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Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

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  • #182
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Did anyone at all read what Nick Ross actually wrote or is that completely irrelevant?

    It was bull****.


  • #183
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    bacon n eggs wrote: »
    I think they are aware of dangers but don't think it will be them.

    And telling people that they shouldn't worry about the strangers because they are not the most common type of rapist only compounds this belief.


  • #184
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    SB2013 wrote: »
    I've already made it clear that I don't apportion any blame to a victim. I'm not going to keep clarifying it. Not all rapes can be prevented, but some can. You talk about "we" like you represent all women. Yet every weekend you can see people, not just women, in ridiculously drunk states, to the extent that they don't even know where they are, wandering around on their own. So i have to disagree with you that people are aware of the dangers out there.

    Yes, correct - women and men get hammered drunk and in that state could be completely unaware of the dangers. I agree. I know (now) you don't apportion any blame to the victim, but essentially, whether the danger could have been avoided or not, if the word no was used then it's rape. That was the basis of my first comment - why you then came at me about "not understanding" that some people don't care that "no" was said, I don't know.


  • #185
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Did anyone at all read what Nick Ross actually wrote or is that completely irrelevant?

    I did and it is being utterly misrepresented and blown way out of proportion. He dared to look into the issue in a bit more detail, idiots on Twitter launched a bullshit faux-outrage campaign at something he didnt actually say and then bam, that's how you make news.


  • #186
    bacon n eggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭bacon n eggs


    I think that too, I can understand points from all sides but if you differ from the run of mill seems to be omg how can you even harbour a view like that.


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  • #187
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    bacon n eggs wrote: »
    I think that too, I can understand points from all sides but if you differ from the run of mill seems to be omg how can you even harbour a view like that.

    Some of the reactions he got were from people who clearly hadnt even read the bloody thing. They were going on as if he was advocating rape.


  • #188
    Amelia Mammoth Barium
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Amelia Mammoth Barium


    SB2013 wrote: »
    Yeah but what you seem to have difficulty understanding is that some people don't care if you say no and don't want to have sex. So should you not try to avoid situations with people like this for your own sake?

    Eh, what? By being psychic? how are you going to know if someone will refuse to take no for an answer without being in the situation? Do you think they have neon signs on their head saying "by the way I'm a rapist"? It could be anyone. Someone who is a friend, trusted, etc.


  • #189
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Eh, what? By being psychic? how are you going to know if someone will refuse to take no for an answer without being in the situation? Do you think they have neon signs on their head saying "by the way I'm a rapist"? It could be anyone. Someone who is a friend, trusted, etc.

    I'm quite clearly not referring to situations like that but to the random and unknown offender situations.


  • #190
    Amelia Mammoth Barium
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Amelia Mammoth Barium


    SB2013 wrote: »
    I'm quite clearly not referring to situations like that but to the random and unknown offender situations.

    Well, no, it's not quite clear at all, but we still have a problem here.
    How do you propose we should identify these people who won't care if you say no? If you meet someone new, should you ask them in a public place "are you going to take no for an answer should I say it at any stage" and hope they don't freak out or lie? Should you not be alone and have a minimum of x number of people with you at all times and hope they're all ok?
    If they're not a stranger and someone you trust, should you bring it up in conversation one day? What is an "offender situation" and what was it before they suddenly became an offender?


  • #191
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    SB2013 wrote: »
    I'm quite clearly not referring to situations like that but to the random and unknown offender situations.

    It wasn't clear at all. I had a question as to why you called me on my first comment with "you don't understand...etc."


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  • #192
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Tigger wrote: »
    So men always rape and women sometimes rape ?

    I'm getting that impression from some posters. If this is the case I'm fierce behind on my raping. Is there a quota I have to fill?


  • #193
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Well, no, it's not quite clear at all, but we still have a problem here.
    How do you propose we should identify these people who won't care if you say no? If you meet someone new, should you ask them in a public place "are you going to take no for an answer should I say it at any stage" and hope they don't freak out or lie? Should you not be alone and have a minimum of x number of people with you at all times and hope they're all ok?
    If they're not a stranger and someone you trust, should you bring it up in conversation one day? What is an "offender situation" and what was it before they suddenly became an offender?

    You know what? You're right. Crime prevention is a mugs game. You go about your business as you see fit and you will be immune to any danger. Well done on solving the worlds crime problems.

    In case you were not aware, that was sarcasm. If you want to remain oblivious to obvious dangers and leave yourself in vulnerable situations then that is up to you. But be aware that there are many who will not respect your rights as you respect theirs. Good luck out there.
    Obliq wrote: »
    It wasn't clear at all. I had a question as to why you called me on my first comment with "you don't understand...etc."

    Because I disagreed with your apparent assertion that saying no is all you can do to avoid being raped.


  • #194
    Yellow Lobster
    Site Banned Posts: 14 ✭Yellow Lobster


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Endlessly focussing on the more unlikely scenarios has the effect on making people who have been raped in the commoner situations feel unsure if they have even "really" been raped or more fearful about reporting what happend to them for fear of not being believed or being dismissed as simply regretting sleeping with someone after the fact.

    I'd really hope for the well being of the human species that most people would know that they have been raped when they have been raped.


  • #195
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    SB2013 wrote: »
    And telling people that they shouldn't worry about the strangers because they are not the most common type of rapist only compounds this belief.

    Its not about telling people that they shouldn't worry about strangers. Its not focusing the discussion on rape prevention on dress or behaviour. I'm all for educating boys and girls in a gender neutral way about safety around drinking and walking alone at night but as a means of avoiding all crime, not specifically rape. When we create a situation where women are selectively told that they need to modify their behaviour in order to avoid being raped then we perpetuate the idea that this is the most common form of rape, when in fact the focus needs to shift to the far more common scenario of being raped by someone you know in a familiar location.

    Its analogous to something I read in Penelope Leech's Baby and Child about educating children around avoiding potentially abusive situations. She says that the maxim 'don't talk to strangers' is ineffective since you want your child to be able to engage with new people and because most abusers are known to the child. A far more effective rule of thumb for a child is 'don't go anywhere with anyone without clearing it with the adult in charge'.


  • #196
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Yellow Lobster wrote: »
    I'd really hope for the well being of the human species that most people would know that they have been raped when they have been raped.

    Have you even read the thread?
    KKkitty wrote: »
    When I was 16 I went to celebrate my junior cert results with my classmates. Got talking to some lad and went outside the venue. He asked me for sex and I stupidly agreed. I wasn't long changing my mind and even though I asked him a few times to stop he didn't. To this day I don't know if I was raped or not. I was naive at the time.


    (I hope you don't mind me quoting you KKKitty)


  • #197
    BizzyC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭BizzyC


    Surprised people have so much outrage over these articles, when it's clear he's been taken out of context.

    His point was that even among victims, there seems to be degrees to which they believe they've been violated, to a degree that some victims doubt that what happened to them counts as rape at all.

    How are you supposed to effectively fight a crime when the victims are allowing perpetrators to get away with it?


  • #198
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Yellow Lobster wrote: »
    I'd really hope for the well being of the human species that most people would know that they have been raped when they have been raped.

    Ok, take this scenario. Woman has ons with man, its made clear it was a one night thing and nothing's going to come of it.

    Months later man finds same woman passed out drunk at a party, proceeds to help himself.

    According to the law and common morality this is rape, no?

    But instead of it being considered as such by the community at large, the woman's friends counsel her not to utter the word rape lest she be branded a false accuser, lest her sexual history become public knowledge, because she was drunk, because she was wearing a short skirt. Meanwhile the man says to his friends, 'but she had sex with me before, I thought she was fair game'.

    Another example- the Steubenville case, where the girl had no memory of the events of that night and had they not been graphically described, and joked about with pictures via social media, and if it were not for one woman's crusade to expose what had happened she would never have known exactly what had happened to her. Some of the many witnesses did not believe that it was rape because it was not violent.

    What about the victim who says no but is so paralysed with fear of the perpetrator that she doesn't attempt to physically fight him off? Consumed with guilt and shame about what has happened she may not acknowledge that she was raped but rather take the responsibility on herself.

    What about the victim who is raped by a partner?

    All of these areas are ones in which the victim may be unclear that a rape has taken place because of the myth that exists around the evil rapist lurking in a dark alley. I'm not saying that this doesn't happen but its the exception, not the rule, and for the more common types of rape to come into the public consciousness so that potential victims can protect themselves, acknowledge that they are in fact rape, and possibly even increase reporting and convictions so that the sh!ts who do this kind of thing don't keep doing it over and over again because they know that they will get away with it, we need to change the way we approach a discussion around rape prevention in the media. That means stop focusing on dress and behaviour and stop allowing patronising gits like Ross to air their outdated views in public.


  • #199
    Amelia Mammoth Barium
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Amelia Mammoth Barium


    SB2013 wrote: »
    You know what? You're right. Crime prevention is a mugs game. You go about your business as you see fit and you will be immune to any danger. Well done on solving the worlds crime problems.

    In case you were not aware, that was sarcasm. If you want to remain oblivious to obvious dangers and leave yourself in vulnerable situations then that is up to you. But be aware that there are many who will not respect your rights as you respect theirs. Good luck out there.

    "Avoid people who don't take no for an answer"
    "How will we identify them"
    *sarcastic ranting*

    Alright so.
    Maybe next time try making some sense


  • #200
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    If a person might be victimized by people in society for something (how they act/dress), when they are doing nothing wrong, then that is a problem with society, not the victim.
    Saying someone "should know better" than to do things which attract this victimization, is blaming the victim, when the attention should be on the wider societal problem.

    Rape is obviously more than 'victimizing', just using a general term as this applies to a lot more than just rape.


    Lets actually get past the nonsense victim blaming issue and start looking at the wider societal problems though, as that is probably interesting; here are some of the reasons why people commit rape.

    So that's actually a pretty diverse set of reasons, not the "it's always about power/dominance" nonsense you usually hear; it seems like access to sex is one big thing that can immediately reduce occurrence of rape in a fair number of the situations presented there, which is a good argument for legalizing prostitution and obliterating all remaining taboo's surrounding sex (including around prostitution) in this country.

    There are other societal problems there too, like abuse (not necessarily sexual) in homes growing up (leading to a troubled later life), ignorance/lack-of-education regarding sex itself (obviously including consent), and social difficulty/exclusion of various types, and excessive drinking too (among more); none of these are an excuse obviously, but they are wider problems that can be dealt with (along with fighting the prevalent 'victim blaming' itself) to reduce the number of rapists themselves, as well as situations that may lead to rape.


    I find it strange how discussion on this topic always seems to get caught in the victim-blaming nonsense; it seems to be dancing around wider societal problems/taboo's, that need to be talked about and dealt with, some of which are actually big untalked-about (or just not talked about enough) issues that need resolving and wider discussion for public awareness/action.


  • #201
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    bluewolf wrote: »
    "Avoid people who don't take no for an answer"
    "How will we identify them"
    *sarcastic ranting*

    Alright so.
    Maybe next time try making some sense

    I'll certainly do my best to simplify things for you next time.


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  • #202
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    SB2013 wrote: »
    Because I disagreed with your apparent assertion that saying no is all you can do to avoid being raped.

    Not what I meant - looks like the misunderstanding was with both of us so. Rosy Posy puts it better than I would here:
    Rosy Posy wrote: »
    I'm all for educating boys and girls in a gender neutral way about safety around drinking and walking alone at night but as a means of avoiding all crime, not specifically rape. When we create a situation where women are selectively told that they need to modify their behaviour in order to avoid being raped then we perpetuate the idea that this is the most common form of rape, when in fact the focus needs to shift to the far more common scenario of being raped by someone you know in a familiar location.


  • #203
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Obliq wrote: »
    Not what I meant - looks like the misunderstanding was with both of us so. Rosy Posy puts it better than I would here:

    Fair enough. You'll notice that I did not confine my points to the issue of women being raped. The points i made can be just as easily associated to other crimes committed against both sexes by unknown opportunistic people.


  • #204
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    SB2013 wrote: »
    Fair enough. You'll notice that I did not confine my points to the issue of women being raped. The points i made can be just as easily associated to other crimes committed against both sexes by unknown opportunistic people.

    I agree but I think that this should be dealt with separately to the issue of rape, so as to move our thinking to a more realistic place.


  • #205
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    People are acting as if there's no precautions we can take against avoiding people who don't take no for an answer, though. I mean, we've just heard a hypothetical example of a woman passing out drunk at a party...em, hello?!

    Again, that's NOT me saying that she deserves it, was asking for it or is ultimately to blame for her own demise. But there's a definite line where she left herself vulnerable there that could have been avoided: Don't drink to that excess. Don't fall asleep in a place where people can't hear you scream if something happens. Don't go home with a group of strangers you barely know. They're not just vulnerable to rape, but what's to stop someone just stealing all of her stuff? You can't plan for and prevent every scenario, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use common sense to try and prevent certain scenarios.

    I also discussed how avoiding certain areas at certain times wasn't just a rape precaution, it was safety in general for all people. And the reply I got was something about "yeah well I'd avoid it not to get mugged, but not raped!" Just avoid a certain place altogether, it doesn't matter the exact reason. It makes you safer. What's the problem there?

    Everyone is also beating on the drum about how rape is more often by someone you know, as if people like myself on the other side aren't taking that into account or there's no way to protect against people you know. Aside from the fact that nearly every example of risky situations I've brought up in this thread falls under the latter scenario, there ARE ways you can be cautious about it.

    In my own group of friends, we have guys who may get 'handsy' when really drunk (we all know the type) and make sure both the girls know about this and we keep an eye on the guys/girls in certain scenarios. The guys are nice people, with no history of this kinda stuff, but we've seen how they can sometimes take liberties when drunk (perhaps without even realising what they're doing) and thus take that into account.

    Since 'victim-blaming' has become a thing, the consensus here seems to have swung so much in the other direction that any attempt to speak common sense or urge people to not leave themselves vulnerable, it's instantly dismissed as such. That's not good. And again, I'll repeat this until people understand, I don't suggest that we retrospectively blame women for their own suffering. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn lessons from cases that we learn about in order to prevent future incidents from happening.


  • #206
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    Rape culture, that is, trivialising rape, joking about it, victim-blaming and slut-shaming needs to be stamped the fúck out by men and women alike. It's *always* the perpetrators fault.


  • #207
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    leggo wrote: »
    we've just heard a hypothetical example of a woman passing out drunk at a party...em, hello?!

    Again, that's NOT me saying that she deserves it, was asking for it or is ultimately to blame for her own demise. But there's a definite line where she left herself vulnerable there that could have been avoided: Don't drink to that excess. Don't fall asleep in a place where people can't hear you scream if something happens. Don't go home with a group of strangers you barely know. They're not just vulnerable to rape, but what's to stop someone just stealing all of her stuff?

    That wasn't a hypothetical example. That first one was real. It happened to me. And the party was at MY house and I went to sleep in MY OWN bed. I went to bed because I was too drunk and woke up to find that I had been violated. Other people who lived in the house were up and there was no one there that we didn't know reasonably well, certainly well enough not to expect to steal our stuff. Or rape us. Apparently I was wrong about that one. Oops. My bad.


  • #208
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    leggo wrote: »
    Since 'victim-blaming' has become a thing, the consensus here seems to have swung so much in the other direction that any attempt to speak common sense or urge people to not leave themselves vulnerable, it's instantly dismissed as such. That's not good. And again, I'll repeat this until people understand, I don't suggest that we retrospectively blame women for their own suffering. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn lessons from cases that we learn about in order to prevent future incidents from happening.


    It's swung the other way and there's not enough caution being advised!?! I dare you to find a single woman in her twenties or thirties in Ireland who hasn't had the "Don't walk home alone, get a taxi driver you know, text when you're in the taxi, text after your date with someone, etc." advice hundreds of times since they were a teenager.


  • #209
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    Rape culture

    I can't stand ridiculous terms like this.


  • #210
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    I can't stand ridiculous terms like this.

    Why?


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  • #211
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    leggo wrote: »
    I also discussed how avoiding certain areas at certain times wasn't just a rape precaution, it was safety in general for all people. And the reply I got was something about "yeah well I'd avoid it not to get mugged, but not raped!" Just avoid a certain place altogether, it doesn't matter the exact reason. It makes you safer. What's the problem there?

    Everyone is also beating on the drum about how rape is more often by someone you know, as if people like myself on the other side aren't taking that into account or there's no way to protect against people you know. Aside from the fact that nearly every example of risky situations I've brought up in this thread falls under the latter scenario, there ARE ways you can be cautious about it.

    No one is saying don't exercise normal street smarts to protect yourself from crime. Just don't prioritise dress and behaviour in a discussion of rape prevention because it masks the true picture of rape scenarios, actively leading potential victims to neglect to protect themselves because the rape scenario in their heads is different to the more common one they may find themselves in. What is really needed to prevent rape is to allow the truth to eclipse the myth so that people have a clearer picture of how the more usual rape plays itself out so that they can protect themselves or will actually report it after the fact.


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