Ireland regaining competitiveness?

maninasia

Yes, there are not enough smaller and newer players, but I heard that is changing quickly.

maninasia

Suryavarman wrote: »

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

I would like to work with smaller players in Ireland to help them develop their businesses, in fact I have tried with a couple, but often they haven't even replied to me.

I have a long standing idea how to develop woolen brand female fashion products in Asia, yes, but again I don't know this market too well, not being female and not being in the fashion biz! However I know what suits the climate here.

No business is easy and there is always the chance of failure. However if you succeed the rewards are huge.

nesf

maninasia wrote: »

I would like to work with smaller players in Ireland to help them develop their businesses, in fact I have tried with a couple, but often they haven't even replied to me.

I have a long standing idea how to develop woolen brand female fashion products in Asia, yes, but again I don't know this market too well, not being female and not being in the fashion biz! However I know what suits the climate here.

No business is easy and there is always the chance of failure. However if you succeed the rewards are huge.

Isn't fashion much riskier than other businesses though? In terms of failures of start-ups? This might explain the reluctance.

feargale

Suryavarman wrote: »

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

How do you know he isn't rich already?

gaius c

Scofflaw wrote: »

We make quite a bit, but mostly chemicals/pharmaceuticals:



http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/export/irl/all/show/2010/

Recorded gramophone records...?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I was being facetious and our exports do in fact have very high value but that doesn't tell the whole story (in the same way that Ireland being a net exporter of food during the Great Famine doesn't tell that story). I also work in that chem/pharma sector btw.

The MNC sector only employs a very small percentage of the labour force and we've pretty much maxed that out now. Any further jobs growth there will be incremental and diminishing returns on the money invested in it. I'm convinced that we will not see any real change in employment stats until we figure out a way to get non-"smart economy" jobs growing.

An example would be unsexy industry like lumber processing. We have loads of trees. We cut them down and ship them to Scandinavia for them to process into planks. Then they ship them back to us for build stuff with. Why do we do this? Because it's actually more cost effective to send our lumber on two sea journeys and processed by the relatively expensive Scandic countries. This is the kind of stuff we need to tackle. A job in such a plant would be fairly low paying but it would supply jobs to lower-educated workers. Right now, there's only so many barista jobs they can do.

The septic tiger killed those jobs because they could make more on a building site. One such plant was closed in Edenderry (fairly sure it's Edenderry) and knocked down to make way for a housing estate. It's now an empty field and the lads who used to work there are on the dole because all the building jobs are gone.
Oh and they can't bring the plant back because the bank have no money to lend for the capital investment and nobody else will back it because all our other costs are too high.

If we keep going with the MNC at all costs approach, we're going to turn into Puerto Rico where you either work for an MNC or you shine the shoes of those that do.

Edit: Hadn't read pages 2 & 3 before I replied but I see most folks think alike with me.
From somebody who is working in the sector, Irish whiskey and craft beers have huge potential. Moulson Coors bought out the Franciscan Well in Cork with the intention of gearing them up for export. It won't employ all the unemployed folk in Cork but it's jobs I rather have here than somewhere else.

Scofflaw

gaius c wrote: »

I was being facetious and our exports do in fact have very high value but that doesn't tell the whole story (in the same way that Ireland being a net exporter of food during the Great Famine doesn't tell that story). I also work in that chem/pharma sector btw.

The MNC sector only employs a very small percentage of the labour force and we've pretty much maxed that out now. Any further jobs growth there will be incremental and diminishing returns on the money invested in it. I'm convinced that we will not see any real change in employment stats until we figure out a way to get non-"smart economy" jobs growing.

An example would be unsexy industry like lumber processing. We have loads of trees. We cut them down and ship them to Scandinavia for them to process into planks. Then they ship them back to us for build stuff with. Why do we do this? Because it's actually more cost effective to send our lumber on two sea journeys and processed by the relatively expensive Scandic countries. This is the kind of stuff we need to tackle. A job in such a plant would be fairly low paying but it would supply jobs to lower-educated workers. Right now, there's only so many barista jobs they can do.

The septic tiger killed those jobs because they could make more on a building site. One such plant was closed in Edenderry (fairly sure it's Edenderry) and knocked down to make way for a housing estate. It's now an empty field and the lads who used to work there are on the dole because all the building jobs are gone.
Oh and they can't bring the plant back because the bank have no money to lend for the capital investment and nobody else will back it because all our other costs are too high.

If we keep going with the MNC at all costs approach, we're going to turn into Puerto Rico where you either work for an MNC or you shine the shoes of those that do.

Edit: Hadn't read pages 2 & 3 before I replied but I see most folks think alike with me.
From somebody who is working in the sector, Irish whiskey and craft beers have huge potential. Moulson Coors bought out the Franciscan Well in Cork with the intention of gearing them up for export. It won't employ all the unemployed folk in Cork but it's jobs I rather have here than somewhere else.

To be honest, when I had a look at that graphic, it struck me that although it backed up the point it was making, it also leads one to the point you're making - our heavy, heavy reliance on the MNCs. And you're quite correct as well that MNCs employ only a small proportion of the workforce - I think the estimate is somewhere around 100,000 all told, which is about 5%. The vast majority of people in Ireland are employed, as they are everywhere, in the small business sector, and Irish small businesses aren't particularly good at exports or overseas markets.

We do have government initiatives and organisations to assist, but it's a very hard step, because the domestic market is so small that most companies can't get the momentum - either financially or organisationally - to expand into other markets. I'd agree that the quality brands have the best shot at it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maninasia

Suryavarman wrote: »

If it's such a highly profitable business then why hasn't anybody started it yet? Surely somebody knowledgeable in the fashion industry would have spotted this opportunity by now and started such a company.

Maybe you should take this idea and run with it. You could become rich!

Things that seems to obvious to a person in one place are not obvious at all to a person in another place.

Do people know that Xi Jin Pings daughter likes to wear Aran sweaters?

Do people know who Xi Jin Ping is?

Now would an Aran sweater work in Southern China? Not quite.

It's this kind of background cultural knowledge and how to promote products that is missing.

maninasia

Just as an observation about Irish whiskey, I believe the only independent distillery was sold off recently to a multinational group. They guy made his money and was clapped on the back for selling it off. Good for him I guess.

This was his comment.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#ixzz2VE18vjm5

''The nerds say we have sold out and they are right. But it was impossible to compete with the big guys. Now we can get on every shelf in the US market,” said Mr Teeling, whose multiple business ventures have spanned zinc, gold and diamond mining as well as green energy technologies and oil.
All the big Irish whiskey producers are now owned by multinational companies.

Why was it impossible to compete with the big guys? Compete against who? How does he know what the foreign company will do with the brand, he's just sold it off!
They were making decent revenue and profit and have massive potential if marketed right. Why not try and raise money in the local stock market or in the UK market?

You see he just mentions the US...but he should have been very well aware that the big market for whiskey is moving to Asia..or did he really not know that???? He was looking West, when he should have been looking East. Or at least both ways. Of course he was probably looking at the size of the check about to be written out more than anything. The nerds voices were getting in the way of this quiet contemplation. This type of business 'entrepeneurship', buy relatively cheap and rationalise, build up a modicum of success, and sell to the Yanks, is the favoured route to riches these days in the UK and Ireland. It's a tried and trusted path.


Their website doesn't mention anything about foreign ownership, that's curious isn't it? At least they still seem to be Irish distilled and operated...for now.

http://www.kilbeggandistillingcompany.com/our-brands

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#axzz2VDzckyBo

I don't think the multinationals have the same focus in terms of development than an independent operator might have. For instance if they own a stable of Scotch and Irish whiskeys, they may end up going up with the easy sell Scotch as it has more recognition and demand in the market. So you see them aiming the Irish stuff mostly into UK, America and France, where it's an easier and quicker sell, rather than really pushing into Asia for the big but longer-term pay-off.

There's also the problem that the profits are moved off shore. If the companies were owned by local investors or listed on the stock market in Ireland, more of the profits could potentially be reinvested here.

I understand that they can also have the resources to promote a brand worldwide and invest in facilities, but you just lose the ability to control that process, becoming a bit of a cog in a wheel. Business owners have to have the ambition to be a global player..or not as it may be.

In Ireland they usually get to a medium level of success... and are then sold off.

theUbiq

All of this propaganda is irrelevant for as long as the current generation of clowns are running our government/country. The vested interests in this country meaning the media, certain members of the government and the civil service, some bankers and wealthy business owners all bought into the property boom, and will do anything including lying to the public, that's you and I, about property prices and what NAMA is or isn't doing to maintain their wealth and status. These people and their condescending attitudes towards 99% their fellow Irish are the problem so removing these people will restore our competitiveness. RTE, the Irish Times, The Irish Independent, Fianna Fail, NAMA, AIB and Bank Of Ireland will continue to drag our country down with lies and outright deceit.. Heard about NAMA employees buying properties cheap? Why don't the mainstream media report NAMA **** ups? How can Ireland compete when these people appear to be either working against us or grossly incompetent?

gaius c

Okay, let's break this down.

maninasia wrote: »

Just as an observation about Irish whiskey, I believe the only independent distillery was sold off recently to a multinational group. They guy made his money and was clapped on the back for selling it off. Good for him I guess.

This was his comment.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#ixzz2VE18vjm5



Why was it impossible to compete with the big guys? Compete against who? How does he know what the foreign company will do with the brand, he's just sold it off!
They were making decent revenue and profit and have massive potential if marketed right. Why not try and raise money in the local stock market or in the UK market?

But that's what he did. He raised money by an equity sale. It just so happens that he sold all the equity rather than just part of it.
As Teeling himself said:

Beam can do in 10 years what it would take Cooley, on its own, 30 years to do

Cooley made supermarket whiskeys for a long time because they were starting from a low base. Margins are very tight on such products and you really have to watch the cents, carefully hoard them and gradually bring more premium products (with higher margins) online.

You see he just mentions the US...but he should have been very well aware that the big market for whiskey is moving to Asia..or did he really not know that???? He was looking West, when he should have been looking East. Or at least both ways. Of course he was probably looking at the size of the check about to be written out more than anything. The nerds voices were getting in the way of this quiet contemplation. This type of business 'entrepeneurship', buy relatively cheap and rationalise, build up a modicum of success, and sell to the Yanks, is the favoured route to riches these days in the UK and Ireland. It's a tried and trusted path.

You're putting the cart before the horse there. Irish whiskey sales are increasing dramatically in the US and it's the tipple of choice for the younger generation as "Scotch" is increasingly seen as old-fashioned and boring.

Their website doesn't mention anything about foreign ownership, that's curious isn't it? At least they still seem to be Irish distilled and operated...for now.

One thing we need to sort out is legal protection for the term "Irish Whiskey". If you make whiskey in your garage and bottle it after 6 months, calling it "Scottish whisky", amongst the other legal difficulties you'll find yourself in will be letters from solicitors representing the Scottish Whiskey Society telling you to call it something else or face the consequences.

Tighten up our legal protection and you'll find that Irish whiskey will be an "exclusively Irish product". You can't move the plant to Poland and still call it Irish whiskey. For starters, the serious whiskey drinkers would refuse to drink it.

http://www.kilbeggandistillingcompany.com/our-brands

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/99488406-40f2-11e1-b521-00144feab49a.html#axzz2VDzckyBo

I don't think the multinationals have the same focus in terms of development than an independent operator might have. For instance if they own a stable of Scotch and Irish whiskeys, they may end up going up with the easy sell Scotch as it has more recognition and demand in the market. So you see them aiming the Irish stuff mostly into UK, America and France, where it's an easier and quicker sell, rather than really pushing into Asia for the big but longer-term pay-off.

You're wrong. The multinationals want to make money. Money is made on premium products, not cheap supermarket blends. One of Jim Beams first moves was to cut all the small clients (like Slane whiskey) so they could concentrate on their higher quality whiskeys. Teeling was never in a position to do this because he needed the cash from supermarket whiskeys to slowly build up the quality stock. Jim Beam on the other hand can say "here's €100,000, drop the cheap crap and concentrate on the good stuff" because they know the return will be down the line.

There's also the problem that the profits are moved off shore. If the companies were owned by local investors or listed on the stock market in Ireland, more of the profits could potentially be reinvested here.

Yes and no. Teeling was extremely limited in what capital he could get his hands on, thus investment in plant equipment was rather limited. Now Jim Beam have come in and straight away, they are looking at ways to improve production. Profits going offshore versus Teeling's back pocket? Not really that big a deal because Jim Beam have more money to invest and they'll be able to grow the company quicker.

Pernod Ricard bought Jameson and have poured investment into the place. Midleton has done very well out of it and this will be the model Jim Beam will look to follow.

I understand that they can also have the resources to promote a brand worldwide and invest in facilities, but you just lose the ability to control that process, becoming a bit of a cog in a wheel. Business owners have to have the ambition to be a global player..or not as it may be.

In Ireland they usually get to a medium level of success... and are then sold off.

Teeling had/has that ambition but he's in it for the long run, knows it takes decades to grow his business and he won't be alive by the time the new single malts being distilled now are bottled in 20 years time. The business was always going to have to be sold and I rather it would be a company commited to making something of it rather than anybody like the monopolistic Irish Distillers who came damn close to killing Irish Whiskey altogether.

To say it's the last independent distillery isn't quite accurate either. Dingle distillery is running. So from a situation where we only had 3 distilleries on the entire island, we will now have:
Midleton
Bushmills
Cooley
Kilbeggan
Dingle
Carlow
Union Hall (not whiskey but similarish)
Tullamore (Grants will be building a new distillery there too)

maninasia

maninasia wrote: »

You see he just mentions the US...but he should have been very well aware that the big market for whiskey is moving to Asia..or did he really not know that???? He was looking West, when he should have been looking East. Or at least both ways.

....

This type of business 'entrepeneurship', buy relatively cheap and rationalise, build up a modicum of success, and sell to the Yanks, is the favoured route to riches these days in the UK and Ireland. It's a tried and trusted path.

I'm not really following what you are complaining about. The man created a business and sold it for €72,000,000. He clearly does know what he is doing and is incredibly successful.

noodler

150,000 employed by multinationals.

maninasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not really following what you are complaining about. The man created a business and sold it for €72,000,000. He clearly does know what he is doing and is incredibly successful.

Any of Teelings businesses I have come across have been a bigger version of the usual Irish/British story , buy up some small but quality companies , stick a few of them together and rationalize them ,get them pumping out a bit of cash profit, then sell 'em on the big boys in the US . Pay day. None of it is really about building a business to own for the long term.

To me being successful is not only about getting a big pay check. I understand that there are different views on this.

I think Irish whiskey is a goldmine waiting to happen, and it was a BIG mistake financially to sell these premium heritage brands which could be worth a billion in the relatively near future. Why sell just on the cusp? He doesn't want to wait that long, okay. But I always hate to see the big multinationals grabbing real heritage businesses and corporatising them and turning them into 'just another brand in their stable'.

You'll get all the honchos from the US and overseas controlling the direction of Irish whiskey and sucking the profits.

At least the Guinness family were actually Irish and they did invest and contribute a lot to Dublin

gaius c

Plain lazy maninasia. Your entire post got Fisked and debunked but you run away and prefer to respond to a one liner instead.

maninasia

I simply don't have the time or motivation to get into an argument over the whiskey industry in Ireland, I'll just put my views forward, and you can do likewise. People can judge themselves rather than derailing the whole thread.

I will quote this bit which seems illogical

Irish whiskey sales are increasing dramatically in the US and it's the tipple of choice for the younger generation as "Scotch" is increasingly seen as old-fashioned and boring.

So why sell-out now when the party is getting going? There's a curve to acceptance of products in the market, and it looks like they might be going exponential, and they haven't even done anything in the East. Steal of the century for Beam eh?

EDIT- There's always a subtext to every story...good for him and I hope the brothers make it a success and don't sell out for a hundred years .

http://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2013/06/stephen-teeling-leaves-beam-for-teeling-whiskey-co/