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Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

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  • #422
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I have been responding to posts about hugging, albeit hugging which the poster felt might have had ulterior motives, yet in which the poster referred to "the hugger" and not "the groper".
    So you agree that it's "hugging with ulterior motives" but you don't like the term "groping"....well, my point still stands, so quibbling over the terminology is beside the point.
    If you walk up to a woman on the street and start "hugging her with ulterior motives" are you really going to tell the guards "She didn't tell me not to...."?


  • #423
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    starling wrote: »
    So you agree that it's "hugging with ulterior motives" but you don't like the term "groping"
    The poster in question feels it was hugging with ulterior motives, I certainly was not there and have no uterus.]]

    starling wrote: »
    If you walk up to a woman on the street and start "hugging her with ulterior motives" are you really going to tell the guards "She didn't tell me not to...."?
    I will if she's my friend or acquaintance, as in this case they know one another.


  • #424
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    B0jangles wrote: »
    This is pretty funny.

    You got really offended when people took up your post about your friend's drunken hugging habits and accused them of not knowing the real facts, or the people involved, and yet here you are, confidently explaining someone else's experience to them, and letting them know how they are actually misunderstanding their own experience.

    The irony aboundeth.

    Not at all. I'm taking the story at face value, as she told it (plus it's a one-off encounter that seems to be described in great detail).

    In my case, people began embellishing my story and adding to it before coming to conclusions that were WAY off.


  • #425
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    B0jangles wrote: »
    This is pretty funny.

    You got really offended when people took up your post about your friend's drunken hugging habits and accused them of not knowing the real facts, or the people involved, and yet here you are, confidently explaining someone else's experience to them, and letting them know how they are actually misunderstanding their own experience.

    The irony aboundeth.

    Except that given the details that she gave the guy asking for her number did very little wrong... even only knowing the limited amount of information we have at hand...
    He was talking to two people... he asked for their phone numbers, he rang her (either to check for a fake number or to give her his number) and he rang her the next day. It's not a massive assumption to presume that if someone gives you their number that it's ok to call at least once or twice incase they missed the first call... yeah it looks a bit desperate to ring the next day... and all the future calls are creeepy.
    If the guy was creepy she should have refused to give her number, if he acted out about that that's his problem.
    If she wanted to avoid looking bad or feeling bad the on the balance of things it would have been been better to refuse rather than how it looked to not answer calls to a number he knew was real... "why did she give me her number if she wasn't going to answer?"
    Instead of 30 seconds of discomfort she had a week of fear because the phone rang... even answering it the first day and clearly and cleanly rejecting him would have been better.


  • #426
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Sometimes when I'm at a packed concert I have to squeeze through the crowd to try and get to the toilet and in the process I will unintentionally rub off some people. I'm just wondering should I maybe just do my business where I stand instead in case I might be inadvertently accused of frottage when I try to move through the crowd. I'd hate people to think that there was rubbing 'with ulterior motives' going on.


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  • #427
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Rosy Posy wrote: »
    No, this is bullish!t.
    Rape culture is being fearful of calling a rape a rape lest you be branded a false accuser.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Surely that's for the courts to decide

    Realistically, if there's just two witnesses, the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator, and the perpetrator says it was consensual the case is never going to court. And a legitimate fear expressed by the victim and her peers of even raising the issue of rape in circumstances when she is less than virginal and was drunk is a manifestation of rape culture.
    Rosy Posy wrote: »
    Rape culture is people saying it wasn't really rape because you had previously had a one night stand with the perpetrator, because you passed out drunk, because you wore short skirts, because you weren't ashamed of your sexuality.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I would be shocked/appalled if the average Irish person held this opinion.

    And yet many of them, of both genders do. I was shocked and appalled to be subjected to this kind of public trial by gossip, but it happens, in middle class suburban Ireland.
    Rosy Posy wrote: »
    Rape culture is the community casting aspertions on the validity of the rape because you didn't report it.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    That is understandable. Sure people are going to be confused if you claim you were raped but do not report it regardless of your reasons for not reporting it.

    But there are so many reasons not to report a rape. For one the woeful conviction rate, as well as fear of having your sexual history picked over in public, fear of being branded a false accuser, social awkwardness where the perpetrator is a member of a peer group. The nature of the crime of rape is that it induces feelings of guilt and shame in the victim which lead them to turn inwards- I shouldn't have drank so much/worn that outfit/smiled at him, I should have woken up/screamed/fought. This is why most victims want to forget about the whole thing rather than go through the judicial system which will put them under further scrutiny and force them to relive the incident.

    And while we're on the topic of the judgement of the community on whether a rape claim is valid or not, I resent that I should be subject to that judgement and the onus should be on me to provide all the facts of what is essentially a deeply personal trauma so that others might judge me. Fwiw, I didn't go around making rape claims (thanks to the in hindsight depressingly accurate counsel of my friends)- there were other people in the house the next day who heard and saw me screaming and roaring and throwing the perpetrator out and so the rumour mill began. From some quarters the fact that I didn't accuse and shame the perpetrator publicly was further evidence of my guilt.
    Rosy Posy wrote: »
    Rape culture is being told that the guy who raped you actually really liked you and wanted to be your boyfriend, as if that would make you feel better about it.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    No it isnt, that's just a level of dickheadedness I cant even think of a name for.

    But yet this was something that I was confronted with. In addition some people actually thought that I was the one in the wrong for having a ons with the guy previously and not wanting to take it further. There was an attitude of, well you used him for sex (when it was consensual and I made it clear it was a ons) and he wanted a relationship so you both hurt each other. Some people equated his hurt feelings that I didn't want to have a romantic relationship with him, with my bodily violation.

    The guy was not in any way excluded from our wider peer group, only reviled by my close friends, for which he garnered some sympathy from others. This to me is a product of rape culture. FFS I believe that my reaction and that of my friends was a product of rape culture.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    All these things happen in Ireland. They are, however, the actions and opinions of individuals and/or an extreme minority of people, they are in no way indicative of the Irish mentality when it comes to rape. There is no "rape culture" in Ireland and I find the suggestion that there is personally offensive.
    There are scumbags who rape people. They do not represent Ireland and the vast majority of Irish people would love to see them locked up (personally in the case of repeat offenders I'm in favour of chemical castration.)

    There is a serious problem with the way courts deal with rapists. Again, that is a fault within our justice system that needs to be addressed, it is not indicative of rape culture.

    There is a problem with rape in Ireland and everything that can be done to wipe it out should be. However, using hysterical terms like "rape culture" where they obviously do not apply is not helpful and only ends up causing arguments like this, thereby distracting from the real issue.

    I'm coming round to the thought that there is a problem with the term rape culture in that it makes many people defensive, and so I think that it needs better definition. Rape culture does not have to be analogous to a culture such as that in certain Pacific Islands or parts of rural India where gang rape is considered an acceptable evenings entertainment. A culture of rape apology and victim blaming is a continuum whereby the attitudes and received wisdom of society as a whole serve to support rapists by creating myths around what is and isn't rape, and by making reporting and convictions unlikely which leads to reoffence; and to disempower victims, by exacerbating the guilt and shame that the crime already entails.


  • #428
    tiny_penguin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭tiny_penguin


    As a woman I feel that the men on this thread are getting a very hard time. I hate physical contact/overfamiliarity from people I don't know but I would be EXTREMELY upset if my male friends thought they could not hug me or be affectionate with me in case I took them up the wrong way. A hug when i am not expecting it from someone I know is not a big deal to me and if they ever crossed a line i would tell them in no uncertain terms. I would also take great offence if another male friend took it upon himself to tell someone what I did/did not like in terms of affection/hugging/touching wihtout me asking them too. As leggo mentioned it is the place of his female friends to place the boundaries unless they ask him to say something.

    It is completely different getting un warranted touching from someone you dont know, but even still if someone I am meeting for the first time goes in for a hug I will back away and reach my hand out for a handshake. If someone I dont know gets over familiar with touching ie hand on my arm/shoulder, using short names/pet names etc I will politely tell them im not ok with it, try laugh it off and if they continue I remove myself from the situation. Again i set my own boundaries and dont expect people to read my mind and only get offended/angry if my requests are ignored.

    I also find it odd that if you gave a guy your number why him using it to call you would strike such fear or dread. Its a phone call, if you don't want to take it ignore. I have been on the receiving end of phone harrassment, but unless it goes on to that, there is no reason to dread a couple of initial calls.


  • #429
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    Thread title should be changed to 'Is a hug always a hug?'


  • #430
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs


    jeez we still not on the hug issue are we.


  • #431
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    What is Rape,

    Look at the story's over in England a couple of weeks ago, Girl was up for a gang bang, so the lads were well up for it the next day she didn't feel happy or had seconds thoughts about it so she went to the local Cops and reported Rape..

    its easy for a Girl to call rape when she feels bad the next day. I think if a women call rape and found out to be a lie they should do time in jail 2 years..

    they don't care about some lad doing 5 years in jail for something that he didn't do so they should do the time as well if found to be false.


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  • #432
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs


    I think a girl who cries rape when it wasn't should be named and jailed the same amount of time the fella would have got if he had done it.


  • #433
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    kiffer wrote: »
    Except that given the details that she gave the guy asking for her number did very little wrong... even only knowing the limited amount of information we have at hand...
    He was talking to two people... he asked for their phone numbers, he rang her (either to check for a fake number or to give her his number) and he rang her the next day. It's not a massive assumption to presume that if someone gives you their number that it's ok to call at least once or twice incase they missed the first call... yeah it looks a bit desperate to ring the next day... and all the future calls are creeepy.
    If the guy was creepy she should have refused to give her number, if he acted out about that that's his problem.
    If she wanted to avoid looking bad or feeling bad the on the balance of things it would have been been better to refuse rather than how it looked to not answer calls to a number he knew was real... "why did she give me her number if she wasn't going to answer?"
    Instead of 30 seconds of discomfort she had a week of fear because the phone rang... even answering it the first day and clearly and cleanly rejecting him would have been better.

    Read the story again.

    The guy was talking almost exclusively to her friend, she was barely involved in the conversation.

    Once he had her number, he immediately checked to see if it was real. If it had not been, the situation would have been at best embarassing, and at worst the guy could have gotten pissed off at being lied to.

    Also it sounds like the guy didn't bother to test the number of the guy he was actually talking to - a bit odd if his concern was to check there were no mistakes in the phone numbers he'd just gotten, don't you think?

    He never called the person he'd actually been talking to, the person he'd specifically asked about social activities; only the girl he barely interacted with, calling repeatedly over the course of a week even though he got no response at all.


  • #434
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs


    I also think different people react in different ways to situations. The girl with creepy phone calls to another girl may have been a guy with a fancy and she may have answered. everyone has ways of dealing and assessing a situation, it's not all black and white.


  • #435
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Cork24 wrote: »
    What is Rape,

    Look at the story's over in England a couple of weeks ago, Girl was up for a gang bang, so the lads were well up for it the next day she didn't feel happy or had seconds thoughts about it so she went to the local Cops and reported Rape..

    its easy for a Girl to call rape when she feels bad the next day. I think if a women call rape and found out to be a lie they should do time in jail 2 years..

    they don't care about some lad doing 5 years in jail for something that he didn't do so they should do the time as well if found to be false.

    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?


  • #436
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs


    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?

    If a girl gives the ok then the next day feels bad then it is not rape.


  • #437
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?


    Unfair allegation ?

    I'm Sorry if a Girl goes up to a bunch of Soccer players and ask them for a wild night! then its no rape nor allegation some Women who though it be great fun. May be it was great for her and for the lads.

    but she got up the next morning thinking to herself what did i do last night remember what she done didn't like it so she called rape. I'm sorry am i missing the point here ? when a women goes up to a guy takes him back home and get it on, wakes up doesn't like the guy does she call rape?


  • #438
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    bacon n eggs wrote: »
    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?

    If a girl gives the ok then the next day feels bad then it is not rape.

    A girl gets gang banged and you think that's okay? How would you define up for it as opposed to coerced into it by a group of men?


  • #439
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    leggo wrote: »
    That guy has done literally zero wrong. He's asked for your number and you've given it to him then...shock horror, he had the audacity to use it! The 'checking your number' trick is as old as the hills. And yet you're acting as if he should be feared as a predator.

    It just sounds like you're a bit passive tbh, that you couldn't politely let someone know you weren't interested. And that's somehow his fault now. This story doesn't belong anywhere near a rape thread.

    Interesting he checked the number right away though, seems he might have been given a fake one before, may have to work on his pitch.

    Anyway the advantage of him calling right away is that a girl can recognise his number before he calls. Common courtesy though would not be to ignore this person - I have met with women and even where we've agreed not to do so again, a quick message to say so is only polite.


  • #440
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Cork24 wrote: »
    What is Rape,

    Look at the story's over in England a couple of weeks ago, Girl was up for a gang bang, so the lads were well up for it the next day she didn't feel happy or had seconds thoughts about it so she went to the local Cops and reported Rape..

    its easy for a Girl to call rape when she feels bad the next day. I think if a women call rape and found out to be a lie they should do time in jail 2 years..

    they don't care about some lad doing 5 years in jail for something that he didn't do so they should do the time as well if found to be false.

    The police have decided not to go forward with the case, that does not mean the allegations are untrue, just that they do not think there is enough evidence to proceed. The family are apparently planning to proceed with a private prosecution.


  • #441
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    bacon n eggs wrote: »
    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?

    A girl gets gang banged and you think that's okay? How would you define up for it as opposed to coerced into it by a group of men?

    Regret does not necessarily constitute rape. I regret sleeping with a lot of my prior partners but it was consensual.


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  • #442
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    B0jangles wrote: »
    R
    Also it sounds like the guy didn't bother to test the number of the guy he was actually talking to - a bit odd if his concern was to check there were no mistakes in the phone numbers he'd just gotten, don't you think?
    So if it was a ploy to get a girls number... why care?

    Girl gives a guy his number and spaz's out when he calls. Thank Christ I'm gay. You couldn't make this up.


  • #443
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?

    I think this is a case of punctuation causing a problem. He's saying she was happy enough when it happened, but regretted it the next day.


  • #444
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    bacon n eggs wrote: »
    How in sweet Jesus do you think this story constitutes an unfair allegation of rape?

    A girl gets gang banged and you think that's okay? How would you define up for it as opposed to coerced into it by a group of men?


    What if i went up to a bunch of girls and ask for a gang bang we did i felt bad about my self the next Morning can i call rape


  • #445
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs



    A girl gets gang banged and you think that's okay? How would you define up for it as opposed to coerced into it by a group of men?

    If a girl gets gang banged by choice that is ok yes her choice.. if not then of course not her choice, how do you define she was ok with it then the next day says rape? six of one half a dozen of other.


  • #446
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    leggo wrote: »
    In my case, people began embellishing my story and adding to it before coming to conclusions that were WAY off.
    leggo wrote: »
    The reason I gave this example is because people were going hysterical about what it is my mates could've done when I alluded to it, and basically assuming he was a sexual predator. So I clarified that by 'handsy'...I meant he hugged people sometimes. Not essentially molested them as a few had suggested
    leggo wrote: »
    ...I volunteered a tiny bit of information on here and imaginations ran wild....

    Er, are you talking about me? Let's look at what you said:
    leggo wrote: »
    In my own group of friends, we have guys who may get 'handsy' when really drunk (we all know the type) and make sure both the girls know about this and we keep an eye on the guys/girls in certain scenarios. The guys are nice people, with no history of this kinda stuff, but we've seen how they can sometimes take liberties when drunk (perhaps without even realising what they're doing) and thus take that into account.
    leggo wrote: »
    We nicknamed one guy 'Back Hugs' because of how, when he gets drunk, he'll sometimes grab the girls for unwelcome back hugs for example.

    You're the one telling the story and you're the one who says his "hugs" are not welcome.
    leggo wrote: »
    You see, they haven't done anything but arouse suspicion.
     
    And you, or your other friends, think it's suspicious...

    So he is grabbing girls from behind (so they can't see him approaching and avoid him) for surprise! unwelcome touching. You say he does it specifically to the girls. According to your description, yes, he is sexually assaulting them.
    leggo wrote: »
    Please don't tell me how my friends, who you've never met, feel.
    We're not. You told us his "hugs" were unwelcome.

    leggo wrote: »
    The women, though, can set their own boundaries...since it's their boundaries being impeached.

    And this is the point I've been making: Your friend, according to your description, is grabbing people without regard for their boundaries. Why do they need to wait for him to do that before telling him not to? 
    When you go into a public place with him, you don't (I assume) have to tell him "Now, don't stab anyone!" because he already knows that's not acceptable behaviour. His behaviour, as you describe it, is unacceptable, so "It's up to the girls to tell him not to do it!" is just your way of avoiding the issue and passing the buck because it is -in your own words- awkward.

    If everything is hunky dory and your mate's actions are not in fact "unwelcome" then why did you say they were? And why did you bother telling the story in the first place? I can't help feeling that you don't like being told you're enabling a groper by making a joke of it rather than criticising him, so now you're trying to backtrack and say everyone's fine with his behaviour because again, you don't want to accept any responsibility. So you claim we're imagining things and being "hysterical" instead because that's easier than being the guy who spoils his mate's fun.


  • #447
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I think this is a case of punctuation causing a problem. He's saying she was happy enough when it happened, but regretted it the next day.

    The group of men accused are saying that she was happy to do it. Do you not think that they could be lying through their holes? Look at the Steubenville Rape Case. They said that she had been up for it when it was clearly not the case.


  • #448
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    leggo wrote: »
    Not at all. I'm taking the story at face value, as she told it (plus it's a one-off encounter that seems to be described in great detail).

    In my case, people began embellishing my story and adding to it before coming to conclusions that were WAY off.

    You told a story: people read it and took from your own words that your friend was being a bit creepy. You got offended and pointed out that these posters weren't there, do not know the people involved etc. etc.

    She told a story about something that happende to her: You read it and even though you weren't there and do not know the people involved proceeded to explain to here that she was wrong, overreacting and that THIS is what actually happened.

    That is pretty ironic.


  • #449
    Cork24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    The group of men accused are saying that she was happy to do it. Do you not think that they could be lying through their holes? Look at the Steubenville Rape Case. They said that she had been up for it when it was clearly not the case.


    and how do we know the Women is not lying through her hole, Sure it's big enough i would image after that night. .

    mod: banned.


  • #450
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs


    How do you know they were lying? were you there, in the same vein I don't know if they were or were not, always going to be one word against another.


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  • #451
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Cork24 wrote: »
    and how do we know the Women is by lying through her hole, Sure it's big enough i would image after that night. .

    Seriously, you're some pillock to come out with a statement like that.


This discussion has been closed.
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