Free Travel Scheme posts split from Bus Eireann strike thread

gbob

Trampas wrote: »

Fares have gone up recently anyway so you don't know if the extra euro a week will not drive people off the bus and thus cost the company more.

Up taxes/prices seems to be the answer to all questions when asked to unions for semi-state/public sector instead of reducing costs.

To many people have budgeted on total wage instead of basic wage.

Are bus drivers not allowed bring a packed lunch with them on the bus that they require a meal allowance?

I realise fares are way overpriced as they are but what I'm suggesting is a one euro flat charge on free travel passes. Would solve a lot of problems for BE.

Patser

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that private operators can be paid a subsidy to do this? http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/ma-coaches-ballyragget-wins-contract-for-new-publicly-funded-bus-route/

Interesting example Victor, as M&A coaches that run that subsidised service don't accept free travel passes. They only offer a reduced fare for pass holders. If that option was made available to all Public transport there'd be no issue here.

Edit: Just to add link to their fares

http://www.mandacoaches.com/Routes.html

devnull

miller50841 wrote: »

I never said anything about restricting time there are plenty of people using fake/forged passes and bringing their friends along for free when they only have the pass for themselves.

I think most of us on here will agree that the whole situation with free travel is unsustainable the way it is, that people can go up and down the country to their hearts content at any time anywhere and the taxpayer picks up the bill and there are also a large amount of free passes going around.

The fact is what should happen is all of these cheap easy to fake paper passes should be abolished and they should be replaced with a LEAP Card which has a photo of the person on it and is fitted with smartcard function that requires validation like ramblers which would make it easier to disable should fraud arise.

Many people will argue that their civil liberties will be infringed no doubt by having their photo placed on the pass, but if the taxpayer is paying for them to travel up and down the country for free to their hearts content, I think they have a right to ensure that it's not being used by people handing the pass to each other with no way of checking who the owner is.

Peppa Pig

devnull wrote: »

The fact is what should happen is all of these cheap easy to fake paper passes should be abolished and they should be replaced with a LEAP Card which has a photo of the person on it and is fitted with smartcard function that requires validation like ramblers which would make it easier to disable should fraud arise.

Is this not what is being rolled out? The new DSP card with photo id given to everyone who gets a social welfare payment. I think they will include free travel allowance.

It will eliminate fraud for sure and is a joke that in 2013 it is only being rolled out.
But is it going to increase BE revenue, though? If BE get a set amount per pass then their sub will not change. There will just be less people on the buses so you may actually see less routes.

Victor

currins_02 wrote: »

On some of the privates they actually take down the number and details of every pass, I beleive when using an NI pass on a BE cross border service the number is noted so why aren't they at least noted on express way and commuter services, maybe not city services for practical reasons, that is bound to save a considerable sum (and provide statistical information for lobbying for greater payments for pass passengers in future).

Not really on topic, but there is little need to record every Free Travel Scheme transaction as (a) they are getting what is basically a fixed fee (b) there are intermittent usage surveys. Checking does need to happen, as it is a basic revenue protection issue.

Patser

Victor wrote: »

Analysis of the PSO indicated it was too high, so it was cut.

I'd love to see that analysis since they recently announce it was based on 1973 figures and that they've no idea how many free travel passes are out there

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/70m-paid-yearly-for-free-travel-passes-225487.html

Quote from article:

Department secretary general Niamh O’Donoghue said she did not know why a survey of users had not been carried out since 1973. But she also said the department was probably making a saving as free travel numbers had most probably increased since then.

SandyfordGuy

Free travel and subsidy are separate

KCAccidental

Victor wrote: »

Analysis of the PSO indicated it was too high, so it was cut.

and what about the massive disparity in the cost of free travel and what is paid to BE by the government.

should BE not be clawing this money back too? I mean it is losing money hand over fist.

bmaxi

KCAccidental wrote: »

and what about the massive disparity in the cost of free travel and what is paid to BE by the government.

should BE not be clawing this money back too? I mean it is losing money hand over fist.

I'm at a loss to see just what the free travel scheme costs BE. Most services travel with empty seats, if those seats are taken by travel pass holders and BE is paid a subsidy to carry them, then surely that's a gain for BE. The only other logical answer would be to cut services and, by extension, cut staff, not a good result for the workers. If the free travel scheme was axed tomorrow, so would the subsidy, how is that going to help BE?

AlekSmart

cdebru wrote: »

The whole thing was a set up start to finish. There was no need for any industrial action.

Rumour yesterday was BE wanted a 10% pay cut for everyone but 10% is 13 million not 5. Expect a 4%cut across the board.makes it look like the unions did a good deal. Varadkars comment yesterday was part of the play make it look like he wants a strike.

The one positive element to emerge from the smoke and mirrors was the confirmation that the Minister of the Day is the dei-facto point of reference for CIE group management.

Leo V's inability to maintain a discreet silence when confronted with a microphone (a trait shared by more than one Transport Minister) meant that he was able to confirm just how enmeshed Bus Eireann's supposed "Independent Management Structure" was with Government policy.

The importance of getting the Croke Park deal sorted away before BE were to act,was somewhat underlined by Minister V's "request" to BE to hold-off in anticipation of a Croke Park acceptance.

When CP was rejected,somebody in BE management took Leo at his word and immediately pressed the red-button,catching everybody a bit off balance.

I actually like Leo V's style,as it appears he is totally uncoachable in media terms which allows us to get a clearer understanding of how the cards are stacked.

There was a great expectation,when Leo was elevated to Transport,that he would be the axeman for the CIE group...the final countdown as it were ...

However,Leo wouldnt be the first politician to reassess his position once the actual situation was revealed to him by the Departmental Senior Civil Servants.

The value to an under seige Government,of a single centrally administered Transport Group prepared to offer the totality of it's services Free at point of use to c.33% of a country's Adult Population is not all about the actual €'s paid.

One notes that the expressions of interest stated after Colm McCarthy's "An Bórd Snip" excercise never progresssed beyond that initial stage,as I would expect from any commercial enterprise when it got to peruse the actual figures as opposed to the publicised one's.

Can you imagine the Chief Accounting Officer of Stagecoach,Veolia or RATP digesting the relevant information....

* c.33% of the Adult Population entitled to Free Public Transport

* A Free Travel scheme with it's funding frozen at 2010 levels.

* The Executive in charge of the scheme quite clear that she has devised a system which allows for annual increases in qualifying persons with no no further increases in funding.

* This Executive,also has no problem with admitting that Her Department has only recently been able to confirm actual numbers of passes issued.

* Further to this,The Departmental Sec Gen also has no explanation for,or problem with,40 year old statistics being utilized to allocate the funding between the various modes.

* The responsible Department also cannot provide up-to-date figures on Abuse/Fraud,of and within,the scheme,possibly due to it's non-statutory footing,which makes Legal Action against such occurences virtually impossible.

These points,and more besides,would not be of any great import if they referred to 5% of the overall business,but in our specifically Irish case we are talking of c.50%,if not more, of customer footfall.

When all the coloured smoke has cleared and the landscape is once again visible,the reality that Leo V found when he leafed through the "confidential" statistics,hit home.

For the range and scope of services it provides,the CIE group is giving the State a great deal,which will most certainly not be matched by any similarly structured private sector operator.

Leo V is no fool,just as Seamus B,Mammy and Mary Harney (Min for Health yes,but dei-facto Min for Transport) were'nt fools either.

cdebru

AlekSmart wrote: »

The one positive element to emerge from the smoke and mirrors was the confirmation that the Minister of the Day is the dei-facto point of reference for CIE group management.

Leo V's inability to maintain a discreet silence when confronted with a microphone (a trait shared by more than one Transport Minister) meant that he was able to confirm just how enmeshed Bus Eireann's supposed "Independent Management Structure" was with Government policy.

The importance of getting the Croke Park deal sorted away before BE were to act,was somewhat underlined by Minister V's "request" to BE to hold-off in anticipation of a Croke Park acceptance.

When CP was rejected,somebody in BE management took Leo at his word and immediately pressed the red-button,catching everybody a bit off balance.

I actually like Leo V's style,as it appears he is totally uncoachable in media terms which allows us to get a clearer understanding of how the cards are stacked.

There was a great expectation,when Leo was elevated to Transport,that he would be the axeman for the CIE group...the final countdown as it were ...

However,Leo wouldnt be the first politician to reassess his position once the actual situation was revealed to him by the Departmental Senior Civil Servants.

The value to an under seige Government,of a single centrally administered Transport Group prepared to offer the totality of it's services Free at point of use to c.33% of a country's Adult Population is not all about the actual €'s paid.

One notes that the expressions of interest stated after Colm McCarthy's "An Bórd Snip" excercise never progresssed beyond that initial stage,as I would expect from any commercial enterprise when it got to peruse the actual figures as opposed to the publicised one's.

Can you imagine the Chief Accounting Officer of Stagecoach,Veolia or RATP digesting the relevant information....

* c.33% of the Adult Population entitled to Free Public Transport

* A Free Travel scheme with it's funding frozen at 2010 levels.

* The Executive in charge of the scheme quite clear that she has devised a system which allows for annual increases in qualifying persons with no no further increases in funding.

* This Executive,also has no problem with admitting that Her Department has only recently been able to confirm actual numbers of passes issued.

* Further to this,The Departmental Sec Gen also has no explanation for,or problem with,40 year old statistics being utilized to allocate the funding between the various modes.

* The responsible Department also cannot provide up-to-date figures on Abuse/Fraud,of and within,the scheme,possibly due to it's non-statutory footing,which makes Legal Action against such occurences virtually impossible.

These points,and more besides,would not be of any great import if they referred to 5% of the overall business,but in our specifically Irish case we are talking of c.50%,if not more, of customer footfall.

When all the coloured smoke has cleared and the landscape is once again visible,the reality that Leo V found when he leafed through the "confidential" statistics,hit home.

For the range and scope of services it provides,the CIE group is giving the State a great deal,which will most certainly not be matched by any similarly structured private sector operator.

Leo V is no fool,just as Seamus B,Mammy and Mary Harney (Min for Health yes,but dei-facto Min for Transport) were'nt fools either.

100% correct, I laugh when i hear these "privatise it " comments go ahead and lets see the government try and cut the pso then. Nevermind the free travel scheme, anyone seriously believe first bus or arriva will accept that current model.

Grandeeod

Abolish the Free Travel Scheme.

I read a very funny story in Tuesdays papers. An OAP in Cork who always uses the bus, because she has free travel. Because of the strike, her daughter dropped her into the city, but, get this, she had to get a TAXI home!

Hilly Bill

Whats funny about that? an OAP gets a taxi home? Have i missed something here?

wayne040576

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Whats funny about that? an OAP gets a taxi home? Have i missed something here?

I was thinking the exact same thing??

Victor

The exact means of funding the CIE group companies is not publicly known.

What is known, is that certain information can be gleaned from the the company accounts: http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=310

Heading Amount Comments

Commercial and schools transport

€218,502,000

Expressway and schools transport. Fares, including Free Travel Scheme, advertising, etc.
Public Services - Stage Carriage

€42,833,000

Fares, including Free Travel Scheme, advertising, etc.
Public Services - City

€22,350,000

Fares, including Free Travel Scheme, advertising, etc.
Interest receivable

€574,000

.
Public Service Obligation payment

€43,403,000

Paid by NTA via CIÉ
Exceptional item

€2,300,000

Money that was previously set aside for redundancies, but not spent

1. The amount paid from the Free Travel Scheme is to cover the fares of those who participate in the scheme. The whole scheme is worth in the order of €61m, but Bus Éireann only receive a fraction of this. The bulk would go to Irish Rail and Dublin Bus, who each carry a lot more passengers. A small amount goes to private operators of bus and ferry services.

When it was first conceived, the Free Travel Scheme created a virtuous circle of effects - pensioners could travel for free, transport operators got a revenue on services they would be operating with vacant seats and the government could provide for pensioners. What became problematic was the change in the hours of the scheme about 10 year ago and users were allowed use peak time services. Peak time services are the most expensive services to operate for public transport operators - capacity has to be created that can't be used at off-peak times.

2. The Public Service Obligation (PSO) amount is paid for socially necessary but unprofitable services. That is routes that there is demand for, e.g. routes between home, work, study, retail, medical, etc. where if the service wasn't provided, it would impair people's ability to avail of these services. However, for various reasons, these aren't always financially viable, e.g. low population density, traffic congestion increasing costs for decreased income, etc. The NTA have a mechanism for calculating how socially desirable a service is on their website.

As the NTA control the maximum fares on PSO routes, including special fares for children and schoolchildren, it can be somewhat said that the PSO payment covers that. However, note that with families, child or family fares are an important part of attracting them to public transport over the car.

3. There is no direct link between the Free Travel Scheme and the Public Service Obligation payment.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Whats funny about that? an OAP gets a taxi home? Have i missed something here?

Yeah, you have missed something and its not just "an OAP getting a taxi home". Quote the rest of my post.

One of the biggest defenses argued in favour of CIEs financial position is the "free travel". Be it OAPs or social welfare recepients. Free travel is Free travel no matter what way you look at it. The particular example I quoted highlighted that the person in question was able to take a taxi home. Full stop. Take the Charlie Haughey burden away from CIE. Remove the excuses. No more free travel for anybody. You want to use a CIE service, you pay for it.

cdebru

Grandeeod wrote: »

Yeah, you have missed something and its not just "an OAP getting a taxi home". Quote the rest of my post.

One of the biggest defenses argued in favour of CIEs financial position is the "free travel". Be it OAPs or social welfare recepients. Free travel is Free travel no matter what way you look at it. The particular example I quoted highlighted that the person in question was able to take a taxi home. Full stop. Take the Charlie Haughey burden away from CIE. Remove the excuses. No more free travel for anybody. You want to use a CIE service, you pay for it.

Ah I get what you meant now, you were suggesting that they could afford a taxi so why do they need free travel.

Well I guess the taxi might be affordable as a one off but not on a regular basis, personally I don't have a problem with free travel for OAPs I think they have earned it, But someone has to pay for it.

I do object to every junkie skank in Dublin having one though. There has been a massive proliferation of free travel passes in the last 10/15 years and the current design of them means that once you get one you have it for life.

Gatling

Hmmm I seriously hate when comes to free pass bashing.
Most of us who have a pass don't travel the length and breath of the country on train's a and buses that's a fact most people use them for doctors appointments and weekly shopping ,
Now i do agree there needs to be a massive overhall of the system ,one of the issues on buses mainly Dublin bus isnt just the free passes its fare evasions personally I travel from tallaght to the city centre once a week using my pass now I use the same bus route every week ,90% of people who get on the bus pay the minimum fare available and travel to the city centre then throw in the (pocket tappers ) usually older people with a bag who board the bus and tell the driver I've a pass in my pocket or buried in my bag driver tell them to go on ,
Its a three fold problem add the downturn and less people using the transport system in general,

Change the pass system strictly photo id
Enforce correct fare payments ,
Give drivers powers to ensure proper payments

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

The exact means of funding the CIE group companies is not publicly known.



1. The amount paid from the Free Travel Scheme is to cover the fares of those who participate in the scheme. The whole scheme is worth in the order of €61m, but Bus Éireann only receive a fraction of this. The bulk would go to Irish Rail and Dublin Bus, who each carry a lot more passengers. A small amount goes to private operators of bus and ferry services.

When it was first conceived, the Free Travel Scheme created a virtuous circle of effects - pensioners could travel for free, transport operators got a revenue on services they would be operating with vacant seats and the government could provide for pensioners. What became problematic was the change in the hours of the scheme about 10 year ago and users were allowed use peak time services. Peak time services are the most expensive services to operate for public transport operators - capacity has to be created that can't be used at off-peak times.

2. The Public Service Obligation (PSO) amount is paid for socially necessary but unprofitable services. That is routes that there is demand for, e.g. routes between home, work, study, retail, medical, etc. where if the service wasn't provided, it would impair people's ability to avail of these services. However, for various reasons, these aren't always financially viable, e.g. low population density, traffic congestion increasing costs for decreased income, etc. The NTA have a mechanism for calculating how socially desirable a service is on their website.

As the NTA control the maximum fares on PSO routes, including special fares for children and schoolchildren, it can be somewhat said that the PSO payment covers that. However, note that with families, child or family fares are an important part of attracting them to public transport over the car.

3. There is no direct link between the Free Travel Scheme and the Public Service Obligation payment.

It's worth pointing out that the Free Travel Scheme Total allocation is c.€77 Million of which the CIE group allocation is €61 Million.

The problem for the "Independent" CIE companies is the methodology used to distribute the funding between the companies is based upon 1973 travel figures.

This has led to some very substantial position statements between the 3 companies as each obviously wants to maximize it's allocation.

Initially the Free Travel Scheme compensated the companies at the actual rate of travel,however 2 years after it's introduction,the Government of the Day negotiated/instructed a 40% discount for the Department,this figure apparently plucked arbitrarily out of the ether.

So Dublin Bus,for example gets 60%,but we do not know which actual Fare that is a percentage of.....is it the €1.65 or the €2.80,because that gives us either €0.99c or €1.68 per button push.

The entire setup of the Free Travel Scheme was always clouded in secrecy,particularly the issue of payments to the companies.

What we now know is that the actual level of payment and the division of it has little actual relevance to the current cost of providing the service to the DSP's customers.

Whilst Victor mentions Seamus Brennans abolition of the Peak Time restriction,which incidentally,was quite strongly resisted by officials within his own department,the reality is that it is no longer the main cause of the Funding Crisis now enveloping the scheme.

The most significant element to challenge the Free Travel Scheme's viability was the expansion of it's coverage to Non-OAP's.

The current situation,which has less than 50% of Free Travel Passes issued to holders of Pension Age,means that c.500,000 individuals (Holders & Spouse/Partner/Companion) of employable age do not have to pay for Public Transport within the State.

It is a situation which cannot be sustained,except with the active co-operation and controlability of a State Overseen Public Transport operator.

What we,as in the citizenry,have to decide is whether we value the Free Travel Scheme enough to allow the Status-Quo to be maintained,or we trust in the Free Market to allow competition to set and maintain Fares low enough to be affordable by those currently travelling for nowt.

I found this article to be of interest,particularly the final line....

http://irishsocialcapital.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/review-of-expensive-free-travel-scheme-essential-a-huge-social-capital-topic/

Free travel now accounts for one-fifth of all journeys on intercity trains.

:eek:

Jamie2k9

If there isn't a review of the free travel scheme if the near future it will be of great concern to CIE. We are an ageing population and in less than 30 years if nothing is done there will be more pass holders than fare paying passengers!!. Seem as the current figures are based on 1973 we will be lucky if we have the year 2043 based on 2013 figures. Its a discrase that the DoSP doesn't know what numbers have passes and that payments are based on 1973, is it any wonder that half the people on social welfare know the system inside out and well and commit fraud. Its time that Joan Burton and co. get a grip and deal with problems instead of putting them on the long finger.

foggy_lad

They could start by making it a means tested benefit and could include the rest if the houshold benefit payments.

gbob

foggy_lad wrote: »

They could start by making it a means tested benefit and coyld inckude the reat if the houshold benefit package in that.

That makes about as much sense as your usual posts !

Gatling

Considering the numbers I get DA along with 99,000 others who also have a bus pass ,
Social welfare issue passes to 99,000 (others ) they don't say what that "others" actually are getting them for ,90+000 carers if I'm correct

Means testing could work ,

I'd prefer a leap style card or a strictly controlled bus pass system photo id + signature and trackable if possible
I've seen up to 6 people board a bus with one flash of a piece of paper some junkie claiming there all covered on the pass

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

Considering the numbers I get DA along with 99,000 others who also have a bus pass ,
Social welfare issue passes to 99,000 (others ) they don't say what that "others" actually are getting them for ,90+000 carers if I'm correct

Means testing could work ,

I'd prefer a leap style card or a strictly controlled bus pass system photo id + signature and trackable if possible
I've seen up to 6 people board a bus with one flash of a piece of paper some junkie claiming there all covered on the pass

Any pass or card is only going to be as effective at reducing fraud as those who should be policing it. First line of defence is railway ticket checkers and bus drivers. .

Owryan

I use my pass to travel by train from Carlow to Kilkenny once a week for traveling to hospital.

In Carlow they just give me the sw ticket for a single trip but in Kilkenny I get a return and the ticket will have the last 3 digits of my pps number on it .

cdebru

daheff wrote: »

i've just renewed my annual train/bus ticket (because i need both to get to work -train only goes to heuston i go to city centre ). 1400 euros. Last year it was 1250.

if they increase it again then its CHEAPER to travel by car and more convenient.

so tell me again why we have public transport??

1 million free travel passes, CIE gets 60 million euro for those that is 60 euro a year for a bus and train ticket, completely unsustainable that is why you pay 1400 they are only paying 60.

No such thing as free travel, you are the one pa

doubletrouble?

foggy_lad wrote: »

Any pass or card is only going to be as effective at reducing fraud as those who should be policing it. First line of defence is railway ticket checkers and bus drivers. .

Foggy there are so many different types of S/W. passes alone that with the exception of inspectors most front line staff are not trained in what these different types are for, then if they were to check every pass it would cause massive delays each time. A.F.I.K you only need photo i.d. within dublin, waterford and cork when using your pass (please correct me if i'm wrong on these counties or have left out one or two). now take into account that some D.B. routes enter the surrounding counties of dublin where no photo i.d. is required this now becomes a major headache for most of these drivers. this problem can only and is only getting worse especially where scams are concerned.

AlekSmart

cdebru wrote: »

1 million free travel passes, CIE gets 60 million euro for those that is 60 euro a year for a bus and train ticket, completely unsustainable that is why you pay 1400 they are only paying 60.

No such thing as free travel, you are the one pa

Perhaps simplistic,but nonetheless accurate.

With an annual CIE "All Services" Pass retailing today at €5,340,we have a ballpark figure for the value of a DSP document.

Allowing for the fact that the CIE retail product is not valid on Private Services or Island Helicopters,I would suggest €5,000 as a fair assessment,considering the unrestricted nature of the DSP document.

The numbers of legitimate Free Pass holders now stands >740,000,with persons covered coming in at >1.1 Million.

The math,as the yanks might say,do my head in,but one can see there is a significant gulf between the €77 Million paid by the DSP and the c.€5K per person value of the Pass itself.

With all PT operators now struggling to adapt to the new environment,we are witnessing two differing approaches to the issue.

With the DSP not entertaining any further Free Travel claims the Operators are either Not Accepting Free Travel scrip,or,as in the case of the CIE companies,cutting back on service levels in an attempt to match the 2010 levels of funding.

Whilst the Secretary General of the DSP may well believe it is a viable proposition to state that her Department can continue to add ever more users to the scheme,whilst maintaining funding at 2010 levels,the reality is different.

The realization is only beginning to dawn in many circles that we have a serious problem here.

Anybody who questions the current situation tends to be deemed anti-social or in some way against-the Poor etc etc.

However,for me,the,now very real,threat of the entire scheme collapsing should be focusing the minds of everybody concerned.

The original Free Travel Scheme was a bold and innovative step by a Country not renowned for such things,and I consider it a disgrace that we have now reached this situation.

First Step required,in my opinion,is to revert to the original intended situation....Old Age Pension recipients ONLY,with NO Spouse/Partner entitlement. which would immediately halve the numbers.

Then enter into negotiations with the Service Providers for a realistically funded,viable Concessionary Travel scheme,now much easier achieved through Smart-Card technology.

However there is no time left for studies,reports or the likes....This scheme is in serious difficulty and will not last much longer before collapsing altogether and bringing a hell of a lot more down along with it.

foggy_lad

Owryan wrote: »

I use my pass to travel by train from Carlow to Kilkenny once a week for traveling to hospital.

In Carlow they just give me the sw ticket for a single trip but in Kilkenny I get a return and the ticket will have the last 3 digits of my pps number on it .

That is just Irish rails way of artificially inflating passenger numbers. They give all sw pass holders return tickets unless they ask for a single. You should be getting the return from Carlow and you are only doing two journeys but on their books you are down for three.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

That is just Irish rails way of artificially inflating passenger numbers. They give all sw pass holders return tickets unless they ask for a single. You should be getting the return from Carlow and you are only doing two journeys but on their books you are down for three.

Foggy,my man,have you sent this evidence to the relevant authorities ?

I should imagine the NTA and the DSP would be interested as might the Gardai..as it amounts to fraud ...

Jamie2k9

If you want a return ticket you have to say the word "return" how are staff in Carlow to know you coming back on the same day OP? Are they mind readers as well as ticketing staff.

Its Kilkenny staff here that are in the wrong they should not be giving out return tickets unless you are going back on the same day and you make that clear to them.

Gatling

doubletrouble? wrote: »

Foggy there are so many different types of S/W. passes alone that with the exception of inspectors most front line staff are not trained in what these different types are for, then if they were to check every pass it would cause massive delays each time. A.F.I.K you only need photo i.d. within dublin, waterford and cork when using your pass (please correct me if i'm wrong on these counties or have left out one or two). now take into account that some D.B. routes enter the surrounding counties of dublin where no photo i.d. is required this now becomes a major headache for most of these drivers. this problem can only and is only getting worse especially where scams are concerned.

There's 3 SW passes distinguished by its color band ,

gbob

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps simplistic,but nonetheless accurate.

With an annual CIE "All Services" Pass retailing today at €5,340,we have a ballpark figure for the value of a DSP document.

Allowing for the fact that the CIE retail product is not valid on Private Services or Island Helicopters,I would suggest €5,000 as a fair assessment,considering the unrestricted nature of the DSP document.

The numbers of legitimate Free Pass holders now stands >740,000,with persons covered coming in at >1.1 Million.

The math,as the yanks might say,do my head in,but one can see there is a significant gulf between the €77 Million paid by the DSP and the c.€5K per person value of the Pass itself.

With all PT operators now struggling to adapt to the new environment,we are witnessing two differing approaches to the issue.

With the DSP not entertaining any further Free Travel claims the Operators are either Not Accepting Free Travel scrip,or,as in the case of the CIE companies,cutting back on service levels in an attempt to match the 2010 levels of funding.

Whilst the Secretary General of the DSP may well believe it is a viable proposition to state that her Department can continue to add ever more users to the scheme,whilst maintaining funding at 2010 levels,the reality is different.

The realization is only beginning to dawn in many circles that we have a serious problem here.

Anybody who questions the current situation tends to be deemed anti-social or in some way against-the Poor etc etc.

However,for me,the,now very real,threat of the entire scheme collapsing should be focusing the minds of everybody concerned.

The original Free Travel Scheme was a bold and innovative step by a Country not renowned for such things,and I consider it a disgrace that we have now reached this situation.

First Step required,in my opinion,is to revert to the original intended situation....Old Age Pension recipients ONLY,with NO Spouse/Partner entitlement. which would immediately halve the numbers.

Then enter into negotiations with the Service Providers for a realistically funded,viable Concessionary Travel scheme,now much easier achieved through Smart-Card technology.

However there is no time left for studies,reports or the likes....This scheme is in serious difficulty and will not last much longer before collapsing altogether and bringing a hell of a lot more down along with it.

As usual, a clear concise accurate articulate assessment.

Owryan

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you want a return ticket you have to say the word "return" how are staff in Carlow to know you coming back on the same day OP? Are they mind readers as well as ticketing staff.

Its Kilkenny staff here that are in the wrong they should not be giving out return tickets unless you are going back on the same day and you make that clear to them.

I only ever ask for a single as I could be in hosp for a day or 2. If I ask for a single in kilkenny I still get a return , go figure.

My post was trying to show how different 2 stations on the same line operate. Carlow gives a single but doesnt note the pass holders pps , kilkenny notes my pps but always give me a return

gbob

doubletrouble? wrote: »

Foggy there are so many different types of S/W. passes alone that with the exception of inspectors most front line staff are not trained in what these different types are for, then if they were to check every pass it would cause massive delays each time. A.F.I.K you only need photo i.d. within dublin, waterford and cork when using your pass (please correct me if i'm wrong on these counties or have left out one or two). now take into account that some D.B. routes enter the surrounding counties of dublin where no photo i.d. is required this now becomes a major headache for most of these drivers. this problem can only and is only getting worse especially where scams are concerned.

The requirement for photo id is based on the address on the pass, not where it is being used.

Gatling wrote: »

There's 3 SW passes distinguished by its color band ,

And unfortunately the distinguishing colour bands have been removed because oaps claimed it was contrary to their cicvil liberties to be identified as an oap.

foggy_lad

gbob wrote: »

The requirement for photo id is based on the address on the pass, not where it is being used.




And unfortunately the distinguishing colour bands have been removed because oaps claimed it was contrary to their cicvil liberties to be identified as an oap.

The "photopass" is required in the following urban centres, Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway, This should immediately be changed to all passes with a requirement for users to also possess a passport or Gardai Age Card which must be carried with the pass at all times. At the moment the only way transport staff are allowed check a pass holders identity is by asking for a sample of their signature and comparing it with the signature on the pass which the holder is supposed to sign when they get the pass in the post. Even requiring that signature to be witnessed at a social welfare office or sending all passes to the users local office for collection would cut down on much of the fraudulent use.

Are OAPs not entitled to the same civil liberties as everyone else?

Jamie2k9

Owryan wrote: »

I only ever ask for a single as I could be in hosp for a day or 2. If I ask for a single in kilkenny I still get a return , go figure.

My post was trying to show how different 2 stations on the same line operate. Carlow gives a single but doesnt note the pass holders pps , kilkenny notes my pps but always give me a return

I see but I'm sure both keep records some how. I don't know why Kilkenny staff operate like that. There is going to be a clamp down outside Dublin with passes.

gbob

foggy_lad wrote: »

The "photopass" is required in the following urban centres, Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway, This should immediately be changed to all passes with a requirement for users to also possess a passport or Gardai Age Card which must be carried with the pass at all times. At the moment the only way transport staff are allowed check a pass holders identity is by asking for a sample of their signature and comparing it with the signature on the pass which the holder is supposed to sign when they get the pass in the post. Even requiring that signature to be witnessed at a social welfare office or sending all passes to the users local office for collection would cut down on much of the fraudulent use.

Are OAPs not entitled to the same civil liberties as everyone else?

The photo id (which is not a photpass) is required by anyone having an address within those urban areas. Which means if you have a Longford, Carlow Roscommon etc address you don't need the accompanying photo id.

And I didn't say or imply oaps are not entitled to their civil liberties, only that is the reason the colour banding was removed.

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

The "photopass" is required in the following urban centres, Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway, This should immediately be changed to all passes with a requirement for users to also possess a passport or Gardai Age Card which must be carried with the pass at all times.

This famous public services card should eliminate this need as the signature requirement is nonsnese. I can't find any details on the timescale involved but all free pass holders outside the urbans should be done first.
However until then, there is no way I am carrying my passport with me at all times just in case I want to jump on a bus. Mind you I don't carry the pass either because I rarely use it and because it's an awkward size.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps simplistic,but nonetheless accurate.

With an annual CIE "All Services" Pass retailing today at €5,340,we have a ballpark figure for the value of a DSP document.

yes but only for a small number of holders who use their pass daily and for multiple and intercity journeys in the same way that "all services" ticket holders use their ticket

Allowing for the fact that the CIE retail product is not valid on Private Services or Island Helicopters,I would suggest €5,000 as a fair assessment,considering the unrestricted nature of the DSP document.

there are few enough operators still accepting the free travel pass as you keep saying due to the amount paid to them being frozen since 2010?

The numbers of legitimate Free Pass holders now stands >740,000,with persons covered coming in at >1.1 Million.

Many of this number either Dont use their pass at all or use it only a few times a year/month due to having a car

<~>

Anybody who questions the current situation tends to be deemed anti-social or in some way against-the Poor etc etc.

Some pass holders have been looking for changes to the current pass for years to stamp out fraud but there is as you have said on numerous occasions an unwillingness on the part of successive governments to stamp out the fraudulent element(something that could be done at the stroke of a pen!)

However,for me,the,now very real,threat of the entire scheme collapsing should be focusing the minds of everybody concerned.

Maybe this is what successive governments are hoping for?

The original Free Travel Scheme was a bold and innovative step by a Country not renowned for such things,and I consider it a disgrace that we have now reached this situation.

Agree completly

First Step required,in my opinion,is to revert to the original intended situation....Old Age Pension recipients ONLY,with NO Spouse/Partner entitlement. which would immediately halve the numbers.

I would allow OAP holder only and those on invalidity pension as they are mostly deemed very unlikely to be in a position to work again

Then enter into negotiations with the Service Providers for a realistically funded,viable Concessionary Travel scheme,now much easier achieved through Smart-Card technology.

Because of the issues involved between urban/rural it should remain a free travel pass but should be a seperate pass and not just a PPS card with a tiny FT in the corner, that will be harder for bus drivers to see

However there is no time left for studies,reports or the likes....This scheme is in serious difficulty and will not last much longer before collapsing altogether and bringing a hell of a lot more down along with it.

Ah here leave it out, its not all that bad sure we still have our health and a few pints once a month.

But i would means test the pass immediately as well as making the photopass mandatory for all!

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

This famous public services card should eliminate this need as the signature requirement is nonsnese. I can't find any details on the timescale involved but all free pass holders outside the urbans should be done first.
However until then, there is no way I am carrying my passport with me at all times just in case I want to jump on a bus. Mind you I don't carry the pass either because I rarely use it and because it's an awkward size.

Everyone will get the same new public services card and those with free travel will have a tiny marking placed in one corner so transport staff wont will might be able to distinguish between those with and without free travel!

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

Everyone will get the same new public services card and those with free travel will have a tiny marking placed in one corner so transport staff wont will might be able to distinguish between those with and without free travel!

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

That image is quite a bit larger than real size but drivers should be checking every ticket but this is not practical on buses where there are many people boarding and dwell time is so important.

Seedy Arling

I think tighter regulation of the passes and means testing would be the way forward. The majority of people travelling on Galway trains are OAP's out for the day or weekend/mid week breaks. If there was a fee introduced they'd only feck off somewhere else or just get them to pay perhaps a very nominal fee. I get the train in from Athenry to Galway everyday and it is always packed out with the blue rinse brigade

As it stands, the current SW pass is a farce, anecdotally i have heard of individuals who 'lose' their passes annually, but in reality they are distributed to their friends/family and the Department then sends them out new passes.

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

That image is quite a bit larger than real size but drivers should be checking every ticket but this is not practical on buses where there are many people boarding and dwell time is so important.

If you click the link in my post you get to real size. If you seriously tell me that a driver cannot distinguish that a FT is on that card then he should not be driving a bus, because he is probably unable to make out traffic lights as well.

Currently a FT holder has to show a pass, nothing will change except their photo is on it. If my 90 year old granny has a card like that and I use it, the driver should refuse me entry. If it's all about speed of loading passengers then there is an argument that no cash should be allowed as it takes far far longer to drop coins into a slot and print a ticket than to look a card.

goingnowhere

Not only will the pass have to be shown, it must also be validated on the drivers ticket machine to confirm the pass is valid, has not been lost/withdrawn or its holder is not deceased and so on.

Thats how it works in Northern Ireland and they have full accountability on every single trip taken

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

If you click the link in my post you get to real size. If you seriously tell me that a driver cannot distinguish that a FT is on that card then he should not be driving a bus, because he is probably unable to make out traffic lights as well.

Currently a FT holder has to show a pass, nothing will change except their photo is on it. If my 90 year old granny has a card like that and I use it, the driver should refuse me entry. If it's all about speed of loading passengers then there is an argument that no cash should be allowed as it takes far far longer to drop coins into a slot and print a ticket than to look a card.

In any other country the new travel pass card would be compatible with the ticket machines on public transport and this would be used to "validate" your free journey. There should be no other compilation of personal travel habits etc but here in Ireland such thinking is beyond the decision makers.

doubletrouble?

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

peppa this isn't about how someone looks, what age they are it's about having a valid F.T. pass. there are thousands of healthy looking people out there using legit F.T. travel passes for reasons they and the dept of S.W. only know of. it's not anyones business to question people on why they got/ are entitled to the pass. the problem is the abuse of the system.
i know of one guy who has a S.W. pass and heres where the abuse is: he's given the colour part to his friend. his friend now has free travel and the owner tries to use public transport using just the S.W. photo i.d. which he needs to get the dole etc.

SteM

Gatling wrote: »

...
I've seen up to 6 people board a bus with one flash of a piece of paper some junkie claiming there all covered on the pass

The move I've seen on the 27 is 2 come charging on at the same time. The first one flashes a bit of paper and they both run to the stairs. If the drive calls the second one back the first one passes back the pass really quickly so the driver thinks they both have one. I've seen them do it a bunch of times.

Meanwhile my fares go up and up way out of line with inflation

gbob

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

I don't have a pass and don't look as though I may be entitled to one, but if I did have one and was challenged on that basis I would quite rightly be somewhat indignant. As a driver, that is something we need to be very careful about; accusing or assuming based how we perceive a disability.

gbob

Many years ago I was operating a service through a small town in west when a man who appeared to be in his seventies put his hand out at the approaching bus. He climbed on board and showed his free pass and stated his destination, I thanked him and waited for him to take his seat. He remained standing in front of me looking very confused and hesitantly asked "do I not need a ticket", I told him all he had to do was present the pass when boarding and that was his ticket. "Oh thank you" he said and continued "I only just got this and didn't know what to do, it's my first time using it, in fact it's my first time ever on a bus, and d'ya know, it's my first time leaving this town".

If there's one thing this facility gives, it's the ability to give an old man some independence.

So when we debate the need of such a thing and the price we pay for it, remember, some people get a real genuine benefit from it.