Ireland regaining competitiveness?

Scofflaw · 30-05-2013 4:48pm #1

Both the troika and the IMD think we're regaining competitiveness:

Ireland has gained three places on the IMD World Competitiveness Ranking Scoreboard, rising to 17th overall.

The annual report, which measures how well countries manage their economies and workforce, ranked Ireland above the United Kingdom (18th), France (28th) and China (21st).

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0530/453677-competitiveness-imd-ireland/

And the EU Commission has this in their latest report:

Structural reforms have improved economic fundamentals. Reforms in the labour and product markets since the start of the programme have contributed to improving competitiveness and re-balancing the external accounts. The loss of competitiveness suffered during the boom years has been erased through a mix of increased productivity, falling prices in key segments of the economy and wage moderation.

Competition policy has been strengthened and water sector reforms have gained momentum. The Competition (Amendment) Act 2012 gave new and enhanced enforcement powers to the Competition Authority, which used them for the first time in February 2013 to resolve a case concerning resale price maintenance practices by a distributor of imported footwear. Water sector reforms were implemented slowly early on in the programme but have gained significant momentum recently, including with the enactment of the interim Water Services Act 2013 in March and operational progress in installing meters for households, which is set to begin in July 2013. The process to transfer operations of water services from local authorities to the national utility Irish Water will continue in the months ahead with the publication of a comprehensive Water Services Bill that will provide a new legal framework for the sector, including the transfer of regulatory powers to the Commission for Energy Regulation. The authorities are also working on the funding model for Irish Water and will consult the Commission on State-aid related issues.

Aside from employment and social inclusion, progress towards achieving Europe 2020 targets is also needed across most other areas. Although Ireland performs better than the EU average on a number of indicators, for example tertiary education attainment, it also falls far short of some of the targets. Progress in reducing greenhouse gas emissions in sectors not covered by the emission trading system (ETS) has been slow and the target is expected to be missed by a wide margin even if all additional measures under policy documents were to be fully implemented. Similarly, the increase in the use of renewable energies has been relatively modest in recent years.

Reforms under the programme are yielding clear and tangible results. The economy is showing signs of a budding broad-based recovery, even though risks and uncertainties remain significant, and the unemployment situation generates social distress. Structural reforms and the restructuring of the banking sector, although incomplete so far, have progressed well and are laying the foundations for more sustainable growth in the future. Strong programme implementation and progress towards fiscal consolidation, together with major new arrangements in Ireland and the euro area (in particular, liquidation of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), the associated conversion of promissory notes into long-term bonds and the OMT announcement by the ECB) have also built up market confidence, thereby reducing yields and enabling Ireland to advance its return to the markets. Significant challenges and imbalances remain, however, including in terms of banks’ asset quality and profitability, private- and public-sector debt, general government budget and unemployment.

Programme implementation is expected to stay strong overall throughout 2013, but it is important to avoid complacency as significant challenges and imbalances remain. The ambitious reforms put in place thus far under the programme have addressed many deeprooted imbalances and strengthened Ireland’s position, thereby improving prospects for a successful programme exit, together with sustainable growth and job creation. Imbalances, risks (internal and external) and vulnerabilities remain, however, and will need to be addressed with determination throughout the duration of the programme and beyond. In particular, further work is required to complete the restructuring of the banking sector, put public finances on a sustainable footing, and reduce unemployment. Programme implementation will be assessed under quarterly missions through end-2013 and it is expected that the authorities will continue to follow the benchmarks set under the revised MoU throughout the period.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/sgp/convergence/programmes/2012_en.htm

The light at the end of the tunnel may not be a bloke with a flamethrower, then.

cordially,
Scofflaw

washman3 · 30-05-2013 4:56pm

Attention all. This is a party political broadcast on behalf of the Fine Gael/Labour government. :P

Scortho · 30-05-2013 5:00pm

Whatever about Ireland being more competitive than the uk or France, how can we be more competitive than china?

Scofflaw · 30-05-2013 5:19pm

Scortho wrote: »

Whatever about Ireland being more competitive than the uk or France, how can we be more competitive than china?

A question of looking at more than low wages. A rough idea of the sort of criteria used:

Economic Performance (79 criteria) - Macro-economic evaluation of the domestic economy: Domestic Economy, International Trade, International Investment, Employment and Prices.
Government Efficiency (70 criteria) - Extent to which government policies are conducive to competitiveness: Public Finance, Fiscal Policy, Institutional Framework, Business Legislation and Societal Framework.
Business Efficiency (71 criteria) - Extent to which the national environment encourages enterprises to perform in an innovative, profitable and responsible manner: Productivity and Efficiency, Labor Market, Finance, Management Practices and Attitudes and Values.
Infrastructure (113 criteria) - Extent to which basic, technological, scientific and human resources meet the needs of business: Basic Infrastructure, Technological Infrastructure, Scientific Infrastructure, Health and Environment and Education.

http://www.imd.org/uupload/imd.website/wcc/methodology.pdf

cordially,
Scofflaw

gaius c · 31-05-2013 9:24am

Scortho wrote: »

Whatever about Ireland being more competitive than the uk or France, how can we be more competitive than china?

Because the stuff we make doesn't break after a week.[/outlandish stereotyping because we don't actually make stuff anymore]

Scofflaw · 31-05-2013 1:19pm

gaius c wrote: »

Because the stuff we make doesn't break after a week.[/outlandish stereotyping because we don't actually make stuff anymore]

We make quite a bit, but mostly chemicals/pharmaceuticals:

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/export/irl/all/show/2010/

Recorded gramophone records...?

cordially,
Scofflaw

ardmacha · 31-05-2013 1:35pm

Whatever about Ireland being more competitive than the uk or France, how can we be more competitive than china?

At the risk of perpetuating stereotypes, in Ireland they'll let you pay vast royalties tax free for your intellectual property, in China they'll steal your intellectual property. For anything advanced this is important.

31-05-2013 2:15pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Recorded gramophone records...?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Shrink wrapped DVDs of Windows or the like maybe?

L1011 · 31-05-2013 10:08pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Recorded gramophone records...?

There *was* a CD pressing plant in Youghal. Long gone but there may be another somewhere.

Scofflaw · 01-06-2013 12:30am

MYOB wrote: »

There *was* a CD pressing plant in Youghal. Long gone but there may be another somewhere.

Apparently not - what's classified under 'recorded gramophone records' seems to be, well, recorded gramophone records:

Classifying blank and recorded media

Recordable media include:

disks like CDs and DVDs
magnetic tapes
flash memory cards

Many can be either blank or pre-recorded. Most blank and recorded media are classified under heading code 8523.

Blank disks
Classification of blank unrecorded disks can be complicated. Although all of these types of disk are read by laser systems, the recording (writing) systems differ. Disks fall into the following classes:

CD-R disks. These are unrecorded blank disks of 'Orange Book II' type that use laser technology for both reading and writing. CD-R disks are classified under subheading code 8523 40 11 00.
CD-RW disks. These use Phase-change technology for recording and erasing and are classified under subheading code 8523 40 19 00.
Blank Minidiscs. These use magnetic optical technology for recording and erasing. The blank disks have a magnetic layer and are rigid magnetic disks. Blank Minidiscs are classified under subheading code 8523 29 15 00.
Other blank magneto-optical disks. These are classified under subheading code 8523 29 15 00.
DVD-R disks. The technology of these disks is assumed to be similar to the CD-R disk in that they use laser technology for both reading and writing. DVD-R disks are classified under subheading code 8523 40 13 00.
DVD+RW disks. These use Phase-change technology for recording and erasing and are classified under subheading code 8523 40 19 00.

Blank magnetic tapes
Magnetic tapes include audio cassette tapes, reels, video cassette tapes, mini DV and so on. They're classified under subheading code 8523 29 15 00.

Flash memory cards
These contain two or more flash memory integrated electronic circuits mounted on a base. There are different types of flash memory card, including Compact Flash, Smart Media and Secure Digital. They're classified under subheading code 8523 51 10 00.

Micro drives
These are miniature hard disk drives. They're classified under subheading code 8471 70 50 90.

Recorded gramophone records
These are classified under subheading code 8523 80 99 00.

http://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/classifying-blank-and-recorded-media

perplexed,
Scofflaw

feargale · 01-06-2013 1:21am

What eejits we were to abandon our traditional industries, Donegal tweed, Carrickmacross lace, Cork and Foxford woollens, in favour of here today, gone tomorrow multinational fly by nights, Believe me, it will rebound on us,

nesf · 01-06-2013 2:07am

feargale wrote: »

What eejits we were to abandon our traditional industries, Donegal tweed, Carrickmacross lace, Cork and Foxford woollens, in favour of here today, gone tomorrow multinational fly by nights, Believe me, it will rebound on us,

Those industries can employ a nation?

realitykeeper · 01-06-2013 8:41am

The EU and IMF are not neutral bystanders. They have invested billions in this country in the hope that we might not default. I think we will default because the policy of stimulus is about to fail - not just here, but crucially in the EU and the US. The reason I know this is because both the EU and US have lowered interest rates almost as low as they can go without dipping into negative territory. If interest rates drop to zero or below, there will be a flight of capital from the banks triggering chaos across the global financial system with immediate consequences for the movement of goods and capital.

The depression we were supposed to have in 2008 was always going to happen but because of the billions borrowed to stave off the inevitable, that depression will now be several times worse than it would have been.

Farmer Pudsey · 01-06-2013 10:19am

realitykeeper wrote: »

The EU and IMF are not neutral bystanders. They have invested billions in this country in the hope that we might not default. I think we will default because the policy of stimulus is about to fail - not just here, but crucially in the EU and the US. The reason I know this is because both the EU and US have lowered interest rates almost as low as they can go without dipping into negative territory. If interest rates drop to zero or below, there will be a flight of capital from the banks triggering chaos across the global financial system with immediate consequences for the movement of goods and capital.

The depression we were supposed to have in 2008 was always going to happen but because of the billions borrowed to stave off the inevitable, that depression will now be several times worse than it would have been.

And where will this flight of capital go. Most sane people would be reluctant to leave 10K not to mind 100K under the bed in a buiscuit tin. In reality mediun term deposit rates 2-3 years are still around 2.5%. It is only short term rates that are at or below euro rates.

Also is 0-2% return better in Ireland than 3-4% in Cyprus or Singapore. What low interest rates will tend to do is encourage people to take more risk investing and also make money cheaper to buisnesses.

It also encourages people with savings to spend some money as it may be reducing in value and there may be perceived value in an economy that is in limbo.

Cody Pomeray · 01-06-2013 12:56pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

The EU and IMF are not neutral bystanders. They have invested billions in this country in the hope that we might not default. I think we will default because the policy of stimulus is about to fail - not just here, but crucially in the EU and the US. The reason I know this is because both the EU and US have lowered interest rates almost as low as they can go without dipping into negative territory. If interest rates drop to zero or below, there will be a flight of capital from the banks triggering chaos across the global financial system with immediate consequences for the movement of goods and capital.

The depression we were supposed to have in 2008 was always going to happen but because of the billions borrowed to stave off the inevitable, that depression will now be several times worse than it would have been.

chicken licken?

maninasia · 01-06-2013 2:20pm

feargale wrote: »

What eejits we were to abandon our traditional industries, Donegal tweed, Carrickmacross lace, Cork and Foxford woollens, in favour of here today, gone tomorrow multinational fly by nights, Believe me, it will rebound on us,

It's been a bit of a disaster, I agree.

Let me explain. From the perspective of someone who has been based in Asia long term, I continually lament the lack of penetration of Irish brands into the markets and consciousness of the vast consumer markets here.

We had what they want. They want the good stuff, the historical stuff, the unique stuff, the quality stuff.

Waterford crystal being the prime example. What a heritage, what a brand, by the time the middle class boomed here in Asia Waterford Crystal was not able to invest and capitalise, it had been shelled out and outsourced production to other countries. Waterford could have been HUGE. Waterford could have boomed off Waterford Crystal if done right. Don't believe me? Look into the story of Swarovski.

Finally some people are starting to look into Asian markets, but they are still very slow to get going. Irish whiskey is a beggar compared to the dominance of Scotch whiskey, a massive money spinner for Diageo and others (although not a massive employer due to automation).

So many areas we should be leaders, and we are not, because we were sitting on our ass with these multinationals and their tax dodges.

feargale · 01-06-2013 5:18pm

nesf wrote: »

Those industries can employ a nation?

They wouldn't be jumping to employ the Indian or Moroccan nation as soon as the government here asked them to pay a few bob of tax.

ardmacha · 01-06-2013 6:06pm

They wouldn't be jumping to employ the Indian or Moroccan nation

Not that they do. I'd say the likes of Apple has feck all Moroccans.
But if they did wish to employ such people they could do it in Morocco, with little advantage to Ireland.

nesf · 01-06-2013 10:31pm

feargale wrote: »

They wouldn't be jumping to employ the Indian or Moroccan nation as soon as the government here asked them to pay a few bob of tax.

a) You'd be surprised what kinds of traditional industries can be outsourced.

b) Again, you can't employ a nation with them, so it's pointless to hold them up as examples and say we can avoid industries that are not especially unique to Ireland.

feargale · 01-06-2013 11:36pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Not that they do. I'd say the likes of Apple has feck all Moroccans.
But if they did wish to employ such people they could do it in Morocco, with little advantage to Ireland.

That's my point.

[Jackass] · 02-06-2013 12:35am

feargale wrote: »

What eejits we were to abandon our traditional industries, Donegal tweed, Carrickmacross lace, Cork and Foxford woollens, in favour of here today, gone tomorrow multinational fly by nights, Believe me, it will rebound on us,

We have a high skilled workforce, this isn't craggy island and saturating the world market with wooly jumpers isn't going to fix anything.

On the OP, I think a lot to do with our improvement in competitiveness is through Government and Business efficiency, but the whole backbone to all of this is our corporate tax rate, which Europe are desperately trying to bring a universal agreement on, and I don't know if we can hold out forever.

If we lost that advantage, our excessive wage rigidity and energy costs, poor IT infrastructure, potentially high pre-collapse long term lease agreements, could make us a very attractive country to leave if the industry could avail of much cheaper labour force and rates in a suburb of a small German city which is also central for distribution, unlike Ireland.

I still don't think we have brought anything new to the table or have developed a niche or industry that will boom to get us out of our troubles, and most importantly, I think a frighteningly large portion of our production industry is from FDI, another inflated bubble that if we were to lose our advantages there, could further collapse the economy.

I would be interested to see the difference in our GDP and GNP now and in the boom years. I would imagine the gap has widened further from an already massive disparity by international standards.

Scofflaw · 02-06-2013 2:45am

[Jackass] wrote: »

We have a high skilled workforce, this isn't craggy island and saturating the world market with wooly jumpers isn't going to fix anything.

On the OP, I think a lot to do with our improvement in competitiveness is through Government and Business efficiency, but the whole backbone to all of this is our corporate tax rate, which Europe are desperately trying to bring a universal agreement on, and I don't know if we can hold out forever.

If we lost that advantage, our excessive wage rigidity and energy costs, poor IT infrastructure, potentially high pre-collapse long term lease agreements, could make us a very attractive country to leave if the industry could avail of much cheaper labour force and rates in a suburb of a small German city which is also central for distribution, unlike Ireland.

I still don't think we have brought anything new to the table or have developed a niche or industry that will boom to get us out of our troubles, and most importantly, I think a frighteningly large portion of our production industry is from FDI, another inflated bubble that if we were to lose our advantages there, could further collapse the economy.

I would be interested to see the difference in our GDP and GNP now and in the boom years. I would imagine the gap has widened further from an already massive disparity by international standards.

You're not wrong:

Year|GDP|GNP|GNP as % GDP
1997|68154|59661|87.54%
1998|78685|68739|87.36%
1999|90682|77133|85.06%
2000|105774|90286|85.36%
2001|117643|98668|83.87%
2002|130878|107182|81.89%
2003|140828|119103|84.57%
2004|150195|127316|84.77%
2005|163036|138777|85.12%
2006|177730|154465|86.91%
2007|188730|162209|85.95%
2008|178882|153564|85.85%
2009|161275|132911|82.41%
2010|156486|130202|83.20%
2011|158993|127016|79.89%
2012|163596|133403|81.54%

cordially,
Scofflaw

maninasia · 02-06-2013 6:21am

nesf wrote: »

Those industries can employ a nation?

And the current industries can?

The logic of the current situation says we are doing something BADLY wrong.

We need all these niche industries to create a diverse and robust economy which gives work and income opportunities for business people and employees across the whole island.

You see you are not going to get Facebook or Google operating out of Donegal. But you can have Donegal Tweed operating out of Donegal (hypothetical company, I'm not familiar with the names).

They will employ construction workers, machinists, designers , textile workers, sales and marketing, web designers, logistics personnel. Theiy will boost demand in the locally deprived area. They will purchase wool from local farmers if they want guaranteed Irish. What's the problem with this scheme?

Not only that, Dongegal tweed could be right down the street of millions of newly affluent consumers looking for quality and uniqueness, happy to see production from Donegal and nowhere else. Authencity. Locking jobs and wealth into a poor and remote part of our island. What might be twee and old fashioned to us might be cutting edge fashion to them. And there's no reason to stick to old ways, we can explore new products and new styles to suit the new consumer markets tastes.

Donegal tweed could become a tourist attraction giving people the last boost they need to visit the North West.

The same can be repeated island wife wth craft and heritage products . It's not small business either once you get the brand established worldwide. Fashion is one of the worlds biggest industries.

So people who sneer at these ideas really need to go out and learn about the world. What's wrong with the vision above? Not achievable? Nonsense, it's perfectly achievable with hard work, investment and good planning.

China has just agreed to give exclusive branding to Scothh whiskey and Champane from the champagne region in France. That's guaranteed 100s of millions to billions a year in sales, it cannot be taken away because the regional trademark is protected, it's basically like printing money with fantastic profit margins to boot!

nesf · 02-06-2013 6:27am

maninasia wrote: »

And the current industries can?

The logic of the current situation says we are doing something BADLY wrong.

We need all these niche industries to create a diverse and robust economy which gives work and income opportunities for business people and employees across the whole island.

You see you are not going to get Facebook or Google operating out of Donegal. But you can have Donegal Tweed operating out of Donegal (hypothetical company, I'm not familiar with the names).

Not only that, Dongegal tweed could be right down the street of millions of newly affluent consumers looking for quality and uniqueness, happy to see production from Donegal and nowhere else. Authencity. Locking jobs and wealth into a poor and remote part of our island. What might be twee and old fashioned to us might be cutting edge fashion to them. And there's no reason to stick to old ways, we can explore new products and new styles to suit the new consumer markets tastes.

The same can be repeated island wife wth craft and heritage products . It's not small business either once you get the brand established worldwide. Fashion is one of the worlds biggest industries.

So people who sneer at these ideas really need to go out and learn about the world.

China has just agreed to give exclusive branding to Scothh whiskey and Champane from the champagne region in France. That's guaranteed 100s of millions to billions a year in sales, it cannot be taken away because the regional trademark is protected, it's basically like printing money with fantastic profit margins to boot!

I'm not snearing at those ideas. I think Brora is a perfect example of how to do it right (and even Brora I believe outsources some of its lower end production to the Far East, only the high end stuff is handmade in Scotland). I'm just pointing out that these aren't industries that can employ vast amounts of people due to our edge in them being providing high quality, low quantity goods which are not hugely labour intensive.

I suppose I'm mostly bemused by the idea that we can actually plan this. Economies really don't work that way. We can encourage many things but actual direction of the economy doesn't work.

maninasia · 02-06-2013 6:34am

nesf wrote: »

I'm not snearing at those ideas. I think Brora is a perfect example of how to do it right (and even Brora I believe outsources much of its production to the Far East, only the very high end stuff is handmade in Scotland). I'm just pointing out that these aren't industries that can employ vast amounts of people due to our edge in them being providing high quality, low quantity goods which are not hugely labour intensive.

I suppose I'm mostly bemused by the idea that we can actually plan this. Economies really don't work that way. We can encourage many things but actual direction of the economy doesn't work.

You obviously don't take it seriously, and yet the numbers add up to significant long term and highly profitable business providing good employment around the country.

Yes you can't know in advance which ones are the bullseyes and which are off the board, but helping to foster and promote these heritage businesses overseas simply makes a lot of sense overall. Often they simply need some help to reach new markets or to upgrade their capabilities.

For instance LV is French culture and French culture is LV.

In fact this is exactly what all our competitors do, linking their country brand with their products, we should be in the game too, instead of cutting back our funding for promotion of Irish culture and associated products and services in the East and elsewhere.

You also completely ignored my point about regional trademarking, which is a state to state sponsored result that is completely planned from start to finish. It doesn't come from 'the free market' (which doesnt really exist anyway) but from a strategic approach to trade.

We had our wins with our strategic tax approach, those days are going now, and we need new strategies and plans to work off our inherent advantages and at the same time hope to build a more robust local industry.

The difference of an additional 10 to 20% employment from successful local companies across the economy as a whole is the difference between recession and prosperity. In fact in the regional areas its often the difference between no job and depression or having a job and a decent town to live in

So to not take this seriously, it doesn't make sense.

nesf · 02-06-2013 7:19am

maninasia wrote: »

You obviously don't take it seriously, and yet the numbers add up to significant long term and highly profitable business providing good employment around the country.

Grand, give some evidence then, and no pointing out a large indigenous industry in another country with completely different comparative advantages doesn't count. Where are these numbers that add up? What is "good" employment? 10,000 people, 100,000 people? What? How much will be outsourced? We can't do cheap clothes here, wages are far too high and by cheap I don't mean Penny's cheap.

Look, I'm all for local indigenous industry. I'm just sceptical of them as a panacea. We already do very substantial exports to the Far East with high quality agricultural products and intermediary products. An Bord Bia do a lot of work in this area.

maninasia · 02-06-2013 7:50am

nesf wrote: »

Grand, give some evidence then, and no pointing out a large indigenous industry in another country with completely different comparative advantages doesn't count. Where are these numbers that add up? What is "good" employment? 10,000 people, 100,000 people? What? How much will be outsourced? We can't do cheap clothes here, wages are far too high and by cheap I don't mean Penny's cheap.

Look, I'm all for local indigenous industry. I'm just sceptical of them as a panacea. We already do very substantial exports to the Far East with high quality agricultural products and intermediary products. An Bord Bia do a lot of work in this area.

We do not do anything like the exports we should be doing to the Far East, we really dropped the ball on it for years and years and saw surprisingly little growth in the last five years. Don't believe the spin, it's simply not true.

Irish whiskey is almost unknown. Same for Waterford crystal or woolen products. Irish dairy produce is extremely hard to find while French, Dutch, New Zealand and others are everywhere. Guinness has some presence but no other Irish beers or ciders are broadly available. Never see any Irish meat products! Seen Irish oats but only through an American brand. Never seen irish fashion brands or outlets. No Irish brand milk powder although they possibly supply through the multinationals brands.

Glanbia signed a deal just recently with a Chinese brand and kerrygroup have some operations but they are NOT a brand presence. The big players are New Zealand, Australia, the US etc. Ireland is top ten in dairy production in the world but has not done well in Asia comparitively.

No real promotion of Irish education sector or tourism. Problems with visa still.

Only seen one Irish cosmetic product.

Poor showing indeed but not surprising due to previous focus on European and Anglo markets and lack of grade offices and support in the region, and lack of recognition of 'brand Ireland'.

nesf · 02-06-2013 2:23pm

maninasia wrote: »

We do not do anything like the exports we should be doing to the Far East, we really dropped the ball on it for years and years and saw surprisingly little growth in the last five years. Don't believe the spin, it's simply not true.

Irish whiskey is almost unknown. Same for Waterford crystal or woolen products. Irish dairy produce is extremely hard to find while French, Dutch, New Zealand and others are everywhere. Guinness has some presence but no other Irish beers or ciders are broadly available. Never see any Irish meat products! Seen Irish oats but only through an American brand. Never seen irish fashion brands or outlets. No Irish brand milk powder although they possibly supply through the multinationals brands.

Glanbia signed a deal just recently with a Chinese brand and kerrygroup have some operations but they are NOT a brand presence. The big players are New Zealand, Australia, the US etc. Ireland is top ten in dairy production in the world but has not done well in Asia comparitively.

No real promotion of Irish education sector or tourism. Problems with visa still.

Only seen one Irish cosmetic product.

Poor showing indeed but not surprising due to previous focus on European and Anglo markets and lack of grade offices and support in the region, and lack of recognition of 'brand Ireland'.

Whey was a big one mentioned to me by someone working for Bord Bia. We apparently sell quite a lot of it. You'll not notice that from looking at shelves though. You also, to be fair, wouldn't think there was a lot of Thai chicken in Ireland if you went looking at chicken in Tescos/Supervalu though and we both know the situation there.

We probably could be doing a lot better in the Far East. The last I heard was that we sold almost all of our meat in Hong Kong and relatively little elsewhere in China. Given the cost of Irish meat it wouldn't be surprising if it was only finding a market in the wealthier parts of the country.

maninasia · 02-06-2013 2:49pm

BSE hasn't helped our case in terms of beef sales. We should be doing a lot of lamb but I think the Aussies have the cheap stuff wrapped up and New Zealand has more recognition in Asia. Oats are now huge worldwide, Ireland is one of the only authentic sources for steel cut oats, and yet again where are our brands? The steel cut oats I found in the local speciality store was an American brand with Irish oats inside.

I know whey is a big seller worldwide from major food producers in Ireland. I think it's a pity they haven't had the brand presence and investment in the retail side of things, perhaps they will start into it now. It all takes time and money.

Seafood is probably a big one too but again most of Ireland's quality stuff is sold in France, just like the lamb.

The big opportunities are there for the small and new operators, with no real brand recognition at home and abroad. They can get into new markets and gain market share on a fairly equal footing, as long as the quality is good and their strategy is right, they have a fighting chance of making it big. They have to be willing to adapt their product/service to local tastes , and this requires more interaction with the Asian market to understand what they want (which is certainly not the same as the Yanks want, for example), investment and time spent again.

sock puppet · 02-06-2013 5:38pm

maninasia wrote: »

Irish whiskey is almost unknown. Same for Waterford crystal or woolen products. Irish dairy produce is extremely hard to find while French, Dutch, New Zealand and others are everywhere. Guinness has some presence but no other Irish beers or ciders are broadly available. Never see any Irish meat products! Seen Irish oats but only through an American brand. Never seen irish fashion brands or outlets. No Irish brand milk powder although they possibly supply through the multinationals brands.

To be fair other than the few big ones Irish beers are barely sold in Ireland!

Suryavarman · 02-06-2013 6:35pm

maninasia wrote: »

You obviously don't take it seriously, and yet the numbers add up to significant long term and highly profitable business providing good employment around the country.

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

maninasia · 03-06-2013 2:55am

Yes, there are not enough smaller and newer players, but I heard that is changing quickly.

maninasia · 03-06-2013 2:59am

Suryavarman wrote: »

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

I would like to work with smaller players in Ireland to help them develop their businesses, in fact I have tried with a couple, but often they haven't even replied to me.

I have a long standing idea how to develop woolen brand female fashion products in Asia, yes, but again I don't know this market too well, not being female and not being in the fashion biz! However I know what suits the climate here.

No business is easy and there is always the chance of failure. However if you succeed the rewards are huge.

nesf · 03-06-2013 3:42am

maninasia wrote: »

I would like to work with smaller players in Ireland to help them develop their businesses, in fact I have tried with a couple, but often they haven't even replied to me.

I have a long standing idea how to develop woolen brand female fashion products in Asia, yes, but again I don't know this market too well, not being female and not being in the fashion biz! However I know what suits the climate here.

No business is easy and there is always the chance of failure. However if you succeed the rewards are huge.

Isn't fashion much riskier than other businesses though? In terms of failures of start-ups? This might explain the reluctance.

feargale · 03-06-2013 1:30pm

Suryavarman wrote: »

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

How do you know he isn't rich already?

gaius c · 03-06-2013 7:00pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

We make quite a bit, but mostly chemicals/pharmaceuticals:

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/export/irl/all/show/2010/

Recorded gramophone records...?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I was being facetious and our exports do in fact have very high value but that doesn't tell the whole story (in the same way that Ireland being a net exporter of food during the Great Famine doesn't tell that story). I also work in that chem/pharma sector btw.

The MNC sector only employs a very small percentage of the labour force and we've pretty much maxed that out now. Any further jobs growth there will be incremental and diminishing returns on the money invested in it. I'm convinced that we will not see any real change in employment stats until we figure out a way to get non-"smart economy" jobs growing.

An example would be unsexy industry like lumber processing. We have loads of trees. We cut them down and ship them to Scandinavia for them to process into planks. Then they ship them back to us for build stuff with. Why do we do this? Because it's actually more cost effective to send our lumber on two sea journeys and processed by the relatively expensive Scandic countries. This is the kind of stuff we need to tackle. A job in such a plant would be fairly low paying but it would supply jobs to lower-educated workers. Right now, there's only so many barista jobs they can do.

The septic tiger killed those jobs because they could make more on a building site. One such plant was closed in Edenderry (fairly sure it's Edenderry) and knocked down to make way for a housing estate. It's now an empty field and the lads who used to work there are on the dole because all the building jobs are gone.
Oh and they can't bring the plant back because the bank have no money to lend for the capital investment and nobody else will back it because all our other costs are too high.

If we keep going with the MNC at all costs approach, we're going to turn into Puerto Rico where you either work for an MNC or you shine the shoes of those that do.

Edit: Hadn't read pages 2 & 3 before I replied but I see most folks think alike with me.
From somebody who is working in the sector, Irish whiskey and craft beers have huge potential. Moulson Coors bought out the Franciscan Well in Cork with the intention of gearing them up for export. It won't employ all the unemployed folk in Cork but it's jobs I rather have here than somewhere else.

Scofflaw · 03-06-2013 11:26pm

gaius c wrote: »

I was being facetious and our exports do in fact have very high value but that doesn't tell the whole story (in the same way that Ireland being a net exporter of food during the Great Famine doesn't tell that story). I also work in that chem/pharma sector btw.

The MNC sector only employs a very small percentage of the labour force and we've pretty much maxed that out now. Any further jobs growth there will be incremental and diminishing returns on the money invested in it. I'm convinced that we will not see any real change in employment stats until we figure out a way to get non-"smart economy" jobs growing.

An example would be unsexy industry like lumber processing. We have loads of trees. We cut them down and ship them to Scandinavia for them to process into planks. Then they ship them back to us for build stuff with. Why do we do this? Because it's actually more cost effective to send our lumber on two sea journeys and processed by the relatively expensive Scandic countries. This is the kind of stuff we need to tackle. A job in such a plant would be fairly low paying but it would supply jobs to lower-educated workers. Right now, there's only so many barista jobs they can do.

The septic tiger killed those jobs because they could make more on a building site. One such plant was closed in Edenderry (fairly sure it's Edenderry) and knocked down to make way for a housing estate. It's now an empty field and the lads who used to work there are on the dole because all the building jobs are gone.
Oh and they can't bring the plant back because the bank have no money to lend for the capital investment and nobody else will back it because all our other costs are too high.

If we keep going with the MNC at all costs approach, we're going to turn into Puerto Rico where you either work for an MNC or you shine the shoes of those that do.

Edit: Hadn't read pages 2 & 3 before I replied but I see most folks think alike with me.
From somebody who is working in the sector, Irish whiskey and craft beers have huge potential. Moulson Coors bought out the Franciscan Well in Cork with the intention of gearing them up for export. It won't employ all the unemployed folk in Cork but it's jobs I rather have here than somewhere else.

To be honest, when I had a look at that graphic, it struck me that although it backed up the point it was making, it also leads one to the point you're making - our heavy, heavy reliance on the MNCs. And you're quite correct as well that MNCs employ only a small proportion of the workforce - I think the estimate is somewhere around 100,000 all told, which is about 5%. The vast majority of people in Ireland are employed, as they are everywhere, in the small business sector, and Irish small businesses aren't particularly good at exports or overseas markets.

We do have government initiatives and organisations to assist, but it's a very hard step, because the domestic market is so small that most companies can't get the momentum - either financially or organisationally - to expand into other markets. I'd agree that the quality brands have the best shot at it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maninasia · 03-06-2013 11:48pm

Suryavarman wrote: »

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

Things that seems to obvious to a person in one place are not obvious at all to a person in another place.

Do people know that Xi Jin Pings daughter likes to wear Aran sweaters?

Do people know who Xi Jin Ping is?

Now would an Aran sweater work in Southern China? Not quite.

It's this kind of background cultural knowledge and how to promote products that is missing.

maninasia · 04-06-2013 6:07am

Just as an observation about Irish whiskey, I believe the only independent distillery was sold off recently to a multinational group. They guy made his money and was clapped on the back for selling it off. Good for him I guess.

This was his comment.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#ixzz2VE18vjm5

''The nerds say we have sold out and they are right. But it was impossible to compete with the big guys. Now we can get on every shelf in the US market,” said Mr Teeling, whose multiple business ventures have spanned zinc, gold and diamond mining as well as green energy technologies and oil.
All the big Irish whiskey producers are now owned by multinational companies.

Why was it impossible to compete with the big guys? Compete against who? How does he know what the foreign company will do with the brand, he's just sold it off!
They were making decent revenue and profit and have massive potential if marketed right. Why not try and raise money in the local stock market or in the UK market?

You see he just mentions the US...but he should have been very well aware that the big market for whiskey is moving to Asia..or did he really not know that???? He was looking West, when he should have been looking East. Or at least both ways. Of course he was probably looking at the size of the check about to be written out more than anything. The nerds voices were getting in the way of this quiet contemplation. This type of business 'entrepeneurship', buy relatively cheap and rationalise, build up a modicum of success, and sell to the Yanks, is the favoured route to riches these days in the UK and Ireland. It's a tried and trusted path.

Their website doesn't mention anything about foreign ownership, that's curious isn't it? At least they still seem to be Irish distilled and operated...for now.

http://www.kilbeggandistillingcompany.com/our-brands

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#axzz2VDzckyBo

I don't think the multinationals have the same focus in terms of development than an independent operator might have. For instance if they own a stable of Scotch and Irish whiskeys, they may end up going up with the easy sell Scotch as it has more recognition and demand in the market. So you see them aiming the Irish stuff mostly into UK, America and France, where it's an easier and quicker sell, rather than really pushing into Asia for the big but longer-term pay-off.

There's also the problem that the profits are moved off shore. If the companies were owned by local investors or listed on the stock market in Ireland, more of the profits could potentially be reinvested here.

I understand that they can also have the resources to promote a brand worldwide and invest in facilities, but you just lose the ability to control that process, becoming a bit of a cog in a wheel. Business owners have to have the ambition to be a global player..or not as it may be.

In Ireland they usually get to a medium level of success... and are then sold off.

theUbiq · 04-06-2013 8:00am

All of this propaganda is irrelevant for as long as the current generation of clowns are running our government/country. The vested interests in this country meaning the media, certain members of the government and the civil service, some bankers and wealthy business owners all bought into the property boom, and will do anything including lying to the public, that's you and I, about property prices and what NAMA is or isn't doing to maintain their wealth and status. These people and their condescending attitudes towards 99% their fellow Irish are the problem so removing these people will restore our competitiveness. RTE, the Irish Times, The Irish Independent, Fianna Fail, NAMA, AIB and Bank Of Ireland will continue to drag our country down with lies and outright deceit.. Heard about NAMA employees buying properties cheap? Why don't the mainstream media report NAMA **** ups? How can Ireland compete when these people appear to be either working against us or grossly incompetent?

gaius c · 04-06-2013 9:20am

Okay, let's break this down.

maninasia wrote: »

Just as an observation about Irish whiskey, I believe the only independent distillery was sold off recently to a multinational group. They guy made his money and was clapped on the back for selling it off. Good for him I guess.

This was his comment.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#ixzz2VE18vjm5

Why was it impossible to compete with the big guys? Compete against who? How does he know what the foreign company will do with the brand, he's just sold it off!
They were making decent revenue and profit and have massive potential if marketed right. Why not try and raise money in the local stock market or in the UK market?

But that's what he did. He raised money by an equity sale. It just so happens that he sold all the equity rather than just part of it.
As Teeling himself said:

Beam can do in 10 years what it would take Cooley, on its own, 30 years to do

Cooley made supermarket whiskeys for a long time because they were starting from a low base. Margins are very tight on such products and you really have to watch the cents, carefully hoard them and gradually bring more premium products (with higher margins) online.

You see he just mentions the US...but he should have been very well aware that the big market for whiskey is moving to Asia..or did he really not know that???? He was looking West, when he should have been looking East. Or at least both ways. Of course he was probably looking at the size of the check about to be written out more than anything. The nerds voices were getting in the way of this quiet contemplation. This type of business 'entrepeneurship', buy relatively cheap and rationalise, build up a modicum of success, and sell to the Yanks, is the favoured route to riches these days in the UK and Ireland. It's a tried and trusted path.

You're putting the cart before the horse there. Irish whiskey sales are increasing dramatically in the US and it's the tipple of choice for the younger generation as "Scotch" is increasingly seen as old-fashioned and boring.

Their website doesn't mention anything about foreign ownership, that's curious isn't it? At least they still seem to be Irish distilled and operated...for now.

One thing we need to sort out is legal protection for the term "Irish Whiskey". If you make whiskey in your garage and bottle it after 6 months, calling it "Scottish whisky", amongst the other legal difficulties you'll find yourself in will be letters from solicitors representing the Scottish Whiskey Society telling you to call it something else or face the consequences.

Tighten up our legal protection and you'll find that Irish whiskey will be an "exclusively Irish product". You can't move the plant to Poland and still call it Irish whiskey. For starters, the serious whiskey drinkers would refuse to drink it.

http://www.kilbeggandistillingcompany.com/our-brands

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#axzz2VDzckyBo

I don't think the multinationals have the same focus in terms of development than an independent operator might have. For instance if they own a stable of Scotch and Irish whiskeys, they may end up going up with the easy sell Scotch as it has more recognition and demand in the market. So you see them aiming the Irish stuff mostly into UK, America and France, where it's an easier and quicker sell, rather than really pushing into Asia for the big but longer-term pay-off.

You're wrong. The multinationals want to make money. Money is made on premium products, not cheap supermarket blends. One of Jim Beams first moves was to cut all the small clients (like Slane whiskey) so they could concentrate on their higher quality whiskeys. Teeling was never in a position to do this because he needed the cash from supermarket whiskeys to slowly build up the quality stock. Jim Beam on the other hand can say "here's €100,000, drop the cheap crap and concentrate on the good stuff" because they know the return will be down the line.

There's also the problem that the profits are moved off shore. If the companies were owned by local investors or listed on the stock market in Ireland, more of the profits could potentially be reinvested here.

Yes and no. Teeling was extremely limited in what capital he could get his hands on, thus investment in plant equipment was rather limited. Now Jim Beam have come in and straight away, they are looking at ways to improve production. Profits going offshore versus Teeling's back pocket? Not really that big a deal because Jim Beam have more money to invest and they'll be able to grow the company quicker.

Pernod Ricard bought Jameson and have poured investment into the place. Midleton has done very well out of it and this will be the model Jim Beam will look to follow.

I understand that they can also have the resources to promote a brand worldwide and invest in facilities, but you just lose the ability to control that process, becoming a bit of a cog in a wheel. Business owners have to have the ambition to be a global player..or not as it may be.

In Ireland they usually get to a medium level of success... and are then sold off.

Teeling had/has that ambition but he's in it for the long run, knows it takes decades to grow his business and he won't be alive by the time the new single malts being distilled now are bottled in 20 years time. The business was always going to have to be sold and I rather it would be a company commited to making something of it rather than anybody like the monopolistic Irish Distillers who came damn close to killing Irish Whiskey altogether.

To say it's the last independent distillery isn't quite accurate either. Dingle distillery is running. So from a situation where we only had 3 distilleries on the entire island, we will now have:
Midleton
Bushmills
Cooley
Kilbeggan
Dingle
Carlow
Union Hall (not whiskey but similarish)
Tullamore (Grants will be building a new distillery there too)

04-06-2013 9:36am

maninasia wrote: »

You see he just mentions the US...but he should have been very well aware that the big market for whiskey is moving to Asia..or did he really not know that???? He was looking West, when he should have been looking East. Or at least both ways.

....

This type of business 'entrepeneurship', buy relatively cheap and rationalise, build up a modicum of success, and sell to the Yanks, is the favoured route to riches these days in the UK and Ireland. It's a tried and trusted path.

I'm not really following what you are complaining about. The man created a business and sold it for €72,000,000. He clearly does know what he is doing and is incredibly successful.

noodler · 05-06-2013 1:50pm

150,000 employed by multinationals.

maninasia · 05-06-2013 3:14pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not really following what you are complaining about. The man created a business and sold it for €72,000,000. He clearly does know what he is doing and is incredibly successful.

Any of Teelings businesses I have come across have been a bigger version of the usual Irish/British story , buy up some small but quality companies , stick a few of them together and rationalize them ,get them pumping out a bit of cash profit, then sell 'em on the big boys in the US . Pay day. None of it is really about building a business to own for the long term.

To me being successful is not only about getting a big pay check. I understand that there are different views on this.

I think Irish whiskey is a goldmine waiting to happen, and it was a BIG mistake financially to sell these premium heritage brands which could be worth a billion in the relatively near future. Why sell just on the cusp? He doesn't want to wait that long, okay. But I always hate to see the big multinationals grabbing real heritage businesses and corporatising them and turning them into 'just another brand in their stable'.

You'll get all the honchos from the US and overseas controlling the direction of Irish whiskey and sucking the profits.

At least the Guinness family were actually Irish and they did invest and contribute a lot to Dublin

gaius c · 05-06-2013 11:34pm

Plain lazy maninasia. Your entire post got Fisked and debunked but you run away and prefer to respond to a one liner instead.

maninasia · 06-06-2013 2:05am

I simply don't have the time or motivation to get into an argument over the whiskey industry in Ireland, I'll just put my views forward, and you can do likewise. People can judge themselves rather than derailing the whole thread.

I will quote this bit which seems illogical

Irish whiskey sales are increasing dramatically in the US and it's the tipple of choice for the younger generation as "Scotch" is increasingly seen as old-fashioned and boring.

So why sell-out now when the party is getting going? There's a curve to acceptance of products in the market, and it looks like they might be going exponential, and they haven't even done anything in the East. Steal of the century for Beam eh?

EDIT- There's always a subtext to every story...good for him and I hope the brothers make it a success and don't sell out for a hundred years

.

http://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2013/06/stephen-teeling-leaves-beam-for-teeling-whiskey-co/

Ireland regaining competitiveness?

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