Jonny Sexton leaving Leinster mod warning post 1

jm08 · 09-05-2013 1:09pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's nonsense!

So if ROG hadn't been given 350k he would have magically disappeared and Ireland would have to stop selecting him and go with Wallace instead? What a silly concept.

Humphreys did exactly that.

The IRFU messed up here. They tried to lowball Sexton (no doubt Drury dragged the discussions down to his usual level) and he walked away. And the fact they expected him to play for less than they payed O'Gara to sit on the bench for 2 years is madness.

Where did you get the figures for what Sexton or O'Gara are earning?

molloyjh · 09-05-2013 2:00pm

ROG got a central contract in November 2010. It was announced the same day that Sexton was the starting 10 against NZ and nearly 2 weeks after he had started against SA. So if ROG is worth a 350k contract when he is coming towards the end of his career and the outgoing Irish OH then surely Sexton is worth 50k more when he is in his prime, the starting OH for club, country and the Lions as well as probably one of the best in his position in the world.

Or maybe I'm missing something....

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8294.php

vkid · 09-05-2013 2:21pm

Where are people getting figures for the contracts...or is it all rumour, hearsay, waffle etc

totallegend · 09-05-2013 2:21pm

It's as simple as this.

Sexton goes to Racing; IRFU can still call on him for the national team and a big salary comes off the IRFU books.

Do you think the IRFU give a f**k if Leinster remain competitive? They do not.

.ak · 09-05-2013 2:25pm

totallegend wrote: »

It's as simple as this.

Sexton goes to Racing; IRFU can still call on him for the national team and a big salary comes off the IRFU books.

Do you think the IRFU give a f**k if Leinster remain competitive? They do not.

Are you sure? I think they do, and in this instance I think they made a massive mistake. The difference between Leinster being competitive and not means millions to the IRFU.

chris85 · 09-05-2013 2:27pm

totallegend wrote: »

It's as simple as this.

Sexton goes to Racing; IRFU can still call on him for the national team and a big salary comes off the IRFU books.

Do you think the IRFU give a f**k if Leinster remain competitive? They do not.

They need the provinces to remain competitive. The money the IRFU make from the provinces in European competitions is big and the provinces only get some of it. It all goes to the IRFU firstly.

.ak · 09-05-2013 2:28pm

vkid wrote: »

Where are people getting figures for the contracts...or is it all rumour, hearsay, waffle etc

Heaslip's figure is fairly well known, and has been published in the papers at the 400k mark (could be a variance of 50k either side). It would make him the most well paid centrally contracted player in Irish rugby.

According to Sexton's godfather, he wanted equal pay with Heaslip, so that's where that figure is coming from. There is strong rumours in France on what Sexton is getting from RM as well, which is close to 1.2m over 2 years, so about 600k.

totallegend · 09-05-2013 2:31pm

.ak wrote: »

Are you sure? I think they do, and in this instance I think they made a massive mistake. The difference between Leinster being competitive and not means millions to the IRFU.

Meh, I'm probably being a bit unfair on them and I suppose we're all talking in very vague terms about what he might have been offered.

But I think that the difference between what was offered and what was needed to make him stay was probably in the region of 100k per annum. A lot of money but a tiny fraction of what Leinster have brought in over the last few years through ERC success and repeated renting out of the Aviva, not to mention the fact that Jonny is one of the most marketable players we have.

It's hard to see how it made any sense to let him go, other than that the IRFU a) saw it as a chance to get the wage bill down or b) didn't want to set a precedent.

Either way, they got it wrong.

Bogota · 09-05-2013 2:35pm

totallegend wrote: »

Meh, I'm probably being a bit unfair on them and I suppose we're all talking in very vague terms about what he might have been offered.

But I think that the difference between what was offered and what was needed to make him stay was probably in the region of 100k per annum. A lot of money but a tiny fraction of what Leinster have brought in over the last few years through ERC success and repeated renting out of the Aviva, not to mention the fact that Jonny is one of the most marketable players we have.

It's hard to see how it made any sense to let him go, other than that the IRFU a) saw it as a chance to get the wage bill down or b) didn't want to set a precedent.

Either way, they got it wrong.

Or maybe the IRFU didn't want one province leapfrogging so far ahead of all the other provinces. Considering the difficulties that Sexton, Fitzgerald and Kearney had with their contracts, on top of being forced to let go the likes of Hines and threatening to let Nacewa go (remember that episode?) it just seems like the IRFU were of the opinion that Leinster were becoming too strong and it had become time to reign them in. The IRFU does best when all provinces are on a more or less level playing field (exception being Connacht although thats changing).

Winters · 09-05-2013 2:37pm

totallegend wrote: »

It's as simple as this.

Sexton goes to Racing; IRFU can still call on him for the national team and a big salary comes off the IRFU books.

Do you think the IRFU give a f**k if Leinster remain competitive? They do not.

Ah I don’t think it’s as blunt as that. I doubt IRFU Director of Rugby Eddie Wigglesworth has forgotten how he was Leinster CEO before his current role. The Union do know how to run a tight ship though and how to prioritise. Lest we forget which events fund the pro game in Ireland.

.ak · 09-05-2013 2:38pm

totallegend wrote: »

Meh, I'm probably being a bit unfair on them and I suppose we're all talking in very vague terms about what he might have been offered.

But I think that the difference between what was offered and what was needed to make him stay was probably in the region of 100k per annum. A lot of money but a tiny fraction of what Leinster have brought in over the last few years through ERC success and repeated renting out of the Aviva, not to mention the fact that Jonny is one of the most marketable players we have.

It's hard to see how it made any sense to let him go, other than that the IRFU a) saw it as a chance to get the wage bill down or b) didn't want to set a precedent.

Either way, they got it wrong.

Yeah, agreed!

trouttrout · 09-05-2013 2:38pm

Bogota wrote: »

Or maybe the IRFU didn't want one province leapfrogging so far ahead of all the other provinces. Considering the difficulties that Sexton, Fitzgerald and Kearney had with their contracts, on top of being forced to let go the likes of Hines and threatening to let Nacewa go (remember that episode?) it just seems like the IRFU were of the opinion that Leinster were becoming too strong and it had become time to reign them in. The IRFU does best when all provinces are on a more or less level playing field (Connacht aside).

That's absolute nonsense. What on earth would be gained for the IRFU by making Leinster less successful? The amount of money the IRFU has made off the back of Leinsters success over the last few years must be staggering

Fair enough if they handled the Sexton negotiation badly, but you hardly expect anyone to entertain that conspiracy theory

jm08 · 09-05-2013 2:40pm

molloyjh wrote: »

ROG got a central contract in November 2010. It was announced the same day that Sexton was the starting 10 against NZ and nearly 2 weeks after he had started against SA. So if ROG is worth a 350k contract when he is coming towards the end of his career and the outgoing Irish OH then surely Sexton is worth 50k more when he is in his prime, the starting OH for club, country and the Lions as well as probably one of the best in his position in the world.

Or maybe I'm missing something....

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8294.php

Sexton is going to be the top paid player in French Rugby* next season. Thats a long way away from 400K per annum. According to some here all it would have taken is another 50K on top of what O'Gara reputedly was getting.

*Wilkinson was believed to be on £710,000 per season, but is taking a pay cut in his next contract.

Sexton will also earn Ireland match & touring fees.

The bit you are missing is that ROG's club contract was probably worth 2-250K per annum as starting outhalf. Sitting on the bench, he wouldn't be earning too many bonuses and if the IRFU wanted him as cover, he could charge what he liked.

.ak · 09-05-2013 2:41pm

trouttrout wrote: »

Fair enough if they handled the Sexton negotiation badly, but you hardly expect anyone to entertain that conspiracy theory

... well, I know somebody that would entertain it.

*cough*[Jackass]*cough*

thomond2006 · 09-05-2013 2:41pm

The IRFU have made millions from ERC meritocracy payments, there's no way they would weaken a province on purpose. It looks like they botched the negotiations due to incompetence.

Winters · 09-05-2013 2:42pm

totallegend wrote: »

It's hard to see how it made any sense to let him go, other than that the IRFU a) saw it as a chance to get the wage bill down or b) didn't want to set a precedent..

I would like to think that they were thinking more about 'b' than 'a'.

Suffice to say I think Drury plays hard ball at every chance. The IRFU have to play hard ball back and this time they lost.

There will be more Johnny Sextons, move on.

09-05-2013 2:42pm

trouttrout wrote: »

That's absolute nonsense. What on earth would be gained for the IRFU by making Leinster less successful? The amount of money the IRFU has made off the back of Leinsters success over the last few years must be staggering

Fair enough if they handled the Sexton negotiation badly, but you hardly expect anyone to entertain that conspiracy theory

though I don't agree with the tinfoil hat stuff, there is an actual answer to this.

If one of the provinces is absolutely dominant ahead of the others, the central contracting system will mean that a large portion of the budget of the IRFU for contracts will be paid into one province alone.

If one province has 12/13 central contracts paid for externally, it then has more money to be able to buy better NIQ's, afford better average wages than other provinces for Squad Players etc and actually manage to increase the 'domination' effect which could see 2/3 more central contracts and the cycle continue.

A group of strong provinces is essential for the IRFU's central contracting ideals. One pressing too far ahead is a disaster that can struggle to self-right.

jm08 · 09-05-2013 2:50pm

trouttrout wrote: »

That's absolute nonsense. What on earth would be gained for the IRFU by making Leinster less successful? The amount of money the IRFU has made off the back of Leinsters success over the last few years must be staggering

Fair enough if they handled the Sexton negotiation badly, but you hardly expect anyone to entertain that conspiracy theory

I think he has a point. The real money earner for the IRFU is the international game and the IRFU couldn't compete with Leinster as Dublin/Leinster is where most rugby supporters live. Leinster can sell 50K tickets to the Aviva for a Leinster v Munster game at half the price of what an international ticket would cost.

What has happened with football in England (Man Utd & Liverpool bigger than the England team), could easily happen with rugby in Ireland considering the tribal nature of it.

jm08 · 09-05-2013 2:53pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

The IRFU have made millions from ERC meritocracy payments, there's no way they would weaken a province on purpose. It looks like they botched the negotiations due to incompetence.

They make a lot more from international rugby, especially tv rights etc. I doubt if they intentionally tried to weaken Leinster, but from the IRFU's point of view this is working out well.

1. No Sexton on central contract, but access to him for internationals.
2. Leinster can develop Ian Madigan so they will have a good supply of players.

thomond2006 · 09-05-2013 2:56pm

jm08 wrote: »

What has happened with football in England (Man Utd & Liverpool bigger than the England team), could easily happen with rugby in Ireland considering the tribal nature of it.

Bottom line: The IRFU has made millions out of Leinster's success, why oh why would they want to jeopardise that? If you believe Sexton's side of the story the IRFU ****ed up. It had nothing to do with wanting to weaken Leinster. If Leinster won trophies in the next two years then Sexton could partly payback a wage increase.

totallegend · 09-05-2013 3:03pm

Winters wrote: »

I would like to think that they were thinking more about 'b' than 'a'.

Suffice to say I think Drury plays hard ball at every chance. The IRFU have to play hard ball back and this time they lost.

There will be more Johnny Sextons, move on.

That's what I'd be worried about.

There will, of course, be more players as good as (and better) than Sexton. Players who will come through the provincial system, gain experience, grow as players and hopefully bring success to the provinces.

And just as they're reaching the peak of their powers, as Sexton is now, they'll be allowed to leave to save a few quid.

It's extremely short-sighted.

Buer · 09-05-2013 3:06pm

chris85 wrote: »

They need the provinces to remain competitive. The money the IRFU make from the provinces in European competitions is big and the provinces only get some of it. It all goes to the IRFU firstly.

Money made by the provinces is actually dwarfed by the revenue from the national side.

Bogota · 09-05-2013 3:06pm

jm08 wrote: »

The bit you are missing is that ROG's club contract was probably worth 2-250K per annum as starting outhalf. Sitting on the bench, he wouldn't be earning too many bonuses and if the IRFU wanted him as cover, he could charge what he liked.

Wrong, ROG's contract was worth 350k per annum irrespective of whether he started for Ireland or not.

You don't get match appearance fee bonuses if you'e on a central contract so 350k per year on a central contract means exactly that.

totallegend · 09-05-2013 3:09pm

Buer wrote: »

Money made by the provinces is actually dwarfed by the revenue from the national side.

That's a whole other debate, not really relevant here.

Buer · 09-05-2013 3:11pm

totallegend wrote: »

That's a whole other debate, totally irrelevant here.

I was responding to a point being incorrectly made by several people not opening a debate.

jm08 · 09-05-2013 3:18pm

Bogota wrote: »

Wrong, ROG's contract was worth 350k per annum irrespective of whether he started for Ireland or not.

You don't get match appearance fee bonuses if you'e on a central contract so 350k per year on a central contract means exactly that.

ROG's Munster contract would be worth 200-250K per annum which would leave say 100k for the international part of his contract which in the world cup year entailed about being available for about 18 games - that works out at about 5K a game.

The difference having him under contract though is that he might not have wanted to tour New Zealand that time Sexton was injured and his wife was about to have a baby*, but he had to tour because he was under contract.

*He said later he asked to be left at home but was refused permission.

jamiedav2011 · 09-05-2013 3:24pm

Yet again, a discussion thread gets dragged off kilter by one particular poster and dragged kicking and screaming into the mire.

You must have a lot of time on your hands JM08?

P_1 · 09-05-2013 3:29pm

Like many others I'd view the Sexton contract farce as being caused by the IRFU being incapable of organising a piss up in a brewery rather than there being any 'they're getting too big for their boots, best remind them who's boss' type conspiracy theory.

Bogota · 09-05-2013 3:30pm

jm08 wrote: »

ROG's Munster contract would be worth 200-250K per annum which would leave say 100k for the international part of his contract which in the world cup year entailed about being available for about 18 games - that works out at about 5K a game.

The difference having him under contract though is that he might not have wanted to tour New Zealand that time Sexton was injured and his wife was about to have a baby*, but he had to tour because he was under contract.

*He said later he asked to be left at home but was refused permission.

You have just completely made that up to suit your argument.

thomond2006 · 09-05-2013 3:36pm

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Yet again, a discussion thread gets dragged off kilter by one particular poster and dragged kicking and screaming into a coin toss.

fixed

justsomebloke · 09-05-2013 3:45pm

Please attack the post not the poster. If you have an issue with how factual a post is, ask for sources to back up the point.

Attacking the poster will only see you get the infraction

jm08 · 09-05-2013 3:45pm

Bogota wrote: »

You have just completely made that up to suit your argument.

Well, fair play to me for attention to detail if I have made it up!

The tour to NZ & Aus in 2010.
O'Gara started against NZ in June and didn't play again after that (Sexton might have been coming back from an injury).

David Wallace went home after the first Test as his wife was having a baby. Ireland played the Maori and then Australia and O'Gara didn't get a minute's game time. ROG's wife had a baby shortly after they came back (same day I think as Brian O'Driscoll got married).

Edit: I think you need to make some allowances for some of the older lads who have families. Look at Isa Nacewa retiring early from all rugby because his wife wants to return to NZ to bring up their children.

Bogota · 09-05-2013 3:58pm

jm08 wrote: »

Well, fair play to me for attention to detail if I have made it up!

The tour to NZ & Aus in 2010.
O'Gara started against NZ in June and didn't play again after that (Sexton might have been coming back from an injury).

David Wallace went home after the first Test as his wife was having a baby. Ireland played the Maori and then Australia and O'Gara didn't get a minute's game time. ROG's wife had a baby shortly after they came back (same day I think as Brian O'Driscoll got married).

Edit: I think you need to make some allowances for some of the older lads who have families. Look at Isa Nacewa retiring early from all rugby because his wife wants to return to NZ to bring up their children.

Can you show me the source that says ROG's central contract which was announced at 350k per annum is actually 250k per annum and that 100k is dependent on appearances at international level?

Also a source that says ROG had asked to stay at home for NZ and had been refused by the IRFU?

jm08 · 09-05-2013 4:14pm

Bogota wrote: »

Can you show me the source that says ROG's central contract which was announced at 350k per annum is actually 250k per annum and that 100k is dependent on appearances at international level?

Who announced that O'Gara was on 350K? Thats a first for any rugby player that their contract details are announced.

Also a source that says ROG had asked to stay at home for NZ and had been refused by the IRFU?

I'm guessing that his Munster contract would be worth about that (and I'm basing that amount on an article in the Irish Times written by Alan Quinlan who gave an outline what players would expect to be paid).

He said it in an interview and I can't remember when or where and I'm not going to waste any time looking for it.

Buer · 09-05-2013 4:16pm

jm08 wrote: »

He said it in an interview and I can't remember when or where and I'm not going to waste any time looking for it.

No offence, JM, but you claim an unmatched amount of things that you heard or read or saw but can't remember. It's happened several times in the last few pages alone.

Bogota · 09-05-2013 4:19pm

jm08 wrote: »

Who announced that O'Gara was on 350K? Thats a first for any rugby player that their contract details are announced.

It was reported in the Irish Daily Star published on the 19/11/2010 and mentioned here http://www.dailyedge.ie/the-morning-score-friday-5-48032-Nov2010/ on the daily sports pages round up.

I'm guessing that his Munster contract would be worth about that (and I'm basing that amount on an article in the Irish Times written by Alan Quinlan who gave an outline what players would expect to be paid).

He said it in an interview and I can't remember when or where and I'm not going to waste any time looking for it.

LOL so you have no sources whatsoever?

totallegend · 09-05-2013 4:21pm

Let it go lads.

jm08 · 09-05-2013 4:58pm

Bogota wrote: »

It was reported in the Irish Daily Star published on the 19/11/2010 and mentioned here http://www.dailyedge.ie/the-morning-score-friday-5-48032-Nov2010/ on the daily sports pages round up.

5. #DEAL The same day he learned that Jonathon Sexton would start against the All Blacks at Lansdowne Road tomorrow, Ronan O’Gara has signed a new two-year deal at Munster – worth around 350k per year, according to the Irish Daily Star.

We're meant to take the Daily Star as gospel? That reads like more of a guestimate to me.

]LOL so you have no sources whatsoever?

I do. Ronan O'Gara in an interview shortly after the tour. Could have been a radio interview (it was over 2 years ago). But since O'Gara gets quoted a lot it would take too long to actually find it.

Its hardly unbelieable that he would want to be close to home when his wife is about to have a child (which she did about a week after he got home).

Bogota · 09-05-2013 5:22pm

jm08 wrote: »

We're meant to take the Daily Star as gospel? That reads like more of a guestimate to me.

Apparently we're supposed to take what you say as gospel. Casey and Foley would be well respected rugby journalists (I'd say you haven't a notion tbh) and I'd take what they reported over you just making **** up.

I do. Ronan O'Gara in an interview shortly after the tour. Could have been a radio interview (it was over 2 years ago). But since O'Gara gets quoted a lot it would take too long to actually find it.

Its hardly unbelieable that he would want to be close to home when his wife is about to have a child (which she did about a week after he got home).

I refuse to get dragged into anymore of your nonsense. For the good of the thread I won't be responding to you anymore.

.ak · 09-05-2013 5:25pm

.ak wrote: »

Folks ROG isn't up for discussion here. Fine, if you want to use him as an example, but don't let the topic trail off as we all know where it leads.

Incase you missed it. We don't really need to go through rogs purse strings here.

Bogota · 10-05-2013 3:16pm

Not sure if its been posted..

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/8702040/jonathan-sexton-extended-interview

Jonny Sexton leaving Leinster *mod warning post 1*

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Jonny Sexton leaving Leinster mod warning post 1