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Something needs to be done about nightclub groping

12467…14

Comments

  • #92
    cantdecide
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,363 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Neeson wrote: »
    ...isn't really fair.

    It's not fair when you plan to be the villain in the story but it blows up in your face? You live by the sword, you die by the sword, IMO. If your sister had been the lady in the story, you can be sure where you'd stand.


  • #93
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    cantdecide wrote: »
    It's not fair when you plan to be the villain in the story but it blows up in your face? You live by the sword, you die by the sword, IMO. If your sister had been the lady in the story, you can be sure where you'd stand.

    Yes. But you have to feel for the family and the man who is left brain damaged. Somebody got griped and ill say this anyway knowing that someone in this place will jump down my thrust but you can get over and forget about someone groping you. You'll be stuck brain damaged.

    What I was saying is there is a right way to go about handling something.


  • #94
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Normal people who do scummy things when drunk would curb there drinking. Using the old "he's only hammered" is a cop out tbh. If he has a sister/girlfriend would he be happy if it happened to them? Same with everyone in the group. He does it because he can get away with it, and because he feels there isn't anything wrong with it. I don't think describing him as a scumbag harsh as all.

    Aye, not getting bollox faced with help alright. ;)

    I don't see how you think we let him away with it. I already said we put a stop to it when it's happening and at the very least some of us will tell him to cop on when he's sober.

    He knows it wrong, he understands why it is. But unfortunately reasoning goes out the window for some people when they're hammered. That's not an excuse, it's just the way it is. In an ideal world he would not get that hammered (not that he does that much anyway, it doesn't happen every week or even every month). We can only hope he grows up at some stage (still in his early 20s).

    TBH, I think it just comes down to respect (or a lack thereof) for a someone's personal space and boundaries. Again, that doesn't make him a scumbag, just immature. He's about to become a father so I'm sure that will help.
    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    I don't buy into this "different person" idea when people are drunk. I think you see the truest version of the vast majority of people, when they are drunk.

    The fact that it's been pointed out to him when he's sober and he continues doing it really shows his true colours.

    I always felt that's a slightly simplistic view. If a friend does something wrong while drunk, I don't see it as them showing their true colours: I see it as a combination of the drink, whatever mood someone might be in or whatever they might be going through a certain time.

    I mean I'm sure you've seen friends do messed up things when they've been drunk, do you hold it against them and decide right, that person has shown their true colours? If so, it seems a bit ludicrous to me that you'd take one negative instance over countless positive memories and decide that the former is who the person really is.


  • #95
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Neeson wrote: »
    Yeah. I suppose this little story might serve as warning to all the people thinking about hitting back hard!
    Most people actually don't have time to think how they should react. I don't agree with people saying you should do whatever. I slaped somebody before, it was completely instinctive reaction but other times I didn't do anything or just pushed the hand away. The slap was no more premeditated than any other reaction. I don't wish brain damage or any other injury on people but whatever it is the attacker can't be a victim.


  • #96
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Most people actually don't have time to think how they should react. I don't agree with people saying you should do whatever. I slaped somebody before, it was completely instinctive reaction but other times I didn't do anything or just pushed the hand away. The slap was no more premeditated than any other reaction. I don't wish brain damage or any other injury on people but whatever it is the attacker can't be a victim.


    It's a grey area I suppose. A bit like shooting people who come into your house and them taking a case against you.


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  • #97
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Originally Posted by meeeeh viewpost.gif
    No it's not. But it could be someone's instinctive reaction to push the guy/girl away. If you play with fire..

    If I gave a woman brain damage for grabbing my crotch, I'd feel like absolute crap for the rest of my life :(


  • #98
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    If I gave a woman brain damage for grabbing my crotch, I'd feel like absolute crap for the rest of my life :(

    Agree. Thats the point I was making.

    It seems some of these women go around thinking their bodies are temples. Woe betide anyone who touches them. If they touch me I have every right to kill them as long as I say I didn't mean it.


  • #99
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    It seems some of these women go around thinking their bodies are temples. Woe betide anyone who touches them. If they touch me I have every right to kill them as long as I say I didn't mean it.

    Every person's body is their own private temple :)


  • #100
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Every person's body is their own private temple :)

    This is true. I suppose.


  • #101
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    He knows it wrong, he understands why it is. But unfortunately reasoning goes out the window for some people when they're hammered. That's not an excuse, it's just the way it is. In an ideal world he would not get that hammered (not that he does that much anyway, it doesn't happen every week or even every month). We can only hope he grows up at some stage (still in his early 20s).

    He should give up drinking then if he cannot control himself while he is under the influence. He has an alcohol problem by the sounds of it so you should probably help him rather than humouring his behaviour.
    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    Again, that doesn't make him a scumbag, just immature. He's about to become a father so I'm sure that will help.

    If he has such disregard for people that he continues this behaviour that he knows is wrong then that is not immaturity.

    Has anyone ever reported a groper to the Gardai btw?


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  • #102
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Neeson wrote: »
    Agree. Thats the point I was making.

    It seems some of these women go around thinking their bodies are temples. Woe betide anyone who touches them. If they touch me I have every right to kill them as long as I say I didn't mean it.

    That's a bit reductive, don't you think?


  • #103
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    Aye, not getting bollox faced with help alright. ;)

    I don't see how you think we let him away with it. I already said we put a stop to it when it's happening and at the very least some of us will tell him to cop on when he's sober.

    He knows it wrong, he understands why it is. But unfortunately reasoning goes out the window for some people when they're hammered. That's not an excuse, it's just the way it is. In an ideal world he would not get that hammered (not that he does that much anyway, it doesn't happen every week or even every month). We can only hope he grows up at some stage (still in his early 20s).

    TBH, I think it just comes down to respect (or a lack thereof) for a someone's personal space and boundaries. Again, that doesn't make him a scumbag, just immature. He's about to become a father so I'm sure that will help.

    That's pretty much the definition of a scumbag. I know he's your friend, but making excuses for the guy is not something I can understand.

    I used to get aggressive on occasion when I drank. Nicest person in the world while sober, but I was harbouring some deep anger issues that you would never ascribe to me when I was sober. Consequently, I stopped drinking, because I don't buy into this theory that alcohol negates acting like an asshole. If anything, continuing to drink when your drunken behaviour impacts on others makes you a pretty big asshole.

    We all have choices. If the choice is to drink and invade people's personal space or not drink and have to miss out on some fun, it's truly selfish to choose your own fun at the cost of someone else's right to feel safe and enjoy themselves on a night out.


  • #104
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Neeson wrote: »
    Agree. Thats the point I was making.

    It seems some of these women go around thinking their bodies are temples. Woe betide anyone who touches them. If they touch me I have every right to kill them as long as I say I didn't mean it.
    I remember sitting in dark cinema when somebody started groping my breasts from behind. I tried to fob him off. He stopped and after a while it started again. But then he also started kissing my neck. I was trying to fob him off again and he wouldn't stop. In the end I smacked his hand with my umbrella hard enough that I heard sharp intake of breath and then he left. I don't know what he looked like, all I remember is stale smell of cigarettes. I don't care if I broke his hand or did any other damage. I was scared 13 years old at the time and too embarrassed to complain to anybody.

    So don't bull**** me with 'my body is a temple' line. Just because I don't have brain damage to show it doesn't mean that different assaults (and one was much worse) didn't leave a scar on me. I wouldn't want to cause brain damage to anybody but I refuse to feel guilty for defending myself. Considering your response there are people who would think I'm just a frigid idiot anyway.


  • #105
    Rayne Wooney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,134 ✭✭✭✭Rayne Wooney


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I remember sitting in dark cinema when somebody started groping my breasts from behind. I tried to fob him off. He stopped and after a while it started again. But then he also started kissing my neck. I was trying to fob him off and he wouldn't stop. In the end I smacked his hand with my umbrella hard enough that I heard sharp intake of breath and then he left. I don't know what he looked like, all I remember is stale smell of cigarettes. I don't care if I broke his hand or did any other damage. I was scared 13 years old at the time and too embarrassed to complain to anybody.


    What the hell.

    That is seriously shocking, in a cinema? That's definitely something you should have told the cinema and then the guards. In a club with adults consuming a lot of alcohol in a playful atmosphere is one thing, but an underage child being sexually harassed in a cinema is truly appalling.


  • #106
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I remember sitting in dark cinema when somebody started groping my breasts from behind. I tried to fob him off. He stopped and after a while it started again. But then he also started kissing my neck. I was trying to fob him off and he wouldn't stop. In the end I smacked his hand with my umbrella hard enough that I heard sharp intake of breath and then he left. I don't know what he looked like, all I remember is stale smell of cigarettes. I don't care if I broke his hand or did any other damage. I was scared 13 years old at the time and too embarrassed to complain to anybody.

    So don't bull**** me with 'my body is a temple' line. Just because I don't have brain damage to show it doesn't mean that different assaults (and one was much worse) didn't leave a scar on me. I wouldn't want to cause brain damage to anybody but I refuse to feel guilty for defending myself. Considering your response there are people who would think I'm just a frigid idiot anyway.


    You smacked his hand. He might have broken it at most. There's a big difference between that and pushing someone who isn't steady on their feet. If you're going to push them about with force you could argue you are just as bad as them.

    But you just hit his hand which isn't so bad. I just can't understand how someone could go on thinking they left someone brain damaged and not feel very bad about it.


  • #107
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Rayne Wooney wrote: »
    What the hell.

    That is seriously shocking, in a cinema? That's definitely something you should have told the cinema and then the guards. In a club with adults consuming a lot of alcohol in a playful atmosphere is one thing, but an underage child being sexually harassed in a cinema is truly appalling.
    I was there with friends and at 12 or 13 I was just glad he was gone. I'm not particularly sensitive but I'm just one of those average looking girls who nobody is intimidated by. There was one much worse incident and some that scared me more. It's just tiring and humiliating and I'm far from being sensitive about those issues and I also laughed away some drunken gropes. But in the same way as I hate people looking for a fight I hate the idiots that think people are a fair game for anything. And I'm not gender specific here because girls can be just as bad.


  • #108
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Neeson wrote: »
    But you just hit his hand which isn't so bad. I just can't understand how someone could go on thinking they left someone brain damaged and not feel very bad about it.
    Oh thank you I'm relieved you think I was not so bad.

    I'm sure no sane person wants to cause brain damage. And probably wishes it wouldn't happen but that man is not a victim, he is the one that attacked first. Oh and surprisingly enough nobody gropes 8 foot high muscular bouncers. It's always those that look innocent enough that they won't do anything.


  • #109
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Oh thank you I'm relieved you think I was not so bad.

    I'm sure no sane person wants to cause brain damage. And probably wishes it wouldn't happen but that man is not a victim, he is the one that attacked first.

    But he becomes a victim if you do something to him. So perhaps the best things would be to take a different approach. I'm not sure what that is though.


  • #110
    blacklilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    I've been grouped so many time but one particular time sticks out.
    I remember 2 years ago for my birthday I was out with a group of friends, I was ordering drinks at the bar and this guy who was standing right beside me grabbed my breasts, not a little weak grab, I'm talking full on grab (it actually hurt) for the first 2 seconds I was in total shock but luckily for me I had a group of male friends right beside me (including my brother) and when they all stood up to him he looked absolutely terrified. They said some pretty strong words to him and he actually left the bar. I also had a few words with him and told him that he was lucky I wasn't the violent type and asked if he thought what he did was amusing and to maybe think how he'd feel if someone did that to his sister/mother.
    I was very upset from it and felt violated by his actions.


  • #111
    ToxicPaddy
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    An ex of mine who is fairly petite told me a few years ago that she was working her way through a crowd in a club and was wearing a short loose skirt, suddely she left a hand come under the skirt and down inside the front of her underwear.. she grabbed the hand and whoever it was pulled it away fast.

    I was shocked and asked her about it, she just shrugged, laughed and said it was a bit of fun.. thought nothing more of it. :confused:

    That really shocked me as have some of the stories here. I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding a place where something like that has happened.

    I worked in bars for over 8 years through school and college and rarely did we hear any complaints from girls about being groped, but if we did, action was taken immediately and a few guys were banned from the places as a result.

    I'm really surprised with the attitude of some bouncers when incidents like this are reported too. :mad:


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  • #112
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    ToxicPaddy wrote: »
    I'm really surprised with the attitude of some bouncers when incidents like this are reported too. :mad:

    I think the problem is if they don't see it themselves they can't do anything about it. If someone is groped they don't always see who did it. Most places this happens are packed. You can spin around and see someone you think did it. But if a bouncer accuses someone in a busy place they could get in real trouble if they accuse the wrong person. Even if they have video of the place (which some of the bigger places do) they still might not be able to see anything.


  • #113
    ToxicPaddy
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    I think the problem is if they don't see it themselves they can't do anything about it. If someone is groped they don't always see who did it. Most places this happens are packed. You can spin around and see someone you think did it. But if a bouncer accuses someone in a busy place they could get in real trouble if they accuse the wrong person. Even if they have video of the place (which some of the bigger places do) they still might not be able to see anything.

    Oh I do understand that however a number of posters here have caught the gropers and even then the bouncers did nothing.. Not acceptable imo


  • #114
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Neeson wrote: »
    Yeah but if she defended herself by causing him to fall down concrete steps and end up brain damaged that might be a bit too aggressive.

    How could you live with yourself after doing that? I know someone might have been fondling you but turning someone else into a brain damaged man isn't really fair.
    Neeson wrote: »
    Agree. Thats the point I was making.

    It seems some of these women go around thinking their bodies are temples. Woe betide anyone who touches them. If they touch me I have every right to kill them as long as I say I didn't mean it.
    I would feel no worse for what happened to him than I would if I was defending myself against a mugger and they fell and hit their heads. His own actions brought it on him, and the woman did nothing but instinctively protect herself. I would feel bad that it happened, but I would not blame myself for it in any way, and neither should she. If it was your sister would you feel the same?

    Frankly, you seem to have a slightly worrying attitude toward women. Your second post quoted above seems to imply that you feel you should be entitled to touch women whether they want you to or not, and the fact that you seem to think that the woman mentioned above should be unable to live with herself for the consequences of defending herself from someone who, for all she knew, was a bona fide rapist. I'm sure you didn't mean to come across like that, but if you were a man in my social group I'd be advising you to think about how you view women.


  • #115
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    kylith wrote: »
    I would feel no worse for what happened to him than I would if I was defending myself against a mugger and they fell and hit their heads. His own actions brought it on him, and the woman did nothing but instinctively protect herself. I would feel bad that it happened, but I would not blame myself for it in any way, and neither should she. If it was your sister would you feel the same?

    Frankly, you seem to have a slightly worrying attitude toward women. Your second post quoted above seems to imply that you feel you should be entitled to touch women whether they want you to or not, and the fact that you seem to think that the woman mentioned above should be unable to live with herself for the consequences of defending herself from someone who, for all she knew, was a bona fide rapist. I'm sure you didn't mean to come across like that, but if you were a man in my social group I'd be advising you to think about how you view women.

    True for you. I was saying that we shouldn't be hurting anyone.


  • #116
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,744 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    No, we shouldn't be hurting anyone, but if someone accidentally injures their attacker whilst defending themselves then they should not be held liable for that, nor made to feel responsible.


  • #117
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    kylith wrote: »
    No, we shouldn't be hurting anyone, but if someone accidentally injures their attacker whilst defending themselves then they should not be held liable for that, nor made to feel responsible.


    Yes. You would be responsible if you did it though, whether or not they touched you doesn't mean you do something as drastic as that in return. Neither action is nice but we can't all go around abusing one another. Anyway this logic seems to be lost on some. Obviously you'd be angry with the groping but there's a right way to deal with it or a better way I suppose. It's difficult to know what that is when no one seems to listen to your complaints.


  • #118
    rox5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭rox5


    Neeson wrote: »
    Yeah but if she defended herself by causing him to fall down concrete steps and end up brain damaged that might be a bit too aggressive.

    How could you live with yourself after doing that? I know someone might have been fondling you but turning someone else into a brain damaged man isn't really fair.

    Becoming brain damaged is fairly bad, but to be honest he had it coming. Sooner or later, this guy was going to have some bad incident from haressing women, like maybe getting beaten up by a girl's boyfriend, for example, or beaten up by a girl, I know real tough girls who have no problem beating the c**p out of a guy if he steps out of line.

    Anyway for all we know this guy could become a rapist or abuser sooner or late if he has a history of haressing women, so if that was the case, the girl probably did the world a favour by accidently pushing him down the stairs.


  • #119
    Neeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭Neeson


    rox5 wrote: »
    Becoming brain damaged is fairly bad, but to be honest he had it coming. Sooner or later, this guy was going to have some bad incident from haressing women, like maybe getting beaten up by a girl's boyfriend, for example, or beaten up by a girl, I know real tough girls who have no problem beating the c**p out of a guy if he steps out of line.

    Anyway for all we know this guy could become a rapist or abuser sooner or late if he has a history of haressing women, so if that was the case, the girl probably did the world a favour by accidently pushing him down the stairs.

    Ok so.


  • #120
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Anyway for all we know this guy could become a rapist or abuser sooner or late if he has a history of haressing women, so if that was the case, the girl probably did the world a favour by accidently pushing him down the stairs.

    I can't believe I'm defending someone that gropes people on a night out, but groping a person does not automatically lead to rape or abuse.

    I think it's a normal human reaction to feel bad for injuring someone...


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  • #121
    cantdecide
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,363 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Any suggestions as to what can and should be done by the individuals and the establishments involved?


This discussion has been closed.
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