prisoner. Slitting her throat was the most brutal part of the whole thing, even more so than stabbing Tulisa in the stomach. They'd need to kill the baby for obvious reasons. But killing Catelyn after already killing her son, son's wife and all his men etc... that was just cold.

I wonder what happened to Edmure and the Blackfish. If they killed Edmure, does Walder Frey get Riverrun now?

Cat would be a symbol, a lightening rod to the North and to Riverrun.

Keeping her alive might enflame the masses. Her death was the only "safe" long term option.

Sadism towards imaginary characters? Are you for real?

pixelburp wrote: »

Tbh, there's a legitimate discussion to be had about the fictional... sadism(?) that Martin displays towards his characters, without resorting to dismissive & borderline insulting "go watch soap operas" comments I see here and on other spaces. I think that's not fair on those who didn't see the massacre as a positive.

Yes, real-life/history is brutal and the good guys don't always win yada yada (I've read enough history to recognize that), but GoT isn't real-life, it's a narrative, utterly contrived to spin a fictitious tale of scenes, conflicts & characters. So purely from that mechcanical perspective, I didn't find the Wedding scene to be that narratively useful.

It felt so brutal and arbitrary, like a deliberate shock to the system for no great purpose than to get a reaction. In other words, it felt like Martin was trolling the audience, and like any troll there's a natural negative reaction towards such an obvious emotional baiting. Beyond that response I don't see where the Wedding served a narrative purpose. And if there was one - people talking about Tywin being behind the scheme - it feels obfuscated behind the massacre.

GoT's massacre isn't that original as a base concept either: you look at Shakespeare, where often he wouldn't think twice about killing off most of his cast by the final act. I feel the difference is that at least in his plays, Shakespeare took characters to a natural narrative climax, where the death felt like closure to the events & conflicts experienced to that point. With GoT, it feels like characters are just offed at random intervals for shock value & nothing more. That the death itself was the main point of the scene, not any kind of climax for Robb & co.

I disagree. This wasn't a huge twist. Sure it was brutal and unexpected but there was so much foreshadowing that something bad was going to happen to Robb that it nearly blacked the screen

TBH I thought what was going to happen was the wedding would go off as planned, they'd assault Casterly Rock but get stabbed in the back by the Boltons&Freys and Tywin would already be waiting for them.

That seemed to be what they were hinting at when Cat & Robb had that whole "we'll get trapped with our backs to the sea" conversation.

Robb got out politicked at every step of the war tbf. A great General but a useless dealmaker. Let's make a list:

• Went along with being declared King in the North instead of promising his men to deal with that once the Lannisters were dealt with. Should have backed Stannis the rightful heir as Ned was trying to do
• Married Talisa despite everyone advising him that breaking Walder Frey's agreement would be a terrible thing to do
• Sent Theon to negotiate with Balon Greyjoy not foreseeing how weak Theon is and not understanding the nature of the Iron born
• Kept Jamie in a cage guarded by one or two noobs when he was the most valuable and dangerous prisoner in all of Westeros.
• Executed Rickard Karstark despite everyone telling him it would be better to imprison him
• Not seeing how weak all of the above made him in the eyes of his lieutenants

Robb was the Westoros version of Michael Collins, brilliant militarily but naive and easily fooled politically.

The pen is ultimately mightier than the sword.

Just incase anyone doesn't already know this, stay away from Frankie Boyle's twitter, facebook etc. He is posting short sharp and massive spoilers from all the books. He ruined some major stuff for me the other day (Obviously I removed him from everything since) and I've heard he was doing it again last night/this morning.

pixelburp wrote: »

Tbh, there's a legitimate discussion to be had about the fictional... sadism(?) that Martin displays towards his characters, without resorting to dismissive & borderline insulting "go watch soap operas" comments I see here and on other spaces. I think that's not fair on those who didn't see the massacre as a positive.

Yes, real-life/history is brutal and the good guys don't always win yada yada (I've read enough history to recognize that), but GoT isn't real-life, it's a narrative, utterly contrived to spin a fictitious tale of scenes, conflicts & characters. So purely from that mechcanical perspective, I didn't find the Wedding scene to be that narratively useful.

It felt so brutal and arbitrary, like a deliberate shock to the system for no great purpose than to get a reaction. In other words, it felt like Martin was trolling the audience, and like any troll there's a natural negative reaction towards such an obvious emotional baiting. Beyond that response I don't see where the Wedding served a narrative purpose. And if there was one - people talking about Tywin being behind the scheme - it feels obfuscated behind the massacre.

GoT's massacre isn't that original as a base concept either: you look at Shakespeare, where often he wouldn't think twice about killing off most of his cast by the final act. I feel the difference is that at least in his plays, Shakespeare took characters to a natural narrative climax, where the death felt like closure to the events & conflicts experienced to that point. With GoT, it feels like characters are just offed at random intervals for shock value & nothing more. That the death itself was the main point of the scene, not any kind of climax for Robb & co.

Out of a population of 300 million, there are approximately 14,000 murders in the US per year. That’s a frightening figure. And our modern way of life is vastly safer than medieval times.

Is GRRM being brutal, sadistic, merciless, heartless, callous? Not if he is reflecting human nature, history and modern conflict as we see day to day on the news.

Yes GoT isn't real-life. But would there be a story if King Robert lived until he was 90, the Lannisters and the Starks got together every year for a shin-dig and the white walkers were as harmless as those religious types that knock on your door asking if you want to buy pamphlets?

A story comes from conflict. The characters need to strive to achieve something, else there is no payoff at the end.

And does it need to be brutal? Not necessarily. The Red Wedding could have had a Star Trek OS feel to it. No blood, just a lot of “red shirts” falling down clutching their stomachs. But there would be no payoff there. We, the audience, would feel cheated. Why did Rob and Cat need to die? The whole point of the Red Wedding is to shock. To enflame. To remind us that this is a war. That lives are at stake.

The battle scene at the end of Season 2 was good. But we’ve all seen it before. Random extra’s falling down, flames, swords. We are numb to it. But we aren’t numb to the death of Rob and Cat, to the death of the unborn child. That’s personal.

But why did Rob and Cat need to die? Because its part of the narrative, part of the story. Its true that they, as characters, didn’t have a climax to their story, but we the audience have.

We are now reminded that this story can go anywhere. That our favourite characters can be killed. That each scene with Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Arya, Jorah, is precious. We, the audience, now have fear. We have been sucked in.

The tension has been heightened. We know that we aren’t watching Superman. The good guy doesn’t get saved in the end. In order for our favourites to win, they need to be smart. They need to be tough. They need to risk everything, be lucky and win.

Have people forgotten season 1, episode 1? Where a large, handsome, brave, Knight of the realm, pushed a boy out of a window. Shattered his back and left him for dead. GoT is a tough story. It never goes where you think it is. Consider now, how many people were hoping the bear, in the pit, would tear that brave Knight of the realm in half? After all he pushed a child out a window. If right was right, the bear would be picking on his bones as we type. But no one wanted that to happen. The lines have been blurred. This isn’t Superman.

But why the gore? Without that slap in the face. Without the sudden horror. Without the realisation that this series is taking its characters to the next level, where would we be? Star Trek OS, waiting for the red shirt to fall over, clutching his stomach. While the “hero” gets the girl, whos only function so far was to scream when the big bad laughed evilly in the corner.

No. That’s not what GoT is about.