Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

TheLastMohican

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html

Nabber

No means no. Don't stop and it's rape.

Quite simple if you ask me.

Nodin

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html

Medieval bollocks.

MickFleetwood

delete

humbert

If I had to guess I'd say there was some publicity seeking trolling going on.

SB2013

There are definitely inequalities in the law and in attitudes too but I don't think you can go writing of rapes as misunderstandings.

Really OP? Is this the best idea for a thread you could come up with?

No? Or did you really mean yes?

kingcobra

The only time rape is not rape is when it is not rape.

fred funk }{

Mother of fooking god, not another rape thread.

The Backwards Man

If I go into the bank tomorrow and there is a bag of money on the floor, I still know it is wrong to take it. Simple as.

Pherekydes

Not when it's legitimate rape.

jaffacakesyum

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html[/QUOTE]

Sad thing is, you're probably not even trolling.

Amirani

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If I go into the bank tomorrow and there is a bag of money on the floor, I still know it is wrong to take it. Simple as.

Yeah, absolutely. It's still 100% the fault of the perpetrator. It would be silly for a bank to put themselves in that situation though, just like it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

keelanj69

What no one seems to understand is that the body has ways of shutting down in cases of illegitimate rape. Or is it legitimate rape? I cant remember, the one where yur wan can't get pregnant.

Emz93

NiallSparky wrote: »

just like it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

Such as?

jaffacakesyum

NiallSparky wrote: »

Yeah, absolutely. It's still 100% the fault of the perpetrator. It would be silly for a bank to put themselves in that situation though, just like it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

More victim blaming. So I shouldn't be allowed to walk down the street in a dress or a skirt? Do I deserve to be raped because I didn't take "all appropriate precautions"?

Here's a suggestion - men and women be allowed wear whatever they want and men (and sometimes women) just stop raping people, hmm?

Seanafitz

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Has the pendulum swung too far? Is dressing provocatively giving the wrong message?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nick-ross-triggers-outrage-with-comments-on-rape-29297621.html

This entire post disgusts me ... Shame on you OP .. Rape is not a topic for debate .. If a man has sex with a woman and she has expressed her opinion that she does not want to ? That's rape ... If a man has sex with a woman who is in such a bad state that she is unable to say yes or no .. The man is taking advantage so it's rape ... I agree with a post before this ... Rape is only not rape when it's not rape .. I'm actually sick that this thread has been allowed ... How can you question whether its rape or not??

SB2013

Seanafitz wrote: »

This entire post disgusts me ... Shame on you OP .. Rape is not a topic for debate .. If a man has sex with a woman and she has expressed her opinion that she does not want to ? That's rape ... If a man has sex with a woman who is in such a bad state that she is unable to say yes or no .. The man is taking advantage so it's rape ... I agree with a post before this ... Rape is only not rape when it's not rape .. I'm actually sick that this thread has been allowed ... How can you question whether its rape or not??

What if both of them are in such a bad state?

Seanafitz

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

More victim blaming. So I shouldn't be allowed to walk down the street in a dress or a skirt? Do I deserve to be raped because I didn't take "all appropriate precautions"?

Here's a suggestion - men and women be allowed wear whatever they want and men (and sometimes women) just stop raping people, hmm?

I agree .. Woman should not be blamed for rape based on the clothes they wear ... Men walk around wit no tshirts and in shorts.. Am I allowed to rape them?

KKkitty

When I was 16 I went to celebrate my junior cert results with my classmates. Got talking to some lad and went outside the venue. He asked me for sex and I stupidly agreed. I wasn't long changing my mind and even though I asked him a few times to stop he didn't. To this day I don't know if I was raped or not. I was naive at the time.

Karl Stein

Mr Ross highlighted what he described as the “provocative way” women had been dressing in the West since the 1960s.

Bloody women with their boobs and stuff making men rape them.

It's a flippin disgrace. We're the victims here.

WE'RE THE GODDAMN VICTIMS.

KK, you changed your mind therefore, he had sex with you against your will.

Seanafitz

SB2013 wrote: »

What if both of them are in such a bad state?

Then the man could counter charge of rape .. Both charges would be reduced to indecent assault in the best of circumstances and they move on ... But honestly ... That's not what this post is about ? That news article .. Your man who ever he 'thinks' he is ... Has said basically that its time for change based on factors that are ridiculously outrageous that he Should be slated for being so insensitive about such a sensitive subject

jhegarty

Seanafitz wrote: »

Men walk around wit no tshirts and in shorts.. Am I allowed to rape them?

Under Irish law , yes you can. It wouldn't be rape.

Seanafitz

jhegarty wrote: »

Under Irish law , yes you can. It wouldn't be rape.

*slaps forehead in utter disappointment at the world*
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard

laoch na mona

SB2013 wrote: »

What if both of them are in such a bad state?

don't know about you but there is not many a man who is on the edge of consciousness that would be able to ahh 'perform'

jaffacakesyum

KKkitty wrote: »

When I was 16 I went to celebrate my junior cert results with my classmates. Got talking to some lad and went outside the venue. He asked me for sex and I stupidly agreed. I wasn't long changing my mind and even though I asked him a few times to stop he didn't. To this day I don't know if I was raped or not. I was naive at the time.

You asked him to stop, he refused. That is clearly rape. I'm sorry you went through it I know it can be confusing though - the human brain is a funny thing. I was a similar age to you when I was raped and it was a very confusing time afterwards.

KKkitty

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

KK, you changed your mind therefore, he had sex with you against your will.

Guess I didn't want to think I was raped. I didn't dress provocatively at the time but my naivety was at an all time high back then.

KK, Jaffacake, those two thanks I just gave you are really hugs.

Seanafitz

KKkitty wrote: »

Guess I didn't want to think I was raped. I didn't dress provocatively at the time but my naivety was at an all time high back then.

Dressing provocatively has nothing to do with it .. A man rapes a woman because he wants to have sex with her an she does not consent .. Not because he likes how her arse looks in a short skirt! While that is a factor in him wanting to have sex wit her its not the ultimate reason .. I'm sorry for what you went through kk but in my opinion you wer raped .. And any one who tries to say different is an ignorant pig that has that 'rape gene' in him/her ... I have very little hope left for the future of humanity at this point ..

SB2013

Seanafitz wrote: »

*slaps forehead in utter disappointment at the world*
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard

yet still true

laoch na mona wrote: »

don't know about you but there is not many a man who is on the edge of consciousness that would be able to ahh 'perform'

Google Viagra. You might get a surprise.

Basically the law views women as damsels or maidens. This attitude is quite common in Ireland. This may not seem like a bad thing but it effectively highlights women as the weaker sex which in my view is a bad thing.

efb

jhegarty wrote: »

Under Irish law , yes you can. It wouldn't be rape.

yes it would

http://www.rcni.ie/the-law.aspx

KKkitty

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

You asked him to stop, he refused. That is clearly rape. I'm sorry you went through it I know it can be confusing though - the human brain is a funny thing. I was a similar age to you when I was raped and it was a very confusing time afterwards.

I'm really sorry you went through it too For years after it I blamed myself and was self destructive with alcohol and honestly not caring what happened to me.

Links234

NiallSparky wrote: »

just like it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

no, you know what? **** this attitude and **** everything about it

when someone's taking 'precautions against being raped' what they're doing is saying "please rape someone else"

SB2013

efb wrote: »

yes it would

http://www.rcni.ie/the-law.aspx

No it wouldn't. A woman cannot rape a man through sexual intercourse. Section 4 rape covers the use of an object.

leggo

If she says no, it's rape. There's no wiggle room there.

However, indulge me for a second. I remember one girl I knew in school. She was an awful attention seeker; would basically do or say anything to get lads ogling her. She'd even actively encourage people to feel her up at times. (It was around this stage that I got a bit creeped out by that group of friends and moved onto another one)

Once, a lad she didn't like joined in on the action and she flipped at him. Seeing it happen, I couldn't help but feel the lad was a bit hard done by. Of course it should've never been an option for him (or others), but there was no real barrier to entry, no process for her to give or remove consent...since she appeared to pretty much let any lad have a feel (and they did...being horny teenagers, some of whom probably hadn't ever felt a breast for any prolonged period). The situation didn't escalate, quite cruelly the lad was shamed in front of the whole group and thus probably began a long struggle with the opposite sex afterwards.

The reality of the situation was that she should've drawn her own barriers. Her need for attention from the opposite sex was such that sometimes it drew the kind of attention she didn't want. That's the reality, I saw it happen.

So yes, rape is always rape, and there's no excuse for any man who crosses that line. However, I think it's also worth adding to the conversation that women can inadvertently make themselves targets for the attention of these psychopathic creeps.

That isn't to say they 'deserve it' or 'brought it on themselves'...nobody deserves to suffer a crime so grave. And I'd also fully believe that the vast, VAST majority of the time how the woman dressed or acted had nothing to do with what later happened. But there is a small amount of nuance that I think exists within this argument, and we'd be fools not to acknowledge it.

Seanafitz

jhegarty wrote: »

Under Irish law , yes you can. It wouldn't be rape.

Actually I want to delve into this more .. Are you telling me .. I can see a nice looking man in a pair of short wit no tshirts on . Hold him down and force him to have sex wit me and then when he tries to get me charged the Garda are going to tell him he hasn't a case because he was walking around with no top on ??? That Irish laws allow for sexual assaults and rapes on men that have no tshirt ?

*slaps head again in pure desperation at the tought of this ridiculous notion

SB2013

Seanafitz wrote: »

Actually I want to delve into this more .. Are you telling me .. I can see a nice looking man in a pair of short wit no tshirts on . Hold him down and force him to have sex wit me and then when he tries to get me charged the Garda are going to tell him he hasn't a case because he was walking around with no top on ??? That Irish laws allow for sexual assaults and rapes on men that have no tshirt ?

*slaps head again in pure desperation at the tought of this ridiculous notion

It would be a sexual assault only, not a rape.

coolhull

NiallSparky wrote: »

it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

What are ''appropriate precautions'' that women should take against being raped?
And why should they have to?

Amirani

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

More victim blaming. So I shouldn't be allowed to walk down the street in a dress or a skirt? Do I deserve to be raped because I didn't take "all appropriate precautions"?

Here's a suggestion - men and women be allowed wear whatever they want and men (and sometimes women) just stop raping people, hmm?

I haven't done any victim blaming. The post of mine you quoted clarifies that I believe that 100% of the responsibility lies with the perpetrator.

However, people who walk through dangerous areas on their own while drunk or otherwise are extremely foolish. People should consider the threat of being murdered, mugged or raped when making choices. We don't live in a fantasy world where none of these exist. I mentioned nothing about the clothes that people wear, simply that people should be as sensible as possible.

jaffacakesyum

KKkitty wrote: »

I'm really sorry you went through it too For years after it I blamed myself and was self destructive with alcohol and honestly not caring what happened to me.

Have you talked to anyone about it? For years I didn't tell anybody, and I'm a bit of a brick wall when it comes to emotions sometimes so I felt like I didn't need to, but honestly I would recommend talking to a professional or a close friend or family member. You'd be surprised also, when you start talking to friends and family about it, that they will have their own stories to tell. It's saddening but also comforting that you're not alone at all in your experiences. Unfortunately it's very common. That's not to take away what you've gone through though, of course it's an awful thing to happen to anyone.

Hope you're doing better with regards to the alcohol - I'm trying to cut down myself!! Best of luck and pm me if you ever wanna chat!

leggo

coolhull wrote: »

And why should they have to?

I'm not defending the argument you quoted, but I don't like that line of questioning on this issue. I don't think it helps.

In an ideal world, we should be able to leave our doors open for the neighbours to wander in for a chat as they please. But we are forced to lock them and put alarms on for fear of being burgled. We shouldn't have to, but alas, we do.

By that logic, it'd be a fair counterpoint to say that the fact that there are evil scum out there who would commit such crimes, that it's only logical women take the necessary precautions to ensure they don't court their attention. A dangerous rapist may deserve to be told what a horrible person they are in the street, but it also wouldn't be a wise decision for a woman to do so on her own. See what I mean?

SB2013

coolhull wrote: »

What are ''appropriate precautions'' that women should take against being raped?
And why should they have to?

Because unfortunately there are people out there who would think nothin of taking advantage of a vulnerable person. You can call it victim blaming if you want. I call it adapting to a ****ty world.

Amirani

Links234 wrote: »

no, you know what? **** this attitude and **** everything about it

when someone's taking 'precautions against being raped' what they're doing is saying "please rape someone else"

I didn't just refer to rape, I referred to every crime. Don't walk around South London at night with an iPhone hanging around your neck. Don't make racist remarks while walking through Brooklyn. I merely said people should be as sensible as possible, I don't see how you can disagree with that. The World can be a **** place and you have to remember that.

Femme_Fatale

Yeh ok it's unwise for anyone to e.g. walk down a deserted street alone late at night, but if they (female or male) are raped, the blame still overwhelmingly lies with the rapist. Any responsibility the victim has is negligible.

But the provocative clothing thing is a load of tripe: wearing flowing robes doesn't stop women being raped in Sharia-governed countries.

It's a no-no to have sex with someone who is nearly comatose drunk too.

Gin77

Aren't who women coerced into sex also rape victims?
So therefore people who pimp women for sex are rapists.
Are teenage boys who urge girls into having sex rapists?
And also the girl who doesn't want to but feel obliged as shes ends up at some fella's house.
I have daughters I worry about this stuff.

Amirani

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh ok it's unwise for anyone to e.g. walk down a deserted street alone late at night, but if they (female or male) are raped, the blame still overwhelmingly lies with the rapist. Any responsibility the victim has is negligible

Not just overwhelmingly in my view, the blame absolutely lies with the rapist, 100%. There's never any leeway in that sense for me.

Seanafitz

SB2013 wrote: »

Because unfortunately there are people out there who would think nothin of taking advantage of a vulnerable person. You can call it victim blaming if you want. I call it adapting to a ****ty world.

So should we cover up and not wer a dress or skirts ? Should we muslimise our country and be uptight just to protect women from rape ? Or to protect rapists from being exposed ?

Because in my opinion nothing gives any other human being the right to have any type of sexual interactions with you without your permission ... I couldn care if you walk around with a sign on your neck saying I like to have sex ... That's not a reasonable excuse for a person to be raped !

ahnowbrowncow

Gin77 wrote: »

Aren't who women coerced into sex also rape victims?
So therefore people who pimp women for sex are rapists.
Are teenage boys who urge girls into having sex rapists?
And also the girl who doesn't want to but feel obliged as shes ends up at some fella's house.
I have daughters I worry about this stuff.

Teach your daughters to say no then, can't go around calling people rapists because a girl has sex because she felt obliged but didn't object in any way.

Gbear

Is there any evidence that rapists are more likely to rape a woman in a dress/skirt/loincloth as opposed to, for example, brown baggy corduroy pants?

It seems reasonable enough to suggest that women should take precautions because everyone should take precautions against everything up to a point.
Would it even make a difference though?

Pokiedots

NiallSparky wrote: »

it would be silly for a person to not take appropriate precautions against being raped.

Sorry?
You take precautions, like using a condom, against getting pregnant because sperm in its natural state is a method of impregnating

You take precautions, like using an umbrella when it rains, to avoid getting wet because rain naturally makes things wet

You don't take precautions against getting raped because it is no ones natural state or primary function to rape another

I find the idea of someone claiming they were provoked into raping someone else or not prevented from raping someone disgusting. If you can't keep your hands to yourself stay at home or talk to a doctor. Why the F should it be anyone else responsibility to have to stop you from doing something so awful?

The only one who can prevent a rape from happening is the rapist