Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

Obliq wrote: »

Two drunk people going to bed together, all goes as it normally does and perhaps one or both regret it later is not rape, no.

Two drunk people going to bed together, man goes further in some way than woman wishes. Woman says stop and he refuses to stop, that's rape. Drunk or not, that's rape.

right. but nobody is questioning that.

leggo wrote: »

On the phone now, so can't address this as thoroughly as I'd like to. But just to point out that people are adding extra elements to my own story that simply aren't there:

• He's not 'grabbing randomers' and forcing them to hug. He's hugging female friends who are just as likely to be happy to hug him at other times. As far as I can see, it's just that he misjudges situations sometimes.

• He's also not grabbing people when he knows they don't want it. Like I said, it's just as likely that they might be well up for a hug at the time. I think he's just not very self-aware in reading the situation, especially while drunk.

So for people to call this all 'sexual assault' is ridiculously unhelpful. Perhaps there is scope for doing more, however when you consider that you've arrived at the sexual assault conclusion by embellishing several crucial elements into my story, then I'm sorry but I can't take your point as seriously as I would if you'd dealt with the story at face value.

We didn't embellish anything. You said the hugs were "unwelcome". That is the one crucial element in your story. You think his behaviour is bad enough to warn the girls about but you don't think anyone should tell him it's not okay.

Maybe the women are happy to hug him at other times. That doesn't mean they're always okay with it. It doesn't make it okay that they're his freinds and not randomers off the street.

The point is he's not even bothering to check how they feel about it, he just does it. I mentioned the analogy of grabbing a woman in the street because I'm trying to get you to see that what he is doing is assualt and the "mitigating factors" (excuses) you are offering (like, he's drunk, he knows them, they're his friends) don't make it okay.

You are actually enabling him by making a joke of it. The girls are going to be less likely to feel they can tell him to stop because you have made it clear to them that in this group, we think that stuff is just a joke, so they will feel like "spoilsports" or like they are overreacting if they complain. You have made the environment into one that makes it easier for your mate to assault women and harder for them to complain about it.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Firstly, you're mixing up two posts. You said this guy's hugging was "forced sexual contact," not part of a rape culture.
Secondly, your analogy doesnt work because a slap in the face when related to violence does not equate to a guy hugging his friends when related to rape.

I was the one who said it was forced sexual contact. Because it is.

Leggo and his friends are laughing off the regular sexual assualt this guy practices. They are refusing to take it seriously even though they consider it a problem worth warning the girls about. They are refusing to do what they can to make this guy re-examine his actions and instead leaving it all up to the victims to stop him.

That is how rape culture works. That's what she was trying to get across to you.

Obliq wrote: »

And that's the problem right there. I disagree that a man who does ignore your boundaries in this way is probably not going to stop when you say "no". It's far more likely that they would stop. I do agree that women are very fearful of the man not stopping. Men need to understand that aspect of it - there is fear involved. Huge fear, and not without good reason. A man getting handsey does inspire more fear than a woman, but I illustrated that women do it too because while there maybe little difference in how far man/woman would go with the unwelcome physical attention, women are afraid of it and rightly so.

Nobody claimed that women never grope men. So what was the point of saying "But what about the menz?"

o1s1n wrote: »

Do you remember that video posted on youtube a while ago where there's a young lad on a train and an much older woman is trying to strip his clothes off?

He's fighting it (laughing nervously, but you can see it's definitely not wanted attention) but she keeps at him? He could have probably punched her, but the fear of assaulting a female on public transport and the fact that he was being filmed, laughed at and probably stunned meant he didnt.

It does happen, but you're right in that it's not really a fear men grow up with in the same way women do.

If she's forcing sexual contact on him, she's completely in the wrong. It's not his fault. But why do you assume he would have to punch her to get her to stop?
I mean presumably she is not strong enough to hold him down or restrain him, I'm confused as to why he would claim "I couldn't stop her unless I punched her in the face, and I didn't want to do that"

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Seriously, how is anyone meant to take anything you say seriously when this is your attitude to a guy hugging his friends. I was out saturday night and my friend kept hugging me, it was bugging the hell out of me but it wasnt assault, sexual or other wise.




We may not have a rape culture but going by this we certainly have a culture of hysterics.

Well thanks for addressing my point in a respectful and calm way.:mad:
This is not "a guy hugging his friends". Read Leggo's original description. He's the one who says the behaviour is unwelcome.

The guy doesn't do it to the men. Just the women. He is assaulting them and it doesn't matter if he knows them, it doesn't matter if he's drunk. It doesn't matter if they don't go to the guards. He's still assaulting them because unwelcome sexual contact is sexual assault under the law.

starling wrote: »

Well thanks for addressing my point in a respectful and calm way.:mad:
This is not "a guy hugging his friends". Read Leggo's original description. He's the one who says the behaviour is unwelcome.

The guy doesn't do it to the men. Just the women. He is assaulting them and it doesn't matter if he knows them, it doesn't matter if he's drunk. It doesn't matter if they don't go to the guards. He's still assaulting them because unwelcome sexual contact is sexual assault under the law.

I have read leggo's original description and the subsequent clarifications. Your attempts to label a guy hugging his friends, wanted or unwanted, as sexual assault are still ridiculous, no matter how may times you read them.
You are damaging your own cause with this preposterous attitude.

B0jangles wrote: »

Going to quote myself since you seem to have missed my post somehow.

For context, this is what Leggo originally said:



He considers their behaviour to be weird enough to justify warning girls about it and making sure to keep an eye on them is some scenarios; that is not normal hugging between friends.

I didnt miss your post, I ignored it because you are deliberately quoting parts of the original post that I was not referring to. You are also taking sections of leggo's post out of context. If you want to have a discussion on the issue, fine, but i'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about how you are quoting things I wasnt referring to.

starling wrote: »

I know "men are stronger" is a generalisation, but if she was actually stronger and was preventing him from moving away, there are still things he could have done, like pointing out to the people around him that he didn't want this and that he wanted her to leave him alone. Violence is not the only way to stop it.

So what happens when he is pointing it out to people, but they're simply laughing at him? What can he do then? Can he lash out at that point?

If a woman were being assaulted in a similar way on a train by a man I am more than sure people would think it was well within her right to lash out to defend herself (which I 100% agree with) - it should be no different for a man.

starling wrote: »

I know "men are stronger" is a generalisation, but if she was actually stronger and was preventing him from moving away, there are still things he could have done, like pointing out to the people around him that he didn't want this and that he wanted her to leave him alone. Violence is not the only way to stop it.

I'm curious here. I wonder what would have happened if he had voiced his displeasure; maybe the gentlemen here can give us some idea.

Lads: a woman is trying to undress you, at least partially, and you are not willing. You cannot remove yourself from the situation. Would it be of concern to you that you may be seen as 'weird' for being a male trying to get away from a presumably sexually willing woman? Would the fear of what people may comment on, or what they'd think of your sexuality or your manliness, be a factor in whether you loudly told her to bog off or not?

o1s1n wrote: »

So what happens when he is pointing it out to people, but they're simply laughing at him? What can he do then? Can he lash out at that point?

If a woman were being assaulted in a similar way on a train by a man I am more than sure people would think it was well within her right to lash out to defend herself (which I 100% agree with) - it should be no different for a man.

As I've said you can't actually just switch men and women they're not interchangeable, but that said:
this story is an example of misunderstandings about consent and what constitutes sexual assault. The problem for the man in question is that there are three common myths working to make him feel unable to do anything.

1. "Men should want sex all the time, any way they can get it." So he has the fear that if he says "No" or "I don't want this" people will see him as somehow being unmanly.

2. "It's not sexual assault if a woman does it to a man" The people who are witnessing this do not realise that what is happening is sexual assault. In fairness the man has not clearly said "I don't want this" so they don't realise he's feeling violated. But still they are automatically treating it as funny because it doesn't occur to them that this is unwanted sexual contact.
3. "The manly way to defend yourself or to deal with someone who is annoying you is to use violence." He didn't speak out and ask for help - which would have meant the people around him could have got the woman away from him - because of his ego and the fact that asking for help or even identifying oneself as a victim is considered unmanly and a thing that weak people do.

This is why educating people about consent would be a good thing not just for women but for everyone.
Tbh I'm not even sure why we're discussing this.

kylith wrote: »

I'm curious here. I wonder what would have happened if he had voiced his displeasure; maybe the gentlemen here can give us some idea.

Lads: a woman is trying to undress you, at least partially, and you are not willing. You cannot remove yourself from the situation. Would it be of concern to you that you may be seen as 'weird' for being a male trying to get away from a presumably sexually willing woman? Would the fear of what people may comment on, or what they'd think of your sexuality or your manliness, be a factor in whether you loudly told her to bog off or not?

I'd try get her to stop and would prob get angry if she didn't. Prob is I know I couldn't push her off cause I'd be seen as an a*****e who pushed a girl and her friend would most def scream at me for doing so, the only option is try get away from her and avoid for the night. Question for you is what would you do if a guy did this to you?