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Free Travel Scheme posts split from Bus Eireann strike thread
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The move I've seen on the 27 is 2 come charging on at the same time. The first one flashes a bit of paper and they both run to the stairs. If the drive calls the second one back the first one passes back the pass really quickly so the driver thinks they both have one. I've seen them do it a bunch of times.
Meanwhile my fares go up and up way out of line with inflation
Very true, and I just love catching them. Pass confiscated and fares paid or start walking.
Of course that doesn't really solve the problem as passes are just reissued.0 -
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And unfortunately the distinguishing colour bands have been removed because oaps claimed it was contrary to their cicvil liberties to be identified as an oap.
The absolute shambles which the Free Travel Scheme has been allowed to become can be deduced in part from the "Coloured Bands" issue itself.
The original identifiers on the Corn Flakes Box style Free Travel Pass were not alone simple,but also of some assistance to Drivers attempting to perform their duties effectively.
Blue Band was for Holders over 66 Years of age for time limited travel.
Buff Band was for Disability Benefit recipients,non age specific also Time limited travel.
Red Band was for Unlimited Travel,no restrictions.
To each of these could be added a Green Band,which signified Companion Status.
It can be appreciated,particularly by anybody familiar with access control,that under the old system anybody under 66 attempting to fraudently use a Pass belonging to a Pensioner would stand a far greater chance of a Busdriver noticing the discrepancy,as I did on many many occasions.
However,following Seamus Brennans decision to abolish the Time Restriction,then (then) Department of Social Protection decided that since all Free Travel was now unrestricted,all newly issued Free Passes would therefore be Red Band.
This single decision,taken by a faceless Civil Servant immediately ended the simplest method of checking Free Pass usage and validity.
The position on the new Public Services Card is even worse....
Currently,although each card will have the relevant details encoded on its "Chip",the DSP maintain that it may be used in "Flash Pass " mode,as with the Corn Flakes Box today.
Interestingly,the image used by DoubleTrouble,features an Expiry Date,which one would imagine to be a standard feature of any such card,however,in other images used in Publicity Material,the Expiry Date is replaced by the PPS Number and a Signature.
It is my firm belief that all Free Travel Passes must have an expiry date,if only to allow for the simplest housekeeping to be performed on the system.
The initial hopes that the DSP would embrace LeapCard as it's Free Travel application persisted right up to the launch,with the DSP only deciding to plump for it's own specific version of the PS Card at a late stage.
It is unlikely that the DSP has the resources necesssary to embark on any meaningful roll-out of the PS Card apart from the 200 per week target currently set for DSP Area Offices.
This raises the spectre of an even more chaotic situation developing as old and new are forced to co-exist for several years.
The concerns of posters that we are overlooking the great Social Benefits of the Free Travel Scheme,particularly for the elderly,are of course,a given...However,few appear to be concerned that these elderly represent less than half of the legitimate user base,yet will for sure,feel the loss greatest when the edifice collapses under the weight of mismanagement,or non-management.
I would again recommend a read of the 2000 TCD Study in the "Free Schemes" with Free Travel being covered from page 43.
http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf
It is sobering to note that the warning signs were being clearly flagged 13 years ago,but nobody appeared interested...
For example on Page 32."It is difficult to accurately assess the number of people in receipt of Free Travel,as the figures relate only to the number of Passes issued,and do not take account of the low number of Passes returned when recipients die or cease to qualify.In addition,a certain number of passes are re-issued annually due to loss,this figure amounting to almost 15,000 in 1998."
Follwed by,on page 71..."However,it was never the case that Free Travel would be supplied "free" by CIE.Payment was originally made on a full fares forgone basis,but as the cost of the scheme increased a discount of 40% was negotiated with CIE in 1969.This discount was negotiated by "Hard Bargaining" and not on any calculated format based on spare capacity or off-peak usage."
With the study being based on the 1998 total of 533,000 Pass Holders at a total cost of IR£32.6 Million we can see that things have not improved in the past 13 years ....Is anybody even interested anymore ???
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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According to figures posted this year roughly around 300,000 passes had been issued in total ,
Love to see the actual facts surrounding 1.1 million passes with links to the info ,
This is one of the problems with the whole issue
Various figures thrown around ,there saying its costing the government 60+ million a year,
Using the figures 1.1 million passes that only works out at 1 bus trip a week for a year for each pass holder give or take ,
it doesn't actually sound as bad does it ,
Something doesn't sound right at all with all the uproar for instance is there any way the transport companies could be audited to prove there figures there asking payments aren't been over inflated ,
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According to figures posted this year roughly around 300,000 passes had been issued in total ,
Love to see the actual facts surrounding 1.1 million passes with links to the info ,
This is one of the problems with the whole issue
Various figures thrown around ,there saying its costing the government 60+ million a year,
Using the figures 1.1 million passes that only works out at 1 bus trip a week for a year for each pass holder give or take ,
it doesn't actually sound as bad does it ,
Something doesn't sound right at all with all the uproar for instance is there any way the transport companies could be audited to prove there figures there asking payments aren't been over inflated ,
Hi Gatling.
Just to clear up some misunderstandings here.
The most recent statistics from the Dept of Social Protection are in its Annual Report for 2011.
The totals can be found on page 111.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2011stats.pdf
The total number of Passholders was 726,412.
The total Number of Passholders of Pensionable Age was 346,769
The figure of 1.1 Million,as given to the Dáil Public Accounts Committee by the DSP's Secretary General,Niamh O'Donoghue,is an estimate of the total number of persons covered when Spousal/Partner/Companion cover is included.
I understand that an interim figure for 2012 of 740,000 Passholders was recently given to the Dáil but I cannot presently locate a link.
Since not every Free Pass Holder has the same entitlement,the total figure is not merely double the number of Passholders,but the Sec Gen did say she was confident that 1.1 Million was an accurate figure
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As for Audits,it is abundantly clear that for decades the Free Travel Scheme has been operated along the most incredibly loose lines,with little or no attempt to carry out Audits or Analyses of any of its aspects.
Again,I would refer those interested to the last independent study from 2000,which whilst totally out of date statistically speaking,is still very relevant in every other way.
http://www.tcd.ie/policy-institute/assets/pdf/BP5_Quinn_Free_Schemes.pdf
Page 77 for example, refers to Scheme Controls....Department officials conduct unannounced surveys of usage to review the accuracy of claims made.Evidence from these surveys indicates that there is potential for excess claims.For example,surveys carried out on 4 randomly selected companies resulted in savings of over IR£140,000 to the Department.
Further on,the report states...A CIE survey carried out by it's Inspectors in 1995 on Dublin Bus found that approximately 8% of the 500 Free Passes checked were fraudulent
The report further identified several reasons contributing to the overall fraudulent use of Free Passes,notably...* Because the Free Travel Scheme is administrative,with no statutory basis,the Department has no legislative grounds on which to prosecute offenders who use invalid or forged Free Passes,therefore there is little or no actual deterrent.
* There is no expiry date on Free Passes,they are generally issued for life.More than 17,000 Social Welfare pensioners over the age of 66 died in 1998 alone.In addition more than 11% of surveyed respondents stated that they had lost their Free Travel Pass on one or more occasions.A number of these Free Passes could still be in circulation due to the inadequacy of the Departments recall procedures when a person dies or ceases to qualify.
* There is no proper identification on many Free Passes.Photo ID passes exist only in the Urban Centres.The survey indicated that only 47% of respondents have a photo-ID pass.
As you can see Gatling,for the past 13 years at least,this National Scheme has simply existed,with nobody having responsibility for it,nobody being interested in it,and most assuredly,nobody prepared to admit that it was unsustainable if not brought under control PDQ.
Is it any wonder we are now at this point ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Thanks for the info Alex ,
I'm pro change on the pass system id love to see it abolished over night and totally replaced with a new system with stipulation's on who's actually entitled to one ,rather than the situation we currently have this comes from a pass holder ,
Had a discussion before with some serious tech geeks one of the idea's suggested was use thumb scanners to replace the passes that way they couldn't be copied or forged or misused down side the cost of implementation of such a system
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Tickityboo wrote: »Don't think so Foggy!!
I checked out the father in laws when he got it legit (66) .
nothing printed on it except the words partner or spouse.
He wasn't even asked for i.d. when he went in to get his photo taken.
Its printed on the inside that partner/ spouse must also sign the pass,
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Quite correct, spouse is not named and may be refused travel if it isn't signed by them.
Which usually results in them signing it in front of driver. I'm regularly surprised by how many are not signed by either pass holder or spouse, it's the reason I carry a spare pen.
That reminds me actually :O
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wolfpawnat wrote: ».
As I said already, a 5e fee per person, it would be some increase in revenue. Most unemployed people are on less than a pension (well I am on less that my MIL anyway) and still have to pay to travel. If I can afford e25 for a ticket when needed, they can afford e5.
Also I thought you had to have a white little plastic Travel Pass card with ID photos on it with the paper pass. On the trains I have seen people being pulled a side and told the paper pass alone was not sufficient and there are many occasions I can recall the revenue protection lads ringing the station about it and trying to get them verified.
I think IE are doing everything in their power to prevent fraud and I would like to see DB and BE drivers do the same. Though a few times I have seen DB drivers not taking BS and radioing in warnings to the station that there is a person dressed like such and such on the X road trying to use a fake pass, so some really are making an effort!!!
As explained before,The DSP operate a mind-bogglingly arcane ID system which States that only Passholders resident in specific "Urban Areas" (Dublin,Cork City,Galway City,Waterford City and Limerick City...note that these specfically refer to "City" with the execption of Dublin.) require a Photo-ID card,all others verify by signature.
As to gbob's point re the signature verification....Which usually results in them signing it in front of driver. I'm regularly surprised by how many are not signed by either pass holder or spouse, it's the reason I carry a spare pen.
Whilst this may be possible on long dwell single point boarding services,it is a nightmare on BAC routes.
Generally,the "chancers" will have their Free Travel Document well wrapped and usually with specific areas obscured in a number of ways.
The Free Pass cardboard element (The Corn Flakes Box) tends to be well washed,sometimes quite obviously far more than the holder,but if it is removed from whatever Plastic Covering remains,sometimes the original details will have transferred to the plastic.
I have detected several individuals travelling on passes belonging to the opposite sex in this manner,HOWEVER..to do this will cause significant and unwanted delays for those of my customers who HAVE paid a fare and are entitled to as fast a journey as possible.
The "chancers" are well aware of this situation and play to this flaw with the result that it is essentially a free-for-all on BAC services.
On the occasions when I have required a signature I have usually been told that the individual cannot write (but can subsequently sit down an text merrily away) and can only make an X.
So,there you have it...a remarkable scheme indeed,one which was innovative,Socially Mould Breaking and far ahead of its time back in 1967.
However,in keeping with how we run our Country,our Administrators did'nt really appreciate what they had devised,and as with LeapCard 36 years later,they simply throw the thing out there and hope it'll be alright.
Will heads roll.....will they fcuxx !!! Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Bmaxi,the ID requirement is determined by the address of the Passsholder,not their departure point.
Thus a Passholder resident in Limerick County,does not require a photo-ID to travel on Limerick City Services,but a Limerick City dweller requires Photo-ID to travel to/in Limerick City & County or anywhere else.
OK, I know what I meant but I suppose I could have made it clearer.
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