Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

starling · 28-05-2013 10:32AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The poster in question feels it was hugging with ulterior motives, I certainly was not there and have no uterus.]]

Yes so as I said we agree that it was essentially groping, so why is it the victim's responsibility to tell him beforehand "Don't sneak up behind me and grab me." Why shouldn't the onus be on him to behave himself?

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I will if she's my friend or acquaintance, as in this case they know one another.

It's not okay just because they know each other, my point - which you're still evading - is that people can't excuse bad behaviour by saying "Well, you didn't tell me not to grab you for an unwelcome back hug!"

kiffer · 28-05-2013 10:32AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Read the story again.

The guy was talking almost exclusively to her friend, she was barely involved in the conversation.

Once he had her number, he immediately checked to see if it was real. If it had not been, the situation would have been at best embarassing, and at worst the guy could have gotten pissed off at being lied to.

Also it sounds like the guy didn't bother to test the number of the guy he was actually talking to - a bit odd if his concern was to check there were no mistakes in the phone numbers he'd just gotten, don't you think?

He never called the person he'd actually been talking to, the person he'd specifically asked about social activities; only the girl he barely interacted with, calling repeatedly over the course of a week even though he got no response at all.

In work, posting from my phone and I have limited time to reply.
I agree that the repeatedly calling was creepy, I disagree that asking for her number was out of line, and ringing the person to give them your number is pretty standard. Sorry.
Also even if he was talking to her friend more than her, he was still talking to her.
Asking for her number was not unreasonable, nor would it have been unreasonable for her to refuse to give it... believe me if he was blase about asking he's used to getting a 'nope'.

Rosy Posy · 28-05-2013 10:35AM

bacon n eggs wrote: »

How do you know they were lying? were you there, in the same vein I don't know if they were or were not, always going to be one word against another.

This is why it's so hard to get a rape conviction, which is one of the reasons so many rapes go unreported.

Cork24 · 28-05-2013 10:36AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Seriously, you're some pillock to come out with a statement like that.

pillock... Your the one getting on the High F**king horse...

the girl was up for it. Girls would be up for anything when it comes to soccer players in the last 10 years we had a number of rape case's that were not true and the court ruled it not rape...

& You have it all Soccer Players... so if you ask me the Girl was up for it, though she make some Money Selling the Story to WOW or NOW but in the end she couldn't face it, or that she found out the lads where Division 2 Players not worth a penny.

mod: banned.

kiffer · 28-05-2013 10:43AM

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I'm coming round to the thought that there is a problem with the term rape culture in that it makes many people defensive, and so I think that it needs better definition.

You're only coming around to this now? That's interesting, because when I've seen people say 'rape culture' is a bad term that makes men defensive and doesn't help the situation they get told off for being rape apologists...

B0jangles · 28-05-2013 10:43AM

On false rape accusations:

http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

They are a terrible, horrible crime that destroy the lives of the accused. But thankfully they are rare.

Rosy Posy · 28-05-2013 10:46AM

kiffer wrote: »

In work, posting from my phone and I have limited time to reply.
I agree that the repeatedly calling was creepy, I disagree that asking for her number was out of line, and ringing the person to give them your number is pretty standard. Sorry.
Also even if he was talking to her friend more than her, he was still talking to her.
Asking for her number was not unreasonable, nor would it have been unreasonable for her to refuse to give it... believe me if he was blase about asking he's used to getting a 'nope'.

I think that part of the cultural change that needs to happen around gender and sexuality is empowering women (and men but I think in Ireland this is a particularly female problem due to our patriarchal heritage) to actually say what they mean. There's too much emphasis placed on being a good polite girl and not causing offence. If people could be counted on to be honest and forthright about their feelings and boundaries then it would be much easier for them to be acknowledged and respected. I think that a paradigm shift needs to take place and hopefully discussions like this, as well as sensitive and respectful youth education will help to bring this about.

PucaMama · 28-05-2013 10:47AM

Cork24 wrote: »

pillock... Your the one getting on the High F**king horse...

the girl was up for it. Girls would be up for anything when it comes to soccer players in the last 10 years we had a number of rape case's that were not true and the court ruled it not rape...

& You have it all Soccer Players... so if you ask me the Girl was up for it, though she make some Money Selling the Story to WOW or NOW but in the end she couldn't face it, or that she found out the lads where Division 2 Players not worth a penny.

any proof of that :rolleyes: and why do men always call us "GIRLS" when being disrespectfull.

Cody Pomeray · 28-05-2013 10:47AM

starling wrote: »

Yes so as I said we agree that it was essentially groping

Oh no, not at all. Not having a uterus, much less one with psychic abilities, I really can't comment on what happened.

It's not okay just because they know each other, my point - which you're still evading - is that people can't excuse bad behaviour by saying "Well, you didn't tell me not to grab you for an unwelcome back hug!"

I'm not evading it, it's just that I would see unplanned hugs as a normal part of friendship. Maybe some friends co-ordinate their hugs on prior agreement, I was not aware of that fact.

Cork24 · 28-05-2013 10:53AM

PucaMama wrote: »

any proof of that :rolleyes: and why do men always call us "GIRLS" when being disrespectfull.

my god its not being disrespectful by calling you Girls

any proof of what ? have you lot got any proof it was ?

so out of all they guys you bedded, was their any one that you didn't feel great after ? and did that lead you out to report a rape if you felt bad the next day,

Crooked Jack · 28-05-2013 10:57AM

This thread has really depressed me. I can only hope that some of the people speaking here are only representative of themselves and not a wider view among people.

To suggest that anything that isnt rape, is rape, trivialises a very serious crime and frankly, belittles and insults the victims of that crime.

To call a hug between friends, whether one friend wants it or not, "forced sexual assault" similarly trivialises and makes a mockery of actual sexual assault.

To suggest that noone, "no matter how well they know you" should touch you without expressed prior consent is one of the saddest things I've ever heard and if adopted by the general public would lead to a cold and stand-offish world. The idea that a friend would have to ask before extending a consoling hand or a welcoming hug depresses me.

While I agree that it's a fine principal that people should be able to walk anywhere, drink as much as they like and hang out with whoever takes their fancy, that is sadly not the world we live in and I'm frankly disgusted by the reaction some posters have gotten for suggesting people take an interest in their own personal safety. Suggesting that somebody take a few precautions against a crime, whether it's the most prevalent version of that crime or not, is not victim blaming.

Id suggest that women also take a look at their attitudes to other women. The term slut-shaming came up but was quickly dropped when I suggested I've only ever heard women refer to other women as "sluts."

Rape culture is a ridiculous term to use in Ireland, especially when you are told that it extends to things well beyond what could be constituted as rape, or sexual assault, or groping or anything that any reasonable person would consider wrong.
Once again, it trivialises a serious issue and belittles actual victims of rape. A side effect of it is that it seems to create some other cultures that actually do exist. When it was explained in detail what was meant by "rape culture" the parameters were so ridiculous that some posters came on to have a go at feminism for being so prudish and precious. In this instance the term rape culture seems to lead to a culture of misunderstanding and even anger towards feminism.
We've heard from other posters who are now questioning their own perfectly normal behaviour when it comes to greeting friends. In this instance the term leads to a culture of paranoia and fear, much like the one surrounding paedophilia. (Anyone who saw the documentary where they left a child actor alone and crying in a shopping centre with the adults visibly afraid to approach or touch the child will know what I mean.)

This thread has depressed me beyond belief and with the claims as to what constitutes rape or sexual assault getting more and more ridiculous I intend to bow out of it now before it further ruins my day.

I'll simply end by saying to the people who hold these views that I'm sorry for whatever happened you to make you view physical contact with other people like this. Im sure, if the full facts about your experiences were known, that your views would be entirely understandable. I'd also suggest however, and I'm well aware that it's easy for me to say this, something different entirely for you to do it, but i'd suggest that you dont let these experiences stain all human contact for you.

Cork24 · 28-05-2013 10:57AM

This Thread is going No Where,

we have a bampot talking about her friend Mr lots o huggin bear

and some people so blind that they cant see the other point of this thread.

kiffer · 28-05-2013 10:58AM

People should definitely definitely be encouraged to report rapes.
By its nature it's often going to be tough to get a conviction as the accused should be considered innocent until proven guilty and with no witnessess it's word against word especially if the victim didn't get checked out medical after the rape.

A better report rate will result in more convictions which coupled with better education, and so on will l help bring down the rape rate.

Rape is a massive endemic problem... I know that my female friends have not reported the incidents that they have told me about... which horrifies me... it actually horrifies me.
Even more so because I know that it's the tip to iceberg.

dr.bollocko · 28-05-2013 10:59AM

Cork24 banned.

kunst nugget · 28-05-2013 11:00AM

Cork24 wrote: »

pillock... Your the one getting on the High F**king horse...

the girl was up for it. Girls would be up for anything when it comes to soccer players in the last 10 years we had a number of rape case's that were not true and the court ruled it not rape...

& You have it all Soccer Players... so if you ask me the Girl was up for it, though she make some Money Selling the Story to WOW or NOW but in the end she couldn't face it, or that she found out the lads where Division 2 Players not worth a penny.

You don't know she was up for it anymore than I know she wasn't.

You have an opinion formed on all women as being devious and manipulative and all of them are hoping to be gang banged by soccer players so that they can sell their story. And if they find out that the players are second division, naturally all women will shout rape as a way of getting revenge.

Do you think your sister thinks like that? Or your mother?

PucaMama · 28-05-2013 11:02AM

Cork24 wrote: »

my god its not being disrespectful by calling you Girls

any proof of what ? have you lot got any proof it was ?

so out of all they guys you bedded, was their any one that you didn't feel great after ? and did that lead you out to report a rape if you felt bad the next day,

all the guys i bedded? what do you think i am? a prostitute?

i asked for proof that girls will do anything for footballers

also, and its not just me who thinks this, calling a woman a girl is belittling and is often used by POA at a possible target. if you read any of their stuff any woman who is not seen as a target or who wont fall for their little games is a "woman" yet anywho do are "girls"

Obliq · 28-05-2013 11:07AM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Cork24 banned.

Nice one. In there before I hit post on my report as well

wonderfulname · 28-05-2013 11:09AM

I really don't get this focus on false allegations, it's disingenuous and all but statistically insignificant.

The Guardian, relating to the Crown Prosicution Service across the water;

...there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence in England and Wales.

By comparison, over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, six for false allegations of domestic violence and three that involved false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

"Victims of rape and domestic violence must not be deterred from reporting the abuse they have suffered," Starmer says in the foreword to the report. "We have worked hard to dispel the damaging myths and stereotypes which are associated with these cases.

"One such misplaced belief is that false allegations of rape and domestic violence are rife."

5,651 prosecutions for rape, 35 for false allegations (am I crazy or is that 0.6%?), in a country where 54,000 incidents of sexual assault are reported to police every year, and an estimated 473,000 take place every year.

But wait, there's more;

Of 159 suspects linked to allegedly false claims referred to the CPS between January 2011 and May 2012, 92% were women. Nearly half of them were 21 or under. One surprise was that in 38% of those investigations, the initial complaint of rape or domestic violence was made by someone other than the suspect. Among those under 18 it was 50% and often involved a parent.

"It was a feature of these cases that the suspect later reported that the whole thing had spiralled out of control and he or she had felt unable to stop the investigation," the CPS report says.

When you look into it, malicious intent doesn't factor in a large percentage of that teeny tiny percentage of rape allegations which prove false, and mental heath issues cover a large % of the remainder.

Why the **** do people talk about this as though it matters? It's incredibly harmful to rape victims, insulting to women in general and just plain stupid if I'm completely honest.

Full Report (Which, by the way, was comissioned after a woman was falsely convicted for falsely accusing a man of rape, we could go around in circles with this)

kunst nugget · 28-05-2013 11:23AM

wonderfulname wrote: »

I really don't get this focus on false allegations, it's disingenuous and all but statistically insignificant.

I think the reason that it probably gets more coverage than it should is that it would be considered by many men to be one of their greatest fears. It's like not helping out a child for fear of being branded a paedophile.
http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2010/08/03/half-of-men-wouldnt-help-a-child-for-fear-of-being-branded-a/

professore · 28-05-2013 11:31AM

Smidge wrote: »

^
+1

It's like the phrase "Wrong place, wrong time" is used sympathetically when an innocent victim is murdered.

But when it's a rape..............

"Shure what could you expect, walking down that way by herself"

Not true ... people would also rightly think that if you are murdered - or robbed - down a dark alleyway at 2 AM - male or female. I would have sympathy for the victim in all cases, it doesn't somehow excuse the perpetrator's actions, but let's face it, in any society there is a fair share of murderers, rapists and thieves.

wonderfulname · 28-05-2013 11:34AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I think the reason that it probably gets more coverage than it should is that it would be considered by many men to be one of their greatest fears. It's like not helping out a child for fear of being branded a paedophile.
http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2010/08/03/half-of-men-wouldnt-help-a-child-for-fear-of-being-branded-a/

I appreciate that, but it's not valid, and it deserves to be challenged, men shouldn't feel they have to feel this, women shouldn't be typecast as devious and underhanded, and victims shouldn't be afraid of reaching out in case they're accused of being so.

Cody Pomeray · 28-05-2013 11:38AM

professore wrote: »

Not true ... people would also rightly think that if you are murdered - or robbed - down a dark alleyway at 2 AM - male or female. I would have sympathy for the victim in all cases, it doesn't somehow excuse the perpetrator's actions, but let's face it, in any society there is a fair share of murderers, rapists and thieves.

__________________
Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel.

most appropriate sig ever.

kunst nugget · 28-05-2013 11:43AM

wonderfulname wrote: »

I appreciate that, but it's not valid, and it deserves to be challenged, men shouldn't feel they have to feel this, women shouldn't be typecast as devious and underhanded, and victims shouldn't be afraid of reaching out in case they're accused of being so.

Obviously men shouldn't have to feel this way and I don't think the view men have is that all women are inherently devious but look at the back and forth on here about hugging and that would be enough to make men fear that an action that was innocent on their part might be misconstrued as inappropriate.

Discussions like this can be helpful for people to see both sides and maybe reflect on how they interact with the opposite sex but tbh the raking over of pointless minutiae means that people stop seeing the wood for the trees.

leggo · 28-05-2013 11:47AM

This thread is turning farcical.

An accusation of sexual assault is a serious matter. It is not a weapon that women can use against men because they're too passive-aggressive to state their boundaries.

Thus far a hug between friends has been blatantly called sexual assault, and now a woman who knowingly gave her number to a guy is likening him to a sexual predator for having the cheek to use it.

If people wish to educate themselves, feel free to contact the rape crisis centre and ask them if either of the above constitute sexual assault. Even if people have been unfortunate to fall victim to serious sexual crimes, it doesn't automatically make them an expert on the matter and, yes, they can still remain woefully ignorant in spite of their experiences. If you seriously believe that a man can be charged for sexual assault for hugging someone, please don't derail this thread any further and educate yourself before coming back. Your ability to throw around an accusation as serious as that without the full facts is, frankly, worrying.

wonderfulname · 28-05-2013 11:57AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Discussions like this can be helpful for people to see both sides and maybe reflect on how they interact with the opposite sex but tbh the raking over of pointless minutiae means that people stop seeing the wood for the trees.

Honestly I think the moral of the story, if there is one, is that people should be more proactive, and communicative with regard sex and sexual contact. I'm quite taken aback by how passive and uncomfortable some posters here seem to be, I'm still incredibly baffled by an earlier question as to how one initiates sex without accidentally assaulting someone...

28-05-2013 12:00PM

leggo wrote: »

This thread is turning farcical.

An accusation of sexual assault is a serious matter. It is not a weapon that women can use against men because they're too passive-aggressive to state their boundaries.

Passive aggressive is an interesting term considering it was your story describing actions you called creepy and refuse to do anything about

It's interesting that women are once again getting the blame for not "setting boundaries", when earlier women were castigated for having a problem with being groped and having unwelcome contact forced on them.
And then people wonder why women don't speak up to say "I have a problem with this"

hatrickpatrick · 28-05-2013 12:00PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Thread title should be changed to 'Is a hug always a hug?'

This post easily wins the thread

hatrickpatrick · 28-05-2013 12:13PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This thread has really depressed me. I can only hope that some of the people speaking here are only representative of themselves and not a wider view among people.

Don't worry, this isn't merely true of this thread but of Boards in general. If Boards truly reflected society's views the world would be completely f*cked.

To suggest that anything that isnt rape, is rape, trivialises a very serious crime and frankly, belittles and insults the victims of that crime.

This.

To call a hug between friends, whether one friend wants it or not, "forced sexual assault" similarly trivialises and makes a mockery of actual sexual assault.

To suggest that noone, "no matter how well they know you" should touch you without expressed prior consent is one of the saddest things I've ever heard and if adopted by the general public would lead to a cold and stand-offish world. The idea that a friend would have to ask before extending a consoling hand or a welcoming hug depresses me.

To be fair this particular argument was mainly coming from Millie, and no offense to her whatsoever but her attitude to it is extremely rare and unusual. Still waiting for an answer from her actually about how any guy would be able to hit on her without offending her, based on her posts here it seems downright impossible and if everyone had the same views as her the human race would never reproduce and we'd all be extinct.

Having said all that, it is indeed a bitterly depressing thread, as these threads always are. The fact is, however much people might try to avoid it, that for a lot of women (not all, a lot) the difference between a guy being labelled "creepy" or "cute/romantic" by his forwardness and actions is whether or not she's attracted to him, which he has absolutely no way of knowing before he tries it on.

I mean look, you have so many people in this thread saying that guys should take a hint of not being interested as an answer and feck off, which is one view, but then look at the multitude of other girls who deliberately play hard to get because they want to be chased, and get upset on forums like this because "Why isn't he coming after me after I pretended to reject him?" (Not kidding, this isn't even a quote from Boards it's one of my girl friends, who doesn't seem to understand that constantly ignoring a guy's texts and blowing him off isn't a way to get him, it's a way to make him lose interest).

Problem here? That same guy, if she didn't happen to like him, would be "creepy" if he kept trying after all that. And because, as evidence by this thread, so many women don't want to be up front and direct about these things, guys must continue to fly blind.

How would you suggest a guy psychically tells the difference? When you have one girl saying "why won't he take the hint that I'm not interested" and then you have another saying "I'm ignoring him so he'll want me more and chase me", where the hell does that leave the poor lad who likes a girl and is just trying to see if anything could happen between them?

silentrust · 28-05-2013 12:15PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

I really don't get this focus on false allegations, it's disingenuous and all but statistically insignificant.

The Guardian, relating to the Crown Prosicution Service across the water;

5,651 prosecutions for rape, 35 for false allegations (am I crazy or is that 0.6%?), in a country where 54,000 incidents of sexual assault are reported to police every year, and an estimated 473,000 take place every year.

But wait, there's more; When you look into it, malicious intent doesn't factor in a large percentage of that teeny tiny percentage of rape allegations which prove false, and mental heath issues cover a large % of the remainder.

Why the **** do people talk about this as though it matters? It's incredibly harmful to rape victims, insulting to women in general and just plain stupid if I'm completely honest.

Full Report (Which, by the way, was comissioned after a woman was falsely convicted for falsely accusing a man of rape, we could go around in circles with this)

I'm afraid you're guilty of the Prosecutor's fallacy here -35 convictions for false allegations does not mean there were no more than 35, any more than 5,651 rape convictions means that there could have been no more than this.

I am a member of FACT (Falsely Accused Carers and Teachers), who in the twenty years they have been operational have helped to exonerate over 12,500 people falsely accused of rape and other forms of assault.

Note, these aren't people where there has been insufficient evidence to secure a conviction - the figure of 12,500 is where a person's innocence has been established beyond reasonable doubt e.g if it can be proven the accused was elsewhere at the time the accuser states they were victimised.

The reason we talk about false allegations is that they're very real and children in particular are naturally precocious and less likely to take responsibility for their actions.

Sometimes they lie about being assaulted as a bizarre way of expressing affection towards the accused, who may have rebuffed their advances previously.

Sometimes it is to draw attention to some very real abuse in their life e.g from a relative as they don't feel able to name the abuser themselves.

At other times it's simply a hysterical overreaction - in one case a colleague of mine attempted to pat a girl on the shoulder but she walked forward and his hand accidentally brushed her left breast and she falsely claimed it was a deliberate assault. Fortunately CCTV footage exonerated my colleague on that occasion but he quit teaching shortly afterwards because of all the hassle.

silentrust · 28-05-2013 12:20PM

leggo wrote: »

This thread is turning farcical.

An accusation of sexual assault is a serious matter. It is not a weapon that women can use against men because they're too passive-aggressive to state their boundaries.

Thus far a hug between friends has been blatantly called sexual assault, and now a woman who knowingly gave her number to a guy is likening him to a sexual predator for having the cheek to use it.

If people wish to educate themselves, feel free to contact the rape crisis centre and ask them if either of the above constitute sexual assault. Even if people have been unfortunate to fall victim to serious sexual crimes, it doesn't automatically make them an expert on the matter and, yes, they can still remain woefully ignorant in spite of their experiences. If you seriously believe that a man can be charged for sexual assault for hugging someone, please don't derail this thread any further and educate yourself before coming back. Your ability to throw around an accusation as serious as that without the full facts is, frankly, worrying.

Well said leggo - it's important not to undermine the seriousness of a crime like rape by likening other harmless activities like someone calling your cellphone to it.

I am with wonderfulname on this - people do need to be more proactive in making their boundaries clear as well as making it clear when they welcome someone else's attentions.

I have had the dubious pleasure of being approached several time by gay men who were clearly interested (I seem to have set off their Gaydar due to the fact I like theatre and musicals!) and each time I politely explained I wasn't interested - is it really too much to ask women to do the same and not try and not consider every man who does this as a potential rapist?

Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

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