Free Travel Scheme posts split from Bus Eireann strike thread

Gatling

doubletrouble? wrote: »

Foggy there are so many different types of S/W. passes alone that with the exception of inspectors most front line staff are not trained in what these different types are for, then if they were to check every pass it would cause massive delays each time. A.F.I.K you only need photo i.d. within dublin, waterford and cork when using your pass (please correct me if i'm wrong on these counties or have left out one or two). now take into account that some D.B. routes enter the surrounding counties of dublin where no photo i.d. is required this now becomes a major headache for most of these drivers. this problem can only and is only getting worse especially where scams are concerned.

There's 3 SW passes distinguished by its color band ,

gbob

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps simplistic,but nonetheless accurate.

With an annual CIE "All Services" Pass retailing today at €5,340,we have a ballpark figure for the value of a DSP document.

Allowing for the fact that the CIE retail product is not valid on Private Services or Island Helicopters,I would suggest €5,000 as a fair assessment,considering the unrestricted nature of the DSP document.

The numbers of legitimate Free Pass holders now stands >740,000,with persons covered coming in at >1.1 Million.

The math,as the yanks might say,do my head in,but one can see there is a significant gulf between the €77 Million paid by the DSP and the c.€5K per person value of the Pass itself.

With all PT operators now struggling to adapt to the new environment,we are witnessing two differing approaches to the issue.

With the DSP not entertaining any further Free Travel claims the Operators are either Not Accepting Free Travel scrip,or,as in the case of the CIE companies,cutting back on service levels in an attempt to match the 2010 levels of funding.

Whilst the Secretary General of the DSP may well believe it is a viable proposition to state that her Department can continue to add ever more users to the scheme,whilst maintaining funding at 2010 levels,the reality is different.

The realization is only beginning to dawn in many circles that we have a serious problem here.

Anybody who questions the current situation tends to be deemed anti-social or in some way against-the Poor etc etc.

However,for me,the,now very real,threat of the entire scheme collapsing should be focusing the minds of everybody concerned.

The original Free Travel Scheme was a bold and innovative step by a Country not renowned for such things,and I consider it a disgrace that we have now reached this situation.

First Step required,in my opinion,is to revert to the original intended situation....Old Age Pension recipients ONLY,with NO Spouse/Partner entitlement. which would immediately halve the numbers.

Then enter into negotiations with the Service Providers for a realistically funded,viable Concessionary Travel scheme,now much easier achieved through Smart-Card technology.

However there is no time left for studies,reports or the likes....This scheme is in serious difficulty and will not last much longer before collapsing altogether and bringing a hell of a lot more down along with it.

As usual, a clear concise accurate articulate assessment.

Owryan

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you want a return ticket you have to say the word "return" how are staff in Carlow to know you coming back on the same day OP? Are they mind readers as well as ticketing staff.

Its Kilkenny staff here that are in the wrong they should not be giving out return tickets unless you are going back on the same day and you make that clear to them.

I only ever ask for a single as I could be in hosp for a day or 2. If I ask for a single in kilkenny I still get a return , go figure.

My post was trying to show how different 2 stations on the same line operate. Carlow gives a single but doesnt note the pass holders pps , kilkenny notes my pps but always give me a return

gbob

doubletrouble? wrote: »

Foggy there are so many different types of S/W. passes alone that with the exception of inspectors most front line staff are not trained in what these different types are for, then if they were to check every pass it would cause massive delays each time. A.F.I.K you only need photo i.d. within dublin, waterford and cork when using your pass (please correct me if i'm wrong on these counties or have left out one or two). now take into account that some D.B. routes enter the surrounding counties of dublin where no photo i.d. is required this now becomes a major headache for most of these drivers. this problem can only and is only getting worse especially where scams are concerned.

The requirement for photo id is based on the address on the pass, not where it is being used.

Gatling wrote: »

There's 3 SW passes distinguished by its color band ,

And unfortunately the distinguishing colour bands have been removed because oaps claimed it was contrary to their cicvil liberties to be identified as an oap.

foggy_lad

gbob wrote: »

The requirement for photo id is based on the address on the pass, not where it is being used.




And unfortunately the distinguishing colour bands have been removed because oaps claimed it was contrary to their cicvil liberties to be identified as an oap.

The "photopass" is required in the following urban centres, Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway, This should immediately be changed to all passes with a requirement for users to also possess a passport or Gardai Age Card which must be carried with the pass at all times. At the moment the only way transport staff are allowed check a pass holders identity is by asking for a sample of their signature and comparing it with the signature on the pass which the holder is supposed to sign when they get the pass in the post. Even requiring that signature to be witnessed at a social welfare office or sending all passes to the users local office for collection would cut down on much of the fraudulent use.

Are OAPs not entitled to the same civil liberties as everyone else?

Jamie2k9

Owryan wrote: »

I only ever ask for a single as I could be in hosp for a day or 2. If I ask for a single in kilkenny I still get a return , go figure.

My post was trying to show how different 2 stations on the same line operate. Carlow gives a single but doesnt note the pass holders pps , kilkenny notes my pps but always give me a return

I see but I'm sure both keep records some how. I don't know why Kilkenny staff operate like that. There is going to be a clamp down outside Dublin with passes.

gbob

foggy_lad wrote: »

The "photopass" is required in the following urban centres, Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway, This should immediately be changed to all passes with a requirement for users to also possess a passport or Gardai Age Card which must be carried with the pass at all times. At the moment the only way transport staff are allowed check a pass holders identity is by asking for a sample of their signature and comparing it with the signature on the pass which the holder is supposed to sign when they get the pass in the post. Even requiring that signature to be witnessed at a social welfare office or sending all passes to the users local office for collection would cut down on much of the fraudulent use.

Are OAPs not entitled to the same civil liberties as everyone else?

The photo id (which is not a photpass) is required by anyone having an address within those urban areas. Which means if you have a Longford, Carlow Roscommon etc address you don't need the accompanying photo id.

And I didn't say or imply oaps are not entitled to their civil liberties, only that is the reason the colour banding was removed.

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

The "photopass" is required in the following urban centres, Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway, This should immediately be changed to all passes with a requirement for users to also possess a passport or Gardai Age Card which must be carried with the pass at all times.

This famous public services card should eliminate this need as the signature requirement is nonsnese. I can't find any details on the timescale involved but all free pass holders outside the urbans should be done first.
However until then, there is no way I am carrying my passport with me at all times just in case I want to jump on a bus. Mind you I don't carry the pass either because I rarely use it and because it's an awkward size.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps simplistic,but nonetheless accurate.

With an annual CIE "All Services" Pass retailing today at €5,340,we have a ballpark figure for the value of a DSP document.

yes but only for a small number of holders who use their pass daily and for multiple and intercity journeys in the same way that "all services" ticket holders use their ticket

Allowing for the fact that the CIE retail product is not valid on Private Services or Island Helicopters,I would suggest €5,000 as a fair assessment,considering the unrestricted nature of the DSP document.

there are few enough operators still accepting the free travel pass as you keep saying due to the amount paid to them being frozen since 2010?

The numbers of legitimate Free Pass holders now stands >740,000,with persons covered coming in at >1.1 Million.

Many of this number either Dont use their pass at all or use it only a few times a year/month due to having a car

<~>

Anybody who questions the current situation tends to be deemed anti-social or in some way against-the Poor etc etc.

Some pass holders have been looking for changes to the current pass for years to stamp out fraud but there is as you have said on numerous occasions an unwillingness on the part of successive governments to stamp out the fraudulent element(something that could be done at the stroke of a pen!)

However,for me,the,now very real,threat of the entire scheme collapsing should be focusing the minds of everybody concerned.

Maybe this is what successive governments are hoping for?

The original Free Travel Scheme was a bold and innovative step by a Country not renowned for such things,and I consider it a disgrace that we have now reached this situation.

Agree completly

First Step required,in my opinion,is to revert to the original intended situation....Old Age Pension recipients ONLY,with NO Spouse/Partner entitlement. which would immediately halve the numbers.

I would allow OAP holder only and those on invalidity pension as they are mostly deemed very unlikely to be in a position to work again

Then enter into negotiations with the Service Providers for a realistically funded,viable Concessionary Travel scheme,now much easier achieved through Smart-Card technology.

Because of the issues involved between urban/rural it should remain a free travel pass but should be a seperate pass and not just a PPS card with a tiny FT in the corner, that will be harder for bus drivers to see

However there is no time left for studies,reports or the likes....This scheme is in serious difficulty and will not last much longer before collapsing altogether and bringing a hell of a lot more down along with it.

Ah here leave it out, its not all that bad sure we still have our health and a few pints once a month.

But i would means test the pass immediately as well as making the photopass mandatory for all!

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

This famous public services card should eliminate this need as the signature requirement is nonsnese. I can't find any details on the timescale involved but all free pass holders outside the urbans should be done first.
However until then, there is no way I am carrying my passport with me at all times just in case I want to jump on a bus. Mind you I don't carry the pass either because I rarely use it and because it's an awkward size.

Everyone will get the same new public services card and those with free travel will have a tiny marking placed in one corner so transport staff wont will might be able to distinguish between those with and without free travel!

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

Everyone will get the same new public services card and those with free travel will have a tiny marking placed in one corner so transport staff wont will might be able to distinguish between those with and without free travel!

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

That image is quite a bit larger than real size but drivers should be checking every ticket but this is not practical on buses where there are many people boarding and dwell time is so important.

Seedy Arling

I think tighter regulation of the passes and means testing would be the way forward. The majority of people travelling on Galway trains are OAP's out for the day or weekend/mid week breaks. If there was a fee introduced they'd only feck off somewhere else or just get them to pay perhaps a very nominal fee. I get the train in from Athenry to Galway everyday and it is always packed out with the blue rinse brigade

As it stands, the current SW pass is a farce, anecdotally i have heard of individuals who 'lose' their passes annually, but in reality they are distributed to their friends/family and the Department then sends them out new passes.

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

That image is quite a bit larger than real size but drivers should be checking every ticket but this is not practical on buses where there are many people boarding and dwell time is so important.

If you click the link in my post you get to real size. If you seriously tell me that a driver cannot distinguish that a FT is on that card then he should not be driving a bus, because he is probably unable to make out traffic lights as well.

Currently a FT holder has to show a pass, nothing will change except their photo is on it. If my 90 year old granny has a card like that and I use it, the driver should refuse me entry. If it's all about speed of loading passengers then there is an argument that no cash should be allowed as it takes far far longer to drop coins into a slot and print a ticket than to look a card.

goingnowhere

Not only will the pass have to be shown, it must also be validated on the drivers ticket machine to confirm the pass is valid, has not been lost/withdrawn or its holder is not deceased and so on.

Thats how it works in Northern Ireland and they have full accountability on every single trip taken

foggy_lad

Peppa Pig wrote: »

If you click the link in my post you get to real size. If you seriously tell me that a driver cannot distinguish that a FT is on that card then he should not be driving a bus, because he is probably unable to make out traffic lights as well.

Currently a FT holder has to show a pass, nothing will change except their photo is on it. If my 90 year old granny has a card like that and I use it, the driver should refuse me entry. If it's all about speed of loading passengers then there is an argument that no cash should be allowed as it takes far far longer to drop coins into a slot and print a ticket than to look a card.

In any other country the new travel pass card would be compatible with the ticket machines on public transport and this would be used to "validate" your free journey. There should be no other compilation of personal travel habits etc but here in Ireland such thinking is beyond the decision makers.

doubletrouble?

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

peppa this isn't about how someone looks, what age they are it's about having a valid F.T. pass. there are thousands of healthy looking people out there using legit F.T. travel passes for reasons they and the dept of S.W. only know of. it's not anyones business to question people on why they got/ are entitled to the pass. the problem is the abuse of the system.
i know of one guy who has a S.W. pass and heres where the abuse is: he's given the colour part to his friend. his friend now has free travel and the owner tries to use public transport using just the S.W. photo i.d. which he needs to get the dole etc.

SteM

Gatling wrote: »

...
I've seen up to 6 people board a bus with one flash of a piece of paper some junkie claiming there all covered on the pass

The move I've seen on the 27 is 2 come charging on at the same time. The first one flashes a bit of paper and they both run to the stairs. If the drive calls the second one back the first one passes back the pass really quickly so the driver thinks they both have one. I've seen them do it a bunch of times.

Meanwhile my fares go up and up way out of line with inflation

gbob

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

With a card like that surely the onus is on the drivers to verify the FT is there and the photo corresponds. If they don;t they are not doing their job correctly. I ain't an OAP and look relatively healthy so I would expect to be challenged.

I don't have a pass and don't look as though I may be entitled to one, but if I did have one and was challenged on that basis I would quite rightly be somewhat indignant. As a driver, that is something we need to be very careful about; accusing or assuming based how we perceive a disability.

gbob

Many years ago I was operating a service through a small town in west when a man who appeared to be in his seventies put his hand out at the approaching bus. He climbed on board and showed his free pass and stated his destination, I thanked him and waited for him to take his seat. He remained standing in front of me looking very confused and hesitantly asked "do I not need a ticket", I told him all he had to do was present the pass when boarding and that was his ticket. "Oh thank you" he said and continued "I only just got this and didn't know what to do, it's my first time using it, in fact it's my first time ever on a bus, and d'ya know, it's my first time leaving this town".

If there's one thing this facility gives, it's the ability to give an old man some independence.

So when we debate the need of such a thing and the price we pay for it, remember, some people get a real genuine benefit from it.

Peppa Pig

gbob wrote: »

I don't have a pass and don't look as though I may be entitled to one, but if I did have one and was challenged on that basis I would quite rightly be somewhat indignant. As a driver, that is something we need to be very careful about; accusing or assuming based how we perceive a disability.

I meant being challenged as to whether I had a pass, not whether I was entitled to one:D
If I "tapped the pocket" and was allowed to go then it would be ridiculous.

cdebru

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps simplistic,but nonetheless accurate.

With an annual CIE "All Services" Pass retailing today at €5,340,we have a ballpark figure for the value of a DSP document.

Allowing for the fact that the CIE retail product is not valid on Private Services or Island Helicopters,I would suggest €5,000 as a fair assessment,considering the unrestricted nature of the DSP document.

The numbers of legitimate Free Pass holders now stands >740,000,with persons covered coming in at >1.1 Million.

The math,as the yanks might say,do my head in,but one can see there is a significant gulf between the €77 Million paid by the DSP and the c.€5K per person value of the Pass itself.

With all PT operators now struggling to adapt to the new environment,we are witnessing two differing approaches to the issue.

With the DSP not entertaining any further Free Travel claims the Operators are either Not Accepting Free Travel scrip,or,as in the case of the CIE companies,cutting back on service levels in an attempt to match the 2010 levels of funding.

Whilst the Secretary General of the DSP may well believe it is a viable proposition to state that her Department can continue to add ever more users to the scheme,whilst maintaining funding at 2010 levels,the reality is different.

The realization is only beginning to dawn in many circles that we have a serious problem here.

Anybody who questions the current situation tends to be deemed anti-social or in some way against-the Poor etc etc.

However,for me,the,now very real,threat of the entire scheme collapsing should be focusing the minds of everybody concerned.

The original Free Travel Scheme was a bold and innovative step by a Country not renowned for such things,and I consider it a disgrace that we have now reached this situation.

First Step required,in my opinion,is to revert to the original intended situation....Old Age Pension recipients ONLY,with NO Spouse/Partner entitlement. which would immediately halve the numbers.

Then enter into negotiations with the Service Providers for a realistically funded,viable Concessionary Travel scheme,now much easier achieved through Smart-Card technology.

However there is no time left for studies,reports or the likes....This scheme is in serious difficulty and will not last much longer before collapsing altogether and bringing a hell of a lot more down along with it.

I can only apologise for my simplistic post ;-)

Brilliant post again Alek, the unfortunate thing is no one wants to touch this issue, CIE gets creased regularly in the Dail and this issue is never raised. None of the TDs want to mention the elephant in the room for obvious reasons and more disappointingly but not surprisingly even the unions in CIE never mention the huge milestone of 1.1 million adults with free travel and the derisory amount the government pays for this.

If anything approaching a fraction of the cost of the scheme was paid to CIE there would be no financial crisis in any of the 3 companies and probably no need for any subvention.

Of course the government in the current situation cannot afford to pay the cost of the free travel scheme, so something will have to give, it will either be CIE will go under or the free travel scheme will have to be radically reformed.

gbob

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I meant being challenged as to whether I had a pass, not whether I was entitled to one:D
If I "tapped the pocket" and was allowed to go then it would be ridiculous.

If a 90 year old gets on my bus and taps the pocket it means nothing to me. Carry and show the pass or pay the fare.

A regular elderly woman I know has lost (read sold) her pass 13 times in a 12 month period and resulted the the Dept' refusing to reissue her pass, when she sees me driving she stands at the bus stop crying, knowing full well I won't buckle and allow her to travel without paying.

She's smart enough to know the value of the pass, then she's smart enough to deal with the consequences of selling it.

In the Uk the free travel is limited to a certain distance. That should be the same here. Say up to 20 miles free, unless exceptional circumstances, like hospital visits.

end of the road

cdebru wrote: »

it will either be CIE will go under or the free travel scheme will have to be radically reformed.

or the both of them could go to the wall

cdebru

end of the road wrote: »

or the both of them could go to the wall

Well it is hard to imagine any private company prepared to accept 1.1 million adults with completely free travel for 60 euro each a year in total. I would imagine they would tell them were to go thanks but no thanks.

That is why I am starting to think that the semi state model for PT is just not going to work in this country. The government just tell them here this is what you are getting make it work. There is no way a private company would accept this ****.

Fare paying passengers and indeed the employees are being asked to subsidise the free travel of 1.1 million adults.
It means a never ending cycle of fare increases and wage cuts so that other people can enjoy the network completely free. It is a vicious cycle that can't continue fares go up passengers reduce their patronage, wages are cut and round we go again.

foggy_lad

Deleted User wrote: »

In the Uk the free travel is limited to a certain distance. That should be the same here. Say up to 20 miles free, unless exceptional circumstances, like hospital visits.

20 miles will get you a lot farther in the UK than it will in Ireland, Here many pass holders would only get to the nearest village.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Yeah, you have missed something and its not just "an OAP getting a taxi home". Quote the rest of my post.

One of the biggest defenses argued in favour of CIEs financial position is the "free travel". Be it OAPs or social welfare recepients. Free travel is Free travel no matter what way you look at it. The particular example I quoted highlighted that the person in question was able to take a taxi home. Full stop. Take the Charlie Haughey burden away from CIE. Remove the excuses. No more free travel for anybody. You want to use a CIE service, you pay for it.

The buses was on strike, her daughter dropped her in but had to get a taxi home. No big deal. You are making something out of nothing. OAP's have the travel pass because of them being OAP's not because they cant afford a taxi.
It would have been easier if you had posted this first instead of saying a story of an OAP getting a taxi home was funny.

doubletrouble?

Peppa Pig wrote: »

C'mon - it's not tiny.

Example of new PS card

peppa i'm just using the pic of the card not quoting you .
at the moment once someone flashes their pass it automatically means free travel.
now my question for the above card is this.
when these new cards are rolled out fully will the free travel be thrown in like confetti, as uncle gabo used to say "theres one for everyone in the audience" :eek:

foggy_lad

doubletrouble? wrote: »

peppa i'm just using the pic of the card not quoting you .
at the moment once someone flashes their pass it automatically means free travel.
now my question for the above card is this.
when these new cards are rolled out fully will the free travel be thrown in like confetti, as uncle gabo used to say "theres one for everyone in the audience" :eek:

only those eligible for free travel will have the logo in the corner but then if a person is no longer entitled to it how do they remove it unless the person hands in their pps card?

The free travel pass needs to be compatible with the ticket machines used in public transport so they can be checked to make sure they are valid for each journey, this would have been easy to do with the Leap card roll-out once usage and journey details were not used. but the powers that were in place decided against it.