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Mux2. What to Expect?

  • 27-05-2013 05:59PM
    #1
    pa990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭


    as a follow on to
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056216183

    When Mux 2 eventually gets going, what channels should we expect to see?

    will it be another PSB mux, or will we see any other channels

    will we be resigned to
    oireachtas tv
    rte2+1
    tv3+1
    e3+1
    tg4+1
    etc

    What i really want to know is, when will we see some FTA commercial channels.


Comments

  • #2
    Manc-Red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭Manc-Red


    It'll all be crap no doubt.


  • #3
    Peter Rhea
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    pa990 wrote: »
    What i really want to know is, when will we see some FTA commercial channels.

    What kind of 'FTA commercial channels' do you have in mind?

    I think a lot of us, myself included, would welcome a switch to HD for the existing channels, at least get those right before anything else.


  • #4
    ftakeith
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭ftakeith


    in a ideal saorview mux 2 we should get:

    rte3
    setanta ireland
    bbc1 NI
    bbc2 NI


  • #5
    Manc-Red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭Manc-Red


    ftakeith wrote: »
    in a ideal saorview mux 2 we should get:

    rte3
    setanta ireland
    bbc1 NI
    bbc2 NI

    I'd love that Keith.... not a hope though


  • #6
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    ftakeith wrote: »
    in a ideal saorview mux 2 we should get:

    rte3
    setanta ireland
    bbc1 NI
    bbc2 NI

    The bottom three wont be happening.

    The answer is less low quality streams. ie Higher bit rate SD stations and the eventual movement of existing SD stations to HD output.

    The evidence that 1 mux is insufficient would have been witnessed most recently by those unfortunate enough to be watching the Eurovision on RTE1. There is a stage when stat muxing becomes a joke. That was it.


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  • #7
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    pa990 wrote: »
    When Mux 2 eventually gets going, what channels should we expect to see?

    will it be another PSB mux, or will we see any other channels.

    Mux 2 will be a PSB mux, licensed to RTÉ by Comreg in May 2011.

    Since Feb 2011 the BAI are responsible for awarding spare capacity on the PSB multiplexes. In late Feb that year the BAI sought expressions of interest from anyone interested in launching services on DTT - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056195645. BAI EoI Report published Aug 2011 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73870744&postcount=25

    Little information since then on new services other than this email in Jul last year - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79995636&postcount=1984

    This online article from last Oct listed the channels that might launch on Saorview and the possibility of a third PSB mux if required.
    pa990 wrote: »
    What i really want to know is, when will we see some FTA commercial channels.

    The only chance of any commercial or UK terrestrial channels will be through a commercial DTT service - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84295408#post84295408
    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    I think a lot of us, myself included, would welcome a switch to HD for the existing channels, at least get those right before anything else.
    RTÉ 1 HD is on the way - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056941045 so the second mux will be required. And we know TG4 HD is testing on UPC.

    Before we see the second mux and any new channels a decision on the mux tarrif is required - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056702415


  • #8
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    STB wrote: »

    The evidence that 1 mux is insufficient would have been witnessed most recently by those unfortunate enough to be watching the Eurovision on RTE1. There is a stage when stat muxing becomes a joke. That was it.

    Is there any technical reason that the play out for cannot be switched to HD for such an event? Or is it the legislation that's the issue?


  • #9
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    We also know TV3 have built a studio for HD with the help of Sony. I suppose they may need someone's help to pay the transmission fee before they go with it though.

    I would expect RTE to fill the first mux on their own and leave the second mux for the others. UTV could apply for a licence - and that might frighten TV3 re transmission charges.


  • #10
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    mike65 wrote: »
    Is there any technical reason that the play out for cannot be switched to HD for such an event? Or is it the legislation that's the issue?

    If it could be switched over there is no capacity on Mux1 to do so, SD video uses about 2 Mbps - HD averages about 6 Mbps.


  • #11
    Rick_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Rick_


    So will they be putting all HD services on one MUX and leaving SD stuff for the other or how do you think they will organise it?

    If they keep everything as is channel wise and also regarding bit rate etc. then the MUX's, each with a capacity of 24.128MB could be set up like this:-

    MUX 1 | MUX 2
    RTÉ ONE HD | TV 3 HD
    RTÉ TWO HD | 3e
    TG 4 HD | RTÉ News Now
    RTÉ ONE+1 / RTÉ Jr |
    All Radio @ 128kb/s|
    TOTAL - 22.208MB | TOTAL - 10.672MB

    This allows all the current radio stations broadcasting at the shockingly low rate of 96kb/s to increase to 128 with room for plenty more to launch PLUS it still leaves space on MUX 2 for a potential 6 more SD services or 2 more HD services, or am I missing something / worked it out wrong?


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  • #12
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Paddy C wrote: »
    So will they be putting all HD services on one MUX and leaving SD stuff for the other or how do you think they will organise it?

    If they keep everything as is channel wise and also regarding bit rate etc. then the MUX's, each with a capacity of 24.128MB could be set up like this:-

    MUX 1 | MUX 2
    RTÉ ONE HD | TV 3 HD
    RTÉ TWO HD | 3e
    TG 4 HD | RTÉ News Now
    RTÉ ONE+1 / RTÉ Jr |
    All Radio @ 128kb/s|
    TOTAL - 22.208MB | TOTAL - 10.672MB
    This allows all the current radio stations broadcasting at the shockingly low rate of 96kb/s to increase to 128 with room for plenty more to launch PLUS it still leaves space on MUX 2 for a potential 6 more SD services or 2 more HD services, or am I missing something / worked it out wrong?

    It is not a good idea to have 3 HD muxes channels on one mux.

    More likely is:

    Mux 1: RTE1 HD RTE 2 HD RTE NN RTE 1+1/Jr All Radio

    Mux 2: TV3 HD TG4 HD 3E

    This has the advantage that RTE can argue among themselves about bandwidth sharing.


  • #13
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    More likely is:

    Mux 1: RTE1 HD RTE 2 HD RTE NN RTE 1+1/Jr All Radio

    Mux 2: TV3 HD TG4 HD 3E

    This has the advantage that RTE can argue among themselves about bandwidth sharing.

    And as someone said here previously if all RTÉ TV channels are carried on one mux then only one Aertel data stream is required.


  • #14
    Rick_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Rick_


    Well then, going by that it would be:

    MUX 1 | MUX 2
    RTÉ ONE HD | TV 3 HD
    RTÉ TWO HD | TG 4 HD
    RTÉ News Now | 3e
    RTÉ ONE+1 / RTÉ Jr |
    All Radio @ 128kb/s|
    TOTAL - 18.112MB | TOTAL - 14.768MB

    Still leaves a bit of room for expansion on both sides, or a bandwith increase....?


  • #15
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Paddy C wrote: »
    Well then, going by that it would be:

    MUX 1 | MUX 2
    RTÉ ONE HD | TV 3 HD
    RTÉ TWO HD | TG 4 HD
    RTÉ News Now | 3e
    RTÉ ONE+1 / RTÉ Jr |
    All Radio @ 128kb/s|
    TOTAL - 18.112MB | TOTAL - 14.768MB
    Still leaves a bit of room for expansion on both sides, or a bandwith increase....?

    You could add two SD channels to the Mux2 side. Probably Oireachtias TV so the politicians can watch it from home and perhaps the Irish Film Channel. Both TG4 and TV3 could launch a children's channel.


  • #16
    MACHEAD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭MACHEAD


    I'd like to see a few more radio stations getting a chance at wider coverage via DTT, namely; Today FM, FM 104, Nova 100, & News Talk. As well as some of the smaller 'niche' stations specialising in 'oldies', classic rock, hard rock etc.

    Quite a few people nowadays have their TV sound fed through sound systems, as the tiny speakers in flat panel TV's give woeful sound quality. So radio via DTT can provide fairly decent sound. I even have the small kitchen TV sound thru a pair of PC speakers as the internal ones were useless.


  • #17
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There is plenty of room on mux2 for 10 radio stations as on mux 1. The providers just need to pay the transmission charges. I would like to see the SD channels going 720 horizontal resolution myself. A third mux might be worth it if HD becomes more prevalent.


  • #18
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    MACHEAD wrote: »
    I'd like to see a few more radio stations getting a chance at wider coverage via DTT, namely; Today FM, FM 104, Nova 100, & News Talk. As well as some of the smaller 'niche' stations specialising in 'oldies', classic rock, hard rock etc.

    Quite a few people nowadays have their TV sound fed through sound systems, as the tiny speakers in flat panel TV's give woeful sound quality. So radio via DTT can provide fairly decent sound. I even have the small kitchen TV sound thru a pair of PC speakers as the internal ones were useless.
    Yeah, I'd like to see some non-RTE radio stations on Saorview too. I'm probably more likely to get commercial radio sooner via DTT than DAB.

    @Sam Russell: Why 720p and not 1080i?


  • #19
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    byte wrote: »

    @Sam Russell: Why 720p and not 1080i?

    720i instead of 576i


  • #20
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    byte wrote: »
    @Sam Russell: Why 720p and not 1080i?

    I think he was referrring to the low screen resolution used by the Saorview channels for SD - 544 x 576i, maybe we should be using 720 x 576i or 704 x 576i like the main channels on Freeview.


  • #21
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    720i instead of 576i

    720 instead of 544?


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  • #22
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Cush wrote: »
    720 instead of 544?

    Whatever. My TV quotes the current format as 576i, but then what do RTE know?


  • #23
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,749 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Whatever. My TV quotes the current format as 576i, but then what do RTE know?

    576i is the vertical resolution. It's correct and can't be any higher in SD, 576i50.
    Poster above are correct, you mean increase the horizontal resolution from 544 to 704 or 720, but that would still be a 576i signal. It's the vertical resolution that defines the standards not the horizontal.


  • #24
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Whatever. My TV quotes the current format as 576i, but then what do RTE know?

    576i vertical resolution and 1080i for RTÉ2 HD.

    544 horizontal resolution for the SD channels and 1440 for RTÉ2 HD.

    The BBC SD channels on Freeview use 720 (horz pixels) x 576i (vertical) and ITV/Ch 4 use 704 x 576i.

    My Sony TV also quotes the vertical resolution only e.g. 576/25Hz, 1080/25Hz.


  • #25
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Cush wrote: »
    576i vertical resolution and 1080i for RTÉ2 HD.

    544 horizontal resolution for the SD channels and 1440 for RTÉ2 HD.

    The BBC SD channels on Freeview use 720 (horz pixels) x 576i (vertical) and ITV/Ch 4 use 704 x 576i.

    My Sony TV also quotes the vertical resolution only e.g. 576/25Hz, 1080/25Hz.

    In my original post, I said the horizontal resolution should be increased to 720. This was then quoted as 720p which is not what was meant. Whatever is the correct terminology, we need the resolution of SD channels to be 720 by 576 at 50i. This would increase the bandwidth by 30% or so (all things being equal). This would be well worth it.


  • #26
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,065 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    we need the resolution of SD channels to be 720 by 576 at 50i. This would increase the bandwidth by 30% or so (all things being equal). This would be well worth it..

    Agree with you 100%.


  • #27
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,180 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    In my original post, I said the horizontal resolution should be increased to 720. This was then quoted as 720p which is not what was meant. Whatever is the correct terminology, we need the resolution of SD channels to be 720 by 576 at 50i. This would increase the bandwidth by 30% or so (all things being equal). This would be well worth it.
    Ah yes, I get ye now! I didn't notice you mention horizontal resolution.

    Yes, I agree with that.


  • #28
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    ftakeith wrote: »
    in a ideal saorview mux 2 we should get:

    rte3
    setanta ireland
    bbc1 NI
    bbc2 NI

    Setanta are a premium pay-TV channel and will not be free-to-air anytime soon. The BBC stations may have been planned at one stage but lobbying by the pay-TV platforms has scuppered any possiblity of that ever happening. RTÉ Three may yet happen, but could be a while down the road. In reality the only new channels being proposed for Saorview at present would be the HD varients of the existing channels

    Sam Russell wrote:
    Probably Oireachtias TV so the politicians can watch it from home and perhaps the Irish Film Channel. Both TG4 and TV3 could launch a children's channel.

    Oireachtas TV will only happen if RTÉNL/2RN/whatever they are called now agree to do it for free. They won't, and for regulatory reasons can't anyway.

    TV3 don't air childrens programmes at all and apart from a small dozage of it in their very early years have never done so, so what makes you think they want to launch a children's channel? TG4 could though, they have got a Cula4 EPG listing on cable though like TRTÉ it is only a duplicate stream of the parent channel and exists only so that kids will find it while flicking around the children's section of the EPG. Finding channels on the EPG is not a problem on Saorview for obvious reasons...


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