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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #4472
    kerryguy78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 218 ✭✭kerryguy78


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    You are fundementally mixed up.

    The public sector is not a profit centre, and as a result cannot return profit created to shareholders/owners/employees.

    Benchmarking is now rightly recognized as a vote-buying exercise of the government of the day, in conjunction with unions feathering their nests.

    I'm all for people recieving a fair wage for their work, but the fundamentals of public sector working life (stability, flex, pension) are being touted as valueless by some PS here, which just is not acceptable in the context of this arguement.

    I agree with you, but the vast amount in the public sector have lost touch with the reality that is the private sector. A friend of mine had a dentist appointment and was paid while she was at the dentists, yep she is public sector............


  • #4473
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    vinylbomb wrote: »

    Benchmarking is now rightly recognized as a vote-buying exercise of the government of the day, in conjunction with unions feathering their nests.

    I'll just ask the question that you and others are fond o
    Link ??


  • #4474
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    kerryguy78 wrote: »
    I agree with you, but the vast amount in the public sector have lost touch with the reality that is the private sector. A friend of mine had a dentist appointment and was paid while she was at the dentists, yep she is public sector............

    I worked in the private sector a decade ago and they has special allowance time that you could take off for things like dentist. Where i currently work in the public sector if i take time off to go to the dentist i will have to work that time up again.


  • #4475
    kerryguy78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 218 ✭✭kerryguy78


    woodoo wrote: »
    I worked in the private sector a decade ago and they has special allowance time that you could take off for things like dentist. Where i currently work in the public sector if i take time off to go to the dentist i will have to work that time up again.

    That is very very rare in the private sector, and unless this girl was tellin a lie, which i doubt it, she said she gets paid for stuff like that. I have no problem with cops and nurses getting well paid and reekin the rewards coz their jobs are hard and at times thankless. There is loads and loads of admin not up to the job and are a waste of money.


  • #4476
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    kerryguy78 wrote: »
    That is very very rare in the private sector, and unless this girl was tellin a lie, which i doubt it, she said she gets paid for stuff like that. I have no problem with cops and nurses getting well paid and reekin the rewards coz their jobs are hard and at times thankless. There is loads and loads of admin not up to the job and are a waste of money.

    There are 2 different private sectors in the country.

    The multinationals, and the rest.

    Seeing as the MNCs pay so little tax, they can look after their employees.


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  • #4477
    vinylbomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭vinylbomb


    Vizzy wrote: »
    I'll just ask the question that you and others are fond o
    Link ??

    Link to what?
    What part of my statement needs quantification or clarity?

    But sure what the hell. I'll bite.

    An oldie but a goldie.
    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1019286.shtml


  • #4478
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    Link to what?
    What part of my statement needs quantification or clarity?

    But sure what the hell. I'll bite.

    An oldie but a goldie.
    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1019286.shtml

    It will be the usual story of the semi state companies being included in the public service data. Skewing the results.


  • #4479
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭creedp


    sharper wrote: »
    You are fooling nobody.


    As I'm entitled to my opinion .. pot and kettle!


  • #4480
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    kerryguy78 wrote: »
    . There is loads and loads of admin not up to the job and are a waste of money.


    Link?

    This is completely made-up rubbish based on delusion.


  • #4481
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    Link to what?
    What part of my statement needs quantification or clarity?

    But sure what the hell. I'll bite.

    An oldie but a goldie.
    http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1019286.shtml

    One article by an opinionated blog in 2010 is enough to support a statement that
    vinylbomb wrote: »

    Benchmarking is now rightly recognized as a vote-buying exercise of the government of the day, in conjunction with unions feathering their nests.


    2010 is hardly now.

    Recognized is hardly one person's opinion.

    If one person recognises that animal as a duck, but everyone else thinks it's a turkey, it hardly makes it a duck.


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  • #4482
    skafish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 392 ✭✭skafish


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    Benchmarking is now rightly recognized as a vote-buying exercise of the government of the day, in conjunction with unions feathering their nests.

    As has been pointed out already, benchmarking gave the PS an average of 8.5%. The last round of paycuts meant that PS wages are now down in excess of 15%. IF it was a vote buying exercise, it was a very poor bargin.


  • #4483
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    skafish wrote: »
    As has been pointed out already, benchmarking gave the PS an average of 8.5%. The last round of paycuts meant that PS wages are now down in excess of 15%. IF it was a vote buying exercise, it was a very poor bargin.

    Its hilarious that some people seem to have airbrushed the cuts the PS have already taken out of existence.


  • #4484
    beeno67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    woodoo wrote: »
    Its hilarious that some people seem to have airbrushed the cuts the PS have already taken out of existence.

    For some people increments have airbrushed the cuts out of existence.


  • #4485
    beeno67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    skafish wrote: »
    As has been pointed out already, benchmarking gave the PS an average of 8.5%. The last round of paycuts meant that PS wages are now down in excess of 15%. IF it was a vote buying exercise, it was a very poor bargin.

    Excess of 15%. Yeah right


  • #4486
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    beeno67 wrote: »
    For some people increments have airbrushed the cuts out of existence.

    Hardly, if they're being paid ~15% less than the contract they signed up to states they should be.


  • #4487
    avalon68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭avalon68


    kerryguy78 wrote: »
    That is very very rare in the private sector, and unless this girl was tellin a lie, which i doubt it, she said she gets paid for stuff like that. I have no problem with cops and nurses getting well paid and reekin the rewards coz their jobs are hard and at times thankless. There is loads and loads of admin not up to the job and are a waste of money.

    But there are also loads of nurses and guards not up to the job.....that point seems to always be forgotten when it comes to these professions. By all means, if someone does a good job then pay them well, if someone doesnt, then sack them, be they a nurse, teacher, guard or bin collector.


  • #4488
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    kerryguy78 wrote: »
    in the public sector their employer is broke so they have to take cuts, simple as that
    +1. They are still very well paid, especially the middle and top public service.


  • #4489
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    kerryguy78 wrote: »
    I agree with you, but the vast amount in the public sector have lost touch with the reality that is the private sector. A friend of mine had a dentist appointment and was paid while she was at the dentists, yep she is public sector............

    The Public Sector arent paid by the hour they are paid an annual salary, if she took the time off for the dentist chances are she would have to work this up.


  • #4490
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    donalg1 wrote: »
    The Public Sector arent paid by the hour they are paid an annual salary, if she took the time off for the dentist chances are she would have to work this up.

    I work in the PS and yes, you get a salary (at my grade) - you are allowed time for medical appointments, but only if it´s an emergency and you can´t take the p1$$ by saying your GP is in Athlone!

    I, for one, am looking forward to reducing my hours to the 37 mentioned in CP2.1!


  • #4491
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    maryishere wrote: »
    +1. They are still very well paid, especially the middle and top public service.


    Link please to show 2012/13 figures to demonstrate that public servants in the middle and top are still very well paid?

    Otherwise this is more of the rubbish permeating this thread.


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  • #4492
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Back on topic here, does anyone have or has seen the draft legislation that the nurses union have seen?

    Or does anyone have a copy or information about the revised proposals?

    It would be interesting to compare and see how far the government has backed down and to guess whether it will be enough to get the unions on side?


  • #4493
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    The talks are a joke, from the rte site "It is understood there has been progress with SIPTU, with one proposal involving 1,000 additional intern positions for healthcare support staff to replace agency workers."

    So SIPTU's big idea is getting more workers to work for next to nothing as interns while current well paid members sit back and watch their increments and pensions pile up doing the exact same work.


  • #4494
    sarumite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Godge wrote: »
    It would be interesting to compare and see how far the government has backed down and to guess whether it will be enough to get the unions on side?

    Do we know for a fact that the government have backed down?


  • #4495
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    sarumite wrote: »
    Do we know for a fact that the government have backed down?

    the paycut is still part of the equation but seems to be clearer this time around that it is proposed to be restored in later years

    some other issues have certainly been sotftened to try and get the paycut through - most notably on increments and premium payments


  • #4496
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    sarumite wrote: »
    Do we know for a fact that the government have backed down?

    Yes, for a start it has been widely reported that the pay cut will be restored and dates set for that. gardai and nurses will retain double pay on sunday. Those are known.

    What is not known is how many other concessions they have made.


  • #4497
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭creedp


    donegal11 wrote: »
    The talks are a joke, from the rte site "It is understood there has been progress with SIPTU, with one proposal involving 1,000 additional intern positions for healthcare support staff to replace agency workers."

    So SIPTU's big idea is getting more workers to work for next to nothing as interns while current well paid members sit back and watch their increments and pensions pile up doing the exact same work.


    I know .. its terrible .. any agreement that achieves savings but does not involve cutting pay is a joke .. we want cuts .. we want cuts!


  • #4498
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, for a start it has been widely reported that the pay cut will be restored and dates set for that.

    actually it was part of the original proposal that pay be restored (for those under €100k) but there was no real clarity about how it would be done


  • #4499
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Godge wrote: »
    Link please to show 2012/13 figures to demonstrate that public servants in the middle and top are still very well paid?
    On Primetime it said that managers/ top public servants here were paid seven times what those at the bottom are paid - in Nordic countries it is three and a half times. I suppose if you are a public servant on 150k or 200k you may not consider that to be very well paid.


  • #4500
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    On Primetime it said that managers/ top public servants here were paid seven times what those at the bottom are paid - in Nordic countries it is three and a half times. I suppose if you are a public servant on 150k or 200k you may not consider that to be very well paid.

    I think you are at cross-purposes here, you are referring to income distribution, Godge was talking about whether people in the PS were paid more than in other sectors of the Irish economy.

    The amazing thing about Ireland is that people argue for socialism in PS pay, to each according their need and all that, while stoutly defending pay disparities elsewhere. That will simply result in a East/West German scenario where the able and talented on the socialist side will move to the market side.


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  • #4501
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    creedp wrote: »
    I know .. its terrible .. any agreement that achieves savings but does not involve cutting pay is a joke .. we want cuts .. we want cuts!

    Less cuts for current staff but at the expense of the lowest paid staff (healthcare support staff) entering there careers doing jobs that nurses wouldn't touch for potentially the dole HURRAY for the unions.


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