Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

leggo · 27-05-2013 01:54PM

Come on Rose Posy, I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, but you're adding in additional details after the fact and acting as if they were there to begin with. That's not fair on me either. It's almost like you're leading me into a victim-blaming 'trap' of sorts with those additional details that are also crucial to the discussion.

But it doesn't change the fact that I'm NOT saying you're to blame for that. Re-read my post if you don't believe me. If it's in your own house and your own room, especially (details that you're only revealing now), there sounds like nothing you could've done. You fell victim to someone capable of that sick act. That's terrible. It shouldn't happen to anyone in 2013. And we should do whatever it takes to try stop it from happening to someone else in the future.

The fact was that, if there were lessons that could've been learned, saying that the case happened to you so we shouldn't put them under the microscope, wouldn't be helpful to helping people in the future.

bacon n eggs · 27-05-2013 01:56PM

There are just some cases of rape there are no protection from.

jam_mac_jam · 27-05-2013 01:58PM

leggo wrote: »

Don't fall asleep in a place where people can't hear you scream

Jesus Christ.

leggo · 27-05-2013 02:00PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's swung the other way and there's not enough caution being advised!?! I dare you to find a single woman in her twenties or thirties in Ireland who hasn't had the "Don't walk home alone, get a taxi driver you know, text when you're in the taxi, text after your date with someone, etc." advice hundreds of times since they were a teenager.

I agree. And it's advice we should continually update with the revelation of newer scenarios. Rosy Posy actually backs me up on this here...

Rosy Posy wrote: »

No one is saying don't exercise normal street smarts to protect yourself from crime. Just don't prioritise dress and behaviour in a discussion of rape prevention because it masks the true picture of rape scenarios, actively leading potential victims to neglect to protect themselves because the rape scenario in their heads is different to the more common one they may find themselves in. What is really needed to prevent rape is to allow the truth to eclipse the myth so that people have a clearer picture of how the more usual rape plays itself out so that they can protect themselves or will actually report it after the fact.

Again, I couldn't agree more. We need to know as much information about what could happen to learn for the future. And, in doing so, we also need to demonise people being blamed after something has happened to them. They are victims and should be treated as such.

But we can learn from their misfortune without being judgemental. That is possible. We do it with hundreds of different crimes, it just seems that people have grown particularly sensitive to it given the psychological impact of rape.

I'm suggesting we evolve the conversation, not keep it going as is.

leggo · 27-05-2013 02:02PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

You're taking those words out of context, and not helping. I'm saying that if you need to call for help that there is someone around to help you. Again, that's pertaining to an example given before the revelation that it took place in her own home, which is why I said it was unfair on me to add them in after the fact.

Yellow Lobster · 27-05-2013 02:04PM

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Ok, take this scenario. Woman has ons with man, its made clear it was a one night thing and nothing's going to come of it.

Months later man finds same woman passed out drunk at a party, proceeds to help himself.

According to the law and common morality this is rape, no?

But instead of it being considered as such by the community at large, the woman's friends counsel her not to utter the word rape lest she be branded a false accuser, lest her sexual history become public knowledge, because she was drunk, because she was wearing a short skirt. Meanwhile the man says to his friends, 'but she had sex with me before, I thought she was fair game'.

Another example- the Steubenville case, where the girl had no memory of the events of that night and had they not been graphically described, and joked about with pictures via social media, and if it were not for one woman's crusade to expose what had happened she would never have known exactly what had happened to her. Some of the many witnesses did not believe that it was rape because it was not violent.

What about the victim who says no but is so paralysed with fear of the perpetrator that she doesn't attempt to physically fight him off? Consumed with guilt and shame about what has happened she may not acknowledge that she was raped but rather take the responsibility on herself.

What about the victim who is raped by a partner?

All of these areas are ones in which the victim may be unclear that a rape has taken place because of the myth that exists around the evil rapist lurking in a dark alley. I'm not saying that this doesn't happen but its the exception, not the rule, and for the more common types of rape to come into the public consciousness so that potential victims can protect themselves, acknowledge that they are in fact rape, and possibly even increase reporting and convictions so that the sh!ts who do this kind of thing don't keep doing it over and over again because they know that they will get away with it, we need to change the way we approach a discussion around rape prevention in the media. That means stop focusing on dress and behaviour and stop allowing patronising gits like Ross to air their outdated views in public.

Again you would need to be borderline retarded IMO to think someone having sex with an unconscious person isn't rape. I'd really hope it's a rarity for a human being to be so stupid.

A victim who thinks they weren't raped after being forced to have sex is a retard.

jam_mac_jam · 27-05-2013 02:05PM

leggo wrote: »

You're taking those words out of context, and not helping. I'm saying that if you need to call for help that there is someone around to help you. Again, that's pertaining to an example given before the revelation that it took place in her own home, which is why I said it was unfair on me to add them in after the fact.

In context or out of it, that is a very creepy statement. I have never, ever gone to sleep at a party and wondered was I near enough to other people that they would hear me scream.

Rosy Posy · 27-05-2013 02:06PM

leggo wrote: »

Come on Rose Posy, I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, but you're adding in additional details after the fact and acting as if they were there to begin with. That's not fair on me either. It's almost like you're leading me into a victim-blaming 'trap' of sorts with those additional details that are also crucial to the discussion.

But it doesn't change the fact that I'm NOT saying you're to blame for that. Re-read my post if you don't believe me. If it's in your own house and your own room, especially (details that you're only revealing now), there sounds like nothing you could've done. You fell victim to someone capable of that sick act. That's terrible. It shouldn't happen to anyone in 2013. And we should do whatever it takes to try stop it from happening to someone else in the future.

The fact was that, if there were lessons that could've been learned, saying that the case happened to you so we shouldn't put them under the microscope, wouldn't be helpful to helping people in the future.

tbh I hadn't planned on revealing that but there was no way I couldn't defend myself once you had said what you had said. And I don't think that you're overtly blaming me for what happened. But you should have seen the reaction of the community. That is one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about combating victim blaming. This is what I do to try to stop it from happening to someone else- try to change attitudes that will lead people to think that its impossible for someone to be raped by someone they had previously had consensual sex with, if both parties are drunk but one a lot drunker than the other, or even that her clothes or sexual history has any relevance to the situation.

I believe that the best way to protect people from this kind of thing happening is to change the way rape is perceived in the public consciousness so that people can realise that yes, most rapists are not beastly strangers but real people that we probably know and trust, and who have access to us in our homes and familiar places. I also think that by focusing on avoiding victim blaming we will encourage reportage which will reduce this kind of crime. An average rapist commits six rapes. Imagine what we could do to the rape figures if they were caught and convicted after the first. And imagine how many opportunistic rapists would be discouraged if they thought there was a real danger of being caught, shamed and punished.

The Backwards Man · 27-05-2013 02:08PM

Yellow Lobster wrote: »

Again you would need to be borderline retarded IMO to think someone having sex with an unconscious person isn't rape. I'd really hope it's a rarity for a human being to be so stupid.

A victim who thinks they weren't raped after being forced to have sex is a retard.

That's a very offensive comment, do you not think? Not to mention extremely hurtful to people with a difference that have been raped.

bacon n eggs · 27-05-2013 02:09PM

Seems to me everything that is said is taking out of context. Rape is wrong, rapist known or not, then there are views on victim, what they did or didn't do to protect. there are going to be differing opinions. Hashing them over and back picking on every little detail is not helpful.

27-05-2013 02:13PM

Yellow Lobster wrote: »

If I felt any of my offspring were dumb enough to put themselves in stupidly risky situations I'd give advice helping them to avoid such risky situations.

Yellow Lobster wrote: »

I'd really hope for the well being of the human species that most people would know that they have been raped when they have been raped.

Yellow Lobster wrote: »

Again you would need to be borderline retarded IMO to think someone having sex with an unconscious person isn't rape. I'd really hope it's a rarity for a human being to be so stupid.

A victim who thinks they weren't raped after being forced to have sex is a retard.

Banned

Rosy Posy · 27-05-2013 02:13PM

Yellow Lobster wrote: »

Again you would need to be borderline retarded IMO to think someone having sex with an unconscious person isn't rape. I'd really hope it's a rarity for a human being to be so stupid.

A victim who thinks they weren't raped after being forced to have sex is a retard.

This shows an utter lack of understanding of the issue. Rape is (among other things) a crime of power and humiliation that more often than not leads to feelings of guilt and shame, which can spiral into a self blaming and a self loathing that is perpetuated by a culture of victim blaming. This is one of the reasons that a victim of sexual violence is more vulnerable to being abused again.

Obliq · 27-05-2013 02:13PM

bacon n eggs wrote: »

Seems to me everything that is said is taking out of context. Rape is wrong, rapist known or not, then there are views on victim, what they did or didn't do to protect. there are going to be differing opinions. Hashing them over and back picking on every little detail is not helpful.

You have a point. In the context of the OP though, it's quite simple. Rape is always rape, and depending on whether the perpetrator is male or female, the rapist IS always to blame. I'm thinking we all agree on this at least.

St.Spodo · 27-05-2013 02:15PM

bacon n eggs wrote: »

Seems to me everything that is said is taking out of context. Rape is wrong, rapist known or not, then there are views on victim, what they did or didn't do to protect. there are going to be differing opinions. Hashing them over and back picking on every little detail is not helpful.

If a person was stabbed to death for walking through a dangerous area no one would blame the person as he didn't commit a crime. Rape is no different, and we can't continue to dwell upon 'what they did or didn't do to protect' because that only emboldens potential rapists who see the blame being directed towards the victims.

Lyaiera · 27-05-2013 02:16PM

Obliq wrote: »

You have a point. In the context of the OP though, it's quite simple. Rape is always rape, and depending on whether the perpetrator is male or female, the rapist IS always to blame. I'm thinking we all agree on this at least.

What the ****?

SB2013 · 27-05-2013 02:19PM

St.Spodo wrote: »

If a person was stabbed to death for walking through a dangerous area no one would blame the person as he didn't commit a crime. Rape is no different, and we can't continue to dwell upon 'what they did or didn't do to protect' because that only emboldens potential rapists who see the blame being directed towards the victims.

Still people cannot see the difference between apportioning blame and learning from something. Do you think your hypothetical victim will walk through that dangerous area without being very alert in future? Do you think his increased alertness will reduce the chances of him being a victim again? Do you think if he advised others about what happened to him they will also be less likely to be victimised in the same way?

Obliq · 27-05-2013 02:19PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

What the ****?

Hold your horses! In the context of the OP? "Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?" No, not if it was a female rapist, is what I meant. Rape is always rape, and the rapist IS always to blame.

leggo · 27-05-2013 02:21PM

Rosy Posy wrote: »

tbh I hadn't planned on revealing that but there was no way I couldn't defend myself once you had said what you had said. And I don't think that you're overtly blaming me for what happened. But you should have seen the reaction of the community. That is one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about combating victim blaming. This is what I do to try to stop it from happening to someone else- try to change attitudes that will lead people to think that its impossible for someone to be raped by someone they had previously had consensual sex with, if both parties are drunk but one a lot drunker than the other, or even that her clothes or sexual history has any relevance to the situation.

I believe that the best way to protect people from this kind of thing happening is to change the way rape is perceived in the public consciousness so that people can realise that yes, most rapists are not beastly strangers but real people that we probably know and trust, and who have access to us in our homes and familiar places. I also think that by focusing on avoiding victim blaming we will encourage reportage which will reduce this kind of crime. An average rapist commits six rapes. Imagine what we could do to the rape figures if they were caught and convicted after the first. And imagine how many opportunistic rapists would be discouraged if they thought there was a real danger of being caught, shamed and punished.

Again, we agree on so much of this discussion, it's just the niggling details that we sometimes differ on. I can't fault a word you've said there. And I'm sorry if you felt backed into a corner that you had to reveal your own personal experience. I think you'll only find sympathy here, though, and admiration for the bravery it took to do so.

I still feel that we can learn from the past without victim-blaming, though. There's a line there that, I agree with you, currently exists to a lot of people (even in the justice system; you may say especially so there). We do it with the likes of burglary (everyone sympathises with the victim, but you can also look to the future as to what could have been done to prevent it), there's no reason we can't do it with rape. And no, that's not me comparing the two crimes in terms of gravity, they are worlds apart. I feel that we need to find the line that allows us to do so while also taking into account the psychological scars that a victim must bare because of this crime.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

In context or out of it, that is a very creepy statement. I have never, ever gone to sleep at a party and wondered was I near enough to other people that they would hear me scream.

It's only creepy if you remove the context and put it as a standalone quote, as if it's a tagline for a horror movie or the likes.

I'd encourage my younger sister to do the same when she's older: don't go to a house with people you're not familiar with (again, not relevant to Rosy Posy's story because that's the example I thought she was discussing when I gave that quote), and if you do then sleep in a communal area with people around you so you're not as vulnerable. Of course, if she wished to sleep with a man there, then rape isn't an issue so that changes the context. It's sensible advice and worth giving.

bacon n eggs · 27-05-2013 02:22PM

If a person was stabbed to death for walking through a dangerous area no one would blame the person as he didn't commit a crime. Rape is no different, and we can't continue to dwell upon 'what they did or didn't do to protect' because that only emboldens potential rapists who see the blame being directed towards the victims.

I wouldn't go on holidays to Syria because of the danger it involves. I wouldn't like my daughter to get into a car with local boy racer because of the dangers. I wouldn't like my son to drive motorbikes because of the danger.

That doesn't mean that any of those things are wrong...to me its just being protective and avoiding situations where there is potential for danger.

B0jangles · 27-05-2013 02:26PM

leggo wrote: »

In my own group of friends, we have guys who may get 'handsy' when really drunk (we all know the type) and make sure both the girls know about this and we keep an eye on the guys/girls in certain scenarios. The guys are nice people, with no history of this kinda stuff, but we've seen how they can sometimes take liberties when drunk (perhaps without even realising what they're doing) and thus take that into account.

This kind of jumped out at me; why don't you just tell these friends that their behaviour is unacceptable and that they either get themselves under control or they aren't welcome any more?

leggo · 27-05-2013 02:32PM

B0jangles wrote: »

This kind of jumped out at me; why don't you just tell these friends that their behaviour is unacceptable and that they either get themselves under control or they aren't welcome any more?

You see, they haven't done anything but arouse suspicion. The way I'd tend to highlight these awkward issues myself, and have done, is to bring it out in the open through joking or slagging. We nicknamed one guy 'Back Hugs' because of how, when he gets drunk, he'll sometimes grab the girls for unwelcome back hugs for example.

Do you call that unacceptable? I mean, there are two ways of looking at it: one is that he can come across a bit creepy at times and show little regard for if they want his affection. The other is that he could just be a sensitive guy who wants a hug from a friend when he's drunk. If it's the latter, which is extremely possible, we can't accuse him of being rapey out straight or tell him his behaviour is unacceptable. It's not unacceptable if there's no malice behind it and no harm done, ultimately. But it is worth noting for the future and taking precautions about.

I'm also not in any position of authority over him. I can't tell him what is or isn't acceptable behaviour and expect to be listened to. The girls could, though, since it's their boundaries being breached.

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 02:33PM

St.Spodo wrote: »

Rape culture, that is, trivialising rape, joking about it, victim-blaming and slut-shaming needs to be stamped the fúck out by men and women alike. It's *always* the perpetrators fault.

This is bullshit. There is no rape culture in Ireland. No decent person in this country advocates or supports rape. Nobody is blaming the victim. Nobody is trivialising it.
"Slut-shaming" as you call it, is largely carried out by other women. As for jokes about rape, I dont know if you're referring to people talking amongst their friends or comedians. In the case of the formers, thats an issue of personal taste among friends, in the case of the latter, comedians have a right, if not a duty, to take about any and all issues.
Rape culture is a bullshit term that cannot be applied to this country and attempting to do so only mocks the experiences of women in other countries where there is this problem.
It seems we cannot have a sensible discussion on this because writing anything other than "rape bad, grrr" gets you labelled as some sort of pro-rape nutcase.

starling · 27-05-2013 02:34PM

leggo wrote: »

In my own group of friends, we have guys who may get 'handsy' when really drunk (we all know the type) and make sure both the girls know about this and we keep an eye on the guys/girls in certain scenarios. The guys are nice people, with no history of this kinda stuff, but we've seen how they can sometimes take liberties when drunk (perhaps without even realising what they're doing) and thus take that into account.

Whoa wait a second. When you say "handsy" I'm assuming you mean some of your friends grope women when they're drunk. And your strategy is...warn the women, and watch the guys??
Has it ever occurred to you to say to the guys "You grope women when you're drunk. It's unwanted sexual contact and it's wrong, and being drunk isn't an excuse. Either stop doing it or stop drinking so much."
Since you keep trying to talk about rape like it's the same as other crimes, what if your mates had a habit of stabbing women when they were drunk? Would you shrug it off in the same way by simply accepting it and saying "Girls, watch out for Dave there. He's a habit of stabbing people after a few jars. Don't say we didn't warn you. But he's really a very nice guy..."

B0jangles · 27-05-2013 02:35PM

leggo wrote: »

You see, they haven't done anything but arouse suspicion. The way I'd tend to highlight these awkward issues myself, and have done, is to bring it out in the open through joking or slagging. We nicknamed one guy 'Back Hugs' because of how, when he gets drunk, he'll sometimes grab the girls for unwelcome back hugs for example.

Do you call that unacceptable? I mean, there are two ways of looking at it: one is that he can come across a bit creepy at times and show little regard for if they want his affection. The other is that he could just be a sensitive guy who wants a hug from a friend when he's drunk. If it's the latter, which is extremely possible, we can't accuse him of being rapey out straight or tell him his behaviour is unacceptable. It's not unacceptable if there's no malice behind it and no harm done, ultimately. But it is worth noting for the future and taking precautions about.

I don't know, what might be ok in one circumstance would be pretty creepy in another.

If they are regularly making people in the group unconfortable I think everyone would be better off if they were told so directly.

27-05-2013 02:36PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

What the ****?

Obliq wrote: »

Hold your horses! In the context of the OP? "Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?" No, not if it was a female rapist, is what I meant. Rape is always rape, and the rapist IS always to blame.

I think the confusion is from you saying "depending on" rather than "regardless of whether..."

Former sounds like you're saying they may not be to blame depending on their gender!

B0jangles · 27-05-2013 02:37PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This is bullshit. There is no rape culture in Ireland. No decent person in this country advocates or supports rape. Nobody is blaming the victim. Nobody is trivialising it.
"Slut-shaming" as you call it, is largely carried out by other women. As for jokes about rape, I dont know if you're referring to people talking amongst their friends or comedians. In the case of the formers, thats an issue of personal taste among friends, in the case of the latter, comedians have a right, if not a duty, to take about any and all issues.
Rape culture is a bullshit term that cannot be applied to this country and attempting to do so only mocks the experiences of women in other countries where there is this problem.
It seems we cannot have a sensible discussion on this because writing anything other than "rape bad, grrr" gets you labelled as some sort of pro-rape nutcase.

You are wrong.

Read the personal anecdotes in this thread and try to spot why you are wrong.

bacon n eggs · 27-05-2013 02:39PM

A lot NOT ALL before you jump on the bandwagon seems to stem from drink/drugs victims and perpetrators.

hatrickpatrick · 27-05-2013 02:39PM

Interesting extra perspective on this, btw: People are arguing about avoiding certain areas because they might get raped or because if they did, they wouldn't be able to get away or get help: This is not exclusive to rape and to object to this on some kind of principle grounds is absolute madness. I live in Sandycove and there's a lovely stretch of road which leads along the DART tracks called "The Metals", it's a road which was built in the 1800s for transporting rock from the Killiney quarry to the harbour when the piers were being built.

I absolutely 100% refuse to walk this road when it's dark if I'm on my own. I won't do it. I've heard too many stories of the number of alcoholics who congregate at a particular part of it (sort of between Sandycove DART station and the park) and attack people for the craic. I've always been warned off wandering there alone at night - it's not that Sandycove is a crime hot spot or anything, just that this road is very badly lit and has almost no exit points between each end, which means if you get attacked half way down there's literally nowhere to run, and for these same reasons a group of local winos tend to drink there at night because they're less likely to be caught by a passing squad car.

Now I absolutely don't take any offense to being told "Not a good idea to hang out on that bit of the Metals after midnight". I don't regard that as victim blaming and I don't say "Don't tell me not to walk there, tell the winos not to assault me." Why? Because the winos are complete f*cking eejits (if you met this crew you'd understand) and nothing short of being locked up is going to stop them being abusive to passers by. There's no moral principle involved there, it's simply "Let's just avoid trouble and stay away from those people at night, especially on a road where I'd be outnumbered by them if they attacked me and there are no ways to get off the road."

I genuinely don't understand how anyone could be offended by that argument whether it pertains to rape, murder, assault, or being mugged.

The whole "watch what you wear" thing is a separate argument, I don't think it's going to make the slightest bit of difference to a rapist whether you're in a miniskirt or a pair of jeans, but avoiding certain areas at night on your own because they're known to be a bit dodgy? Surely to God every city of town has one or two places that for the sake of sheer common sense you just wouldn't wander into at night without backup? I've never come across a town that didn't.

leggo · 27-05-2013 02:40PM

starling wrote: »

Whoa wait a second. When you say "handsy" I'm assuming you mean some of your friends grope women when they're drunk. And your strategy is...warn the women, and watch the guys??
Has it ever occurred to you to say to the guys "You grope women when you're drunk. It's unwanted sexual contact and it's wrong, and being drunk isn't an excuse. Either stop doing it or stop drinking so much."
Since you keep trying to talk about rape like it's the same as other crimes, what if your mates had a habit of stabbing women when they were drunk? Would you shrug it off in the same way by simply accepting it and saying "Girls, watch out for Dave there. He's a habit of stabbing people after a few jars. Don't say we didn't warn you. But he's really a very nice guy..."

I've answered this above.

You also have to remember that it's all banter between friends, that could highlight any future problems down the line. I mean, I'd have girls I know who'd pinch my arse messing, for example. I don't particularly care tbh so I won't lecture them about unwanted sexual attention.

So if one guy had his arse pinched then pinched the same girl back...should we then gang up on and lecture him when he's done the exact same thing?

Like I said: The women, though, can set their own boundaries...since it's their boundaries being impeached. And, to that end, I'd fully support any girl that I know in doing so.

You kinda need something substantial to happen before you blame someone for doing it, though.

leggo · 27-05-2013 02:42PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I don't know, what might be ok in one circumstance would be pretty creepy in another.

If they are regularly making people in the group unconfortable I think everyone would be better off if they were told so directly.

Exactly, which is why I soften up the blow by making it an open joke within the group, so that it's already been highlighted if it escalates at all down the line. Again, I can't do anything myself unless someone knowingly does something wrong. Otherwise I'm just being judgemental and falsely accusing someone of something that may or may not do down the line.

Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

Comments