B0jangles wrote: » Ok consider this, if someone said we had "a Culture of Violence" where all kinds of violence happened a lot, all the way from lower level acts like a slap all the way up to murder; would you respond to someone saying "slapping someone across the face is part of a culture of violence" with: "This type of attitude, more than anything I have read on this thread, trivialises murder. How do you expect people to take murder and murder accusations seriously when you're calling a slap in the face "part of a culture of violence"?"
Obliq wrote: » Two drunk people going to bed together, all goes as it normally does and perhaps one or both regret it later is not rape, no. Two drunk people going to bed together, man goes further in some way than woman wishes. Woman says stop and he refuses to stop, that's rape. Drunk or not, that's rape.
Links234 wrote: » This thread is an example of rape culture for crying out loud :mad: all threads like this make my blood boil, seriously...
leggo wrote: » On the phone now, so can't address this as thoroughly as I'd like to. But just to point out that people are adding extra elements to my own story that simply aren't there: • He's not 'grabbing randomers' and forcing them to hug. He's hugging female friends who are just as likely to be happy to hug him at other times. As far as I can see, it's just that he misjudges situations sometimes. • He's also not grabbing people when he knows they don't want it. Like I said, it's just as likely that they might be well up for a hug at the time. I think he's just not very self-aware in reading the situation, especially while drunk. So for people to call this all 'sexual assault' is ridiculously unhelpful. Perhaps there is scope for doing more, however when you consider that you've arrived at the sexual assault conclusion by embellishing several crucial elements into my story, then I'm sorry but I can't take your point as seriously as I would if you'd dealt with the story at face value.
starling wrote: » It's not the kind of thing you can really compare by simply saying "if it were the other way around...." The men you're talking about have probably not spent their whole lives being constantly warned about the danger of being raped. They're probably not afraid the women are going to rape them. They're probably physically stronger than the women and well able to defend themselves. When a man completely ignores your boundaries that's a pretty big warning sign that he's going to keep on ignoring them. If he puts his hands on you without even looking for permission he's probably not going to stop when you say "no."
Crooked Jack wrote: » Firstly, you're mixing up two posts. You said this guy's hugging was "forced sexual contact," not part of a rape culture. Secondly, your analogy doesnt work because a slap in the face when related to violence does not equate to a guy hugging his friends when related to rape.
starling wrote: » I'm sorry that happened Lyaiera. Your mum was right. And none of it was your fault. Fair play to you for speaking up about it. Nobody who understands anything about the nature of rape, or how it affects its victims, really finds it surprising that a lot of people don't report or that they feel like they can't call what happened 'rape' because it didn't fit in with the common misconceptions of what rape is.
Obliq wrote: » And that's the problem right there. I disagree that a man who does ignore your boundaries in this way is probably not going to stop when you say "no". It's far more likely that they would stop. I do agree that women are very fearful of the man not stopping. Men need to understand that aspect of it - there is fear involved. Huge fear, and not without good reason. A man getting handsey does inspire more fear than a woman, but I illustrated that women do it too because while there maybe little difference in how far man/woman would go with the unwelcome physical attention, women are afraid of it and rightly so.
starling wrote: » I was the one who said it was forced sexual contact. Because it is. Leggo and his friends are laughing off the regular sexual assualt this guy practices. They are refusing to take it seriously even though they consider it a problem worth warning the girls about. They are refusing to do what they can to make this guy re-examine his actions and instead leaving it all up to the victims to stop him.
starling wrote: » That is how rape culture works. That's what she was trying to get across to you.
o1s1n wrote: » Do you remember that video posted on youtube a while ago where there's a young lad on a train and an much older woman is trying to strip his clothes off? He's fighting it (laughing nervously, but you can see it's definitely not wanted attention) but she keeps at him? He could have probably punched her, but the fear of assaulting a female on public transport and the fact that he was being filmed, laughed at and probably stunned meant he didnt. It does happen, but you're right in that it's not really a fear men grow up with in the same way women do.
Crooked Jack wrote: » Seriously, how is anyone meant to take anything you say seriously when this is your attitude to a guy hugging his friends. I was out saturday night and my friend kept hugging me, it was bugging the hell out of me but it wasnt assault, sexual or other wise.
leggo wrote: » In my own group of friends, we have guys who may get 'handsy' when really drunk (we all know the type) and make sure both the girls know about this and we keep an eye on the guys/girls in certain scenarios. The guys are nice people, with no history of this kinda stuff, but we've seen how they can sometimes take liberties when drunk (perhaps without even realising what they're doing) and thus take that into account.
Crooked Jack wrote: » Seriously, how is anyone meant to take anything you say seriously when this is your attitude to a guy hugging his friends. I was out saturday night and my friend kept hugging me, it was bugging the hell out of me but it wasnt assault, sexual or other wise. We may not have a rape culture but going by this we certainly have a culture of hysterics.
starling wrote: » We didn't embellish anything.
starling wrote: » You said the hugs were "unwelcome". That is the one crucial element in your story. You think his behaviour is bad enough to warn the girls about but you don't think anyone should tell him it's not okay.Maybe the women are happy to hug him at other times. That doesn't mean they're always okay with it. It doesn't make it okay that they're his freinds and not randomers off the street.The point is he's not even bothering to check how they feel about it, he just does it.
starling wrote: » I mentioned the analogy of grabbing a woman in the street because I'm trying to get you to see that what he is doing is assualt and the "mitigating factors" (excuses) you are offering (like, he's drunk, he knows them, they're his friends) don't make it okay.
starling wrote: » You are actually enabling him by making a joke of it. The girls are going to be less likely to feel they can tell him to stop because you have made it clear to them that in this group, we think that stuff is just a joke, so they will feel like "spoilsports" or like they are overreacting if they complain. You have made the environment into one that makes it easier for your mate to assault women and harder for them to complain about it.
starling wrote: » Well thanks for addressing my point in a respectful and calm way.:mad: This is not "a guy hugging his friends". Read Leggo's original description. He's the one who says the behaviour is unwelcome. The guy doesn't do it to the men. Just the women. He is assaulting them and it doesn't matter if he knows them, it doesn't matter if he's drunk. It doesn't matter if they don't go to the guards. He's still assaulting them because unwelcome sexual contact is sexual assault under the law.
starling wrote: » If she's forcing sexual contact on him, she's completely in the wrong. It's not his fault. But why do you assume he would have to punch her to get her to stop? I mean presumably she is not strong enough to hold him down or restrain him, I'm confused as to why he would claim "I couldn't stop her unless I punched her in the face, and I didn't want to do that"
Crooked Jack wrote: » I have read leggo's original description and the subsequent clarifications. Your attempts to label a guy hugging his friends, wanted or unwanted, as sexual assault are still ridiculous, no matter how may times you read them. You are damaging your own cause with this preposterous attitude.
o1s1n wrote: » Well in this case from what I remember she was really overpowering him as he was small. You can have a very small young guy being overpowered by a larger woman - in which case violence would be the only way to stop it. Not all men are big strong things who can simply push every woman in existence off of them.
B0jangles wrote: » Going to quote myself since you seem to have missed my post somehow. For context, this is what Leggo originally said: He considers their behaviour to be weird enough to justify warning girls about it and making sure to keep an eye on them is some scenarios; that is not normal hugging between friends.
Crooked Jack wrote: » I didnt miss your post, I ignored it because you are deliberately quoting parts of the original post that I was not referring to. You are also taking sections of leggo's post out of context. If you want to have a discussion on the issue, fine, but i'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about how you are quoting things I wasnt referring to.
starling wrote: » I know "men are stronger" is a generalisation, but if she was actually stronger and was preventing him from moving away, there are still things he could have done, like pointing out to the people around him that he didn't want this and that he wanted her to leave him alone. Violence is not the only way to stop it.
kylith wrote: » I'm curious here. I wonder what would have happened if he had voiced his displeasure; maybe the gentlemen here can give us some idea. Lads: a woman is trying to undress you, at least partially, and you are not willing. You cannot remove yourself from the situation. Would it be of concern to you that you may be seen as 'weird' for being a male trying to get away from a presumably sexually willing woman? Would the fear of what people may comment on, or what they'd think of your sexuality or your manliness, be a factor in whether you loudly told her to bog off or not?
--Kaiser-- wrote: » I would have no trouble telling a women to control herself, in private or in public. I have done so before when a very drunk woman was throwing herself at me for about half an hour
o1s1n wrote: » So what happens when he is pointing it out to people, but they're simply laughing at him? What can he do then? Can he lash out at that point? If a woman were being assaulted in a similar way on a train by a man I am more than sure people would think it was well within her right to lash out to defend herself (which I 100% agree with) - it should be no different for a man.
Dravokivich wrote: » No. But it's not a sense of "manliness," that's the issue here as it isn't a "womanliness" trait that prevents a woman from saying no, nor discourages a rapist if she does.
kylith wrote: » Oh, absolutely. I was having difficulty wording it. I mean to ask if a man would allow himself to be assaulted by a woman for fear that if he told her to get lost his companions would tease him; calling him gay, questioning his manhood, saying he was weird for not wanting it, and so on?
