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Alan Shatter doing his job!!!

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Comments

  • #92
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Hitchens wrote: »
    they were then judged by people who were too cowardly to fight the nazis, and whose leader sent his condolences to the nazi leadership on the death of Adolf :mad:
    I'm not going to defend deValera on the latter point, clearly this isn't a deValera thread, it's about the armed services.

    What deserves to be totally condemned is the idea that ordinary Irish servicemen, who despite shortages, took their task to defend Ireland quite seriously during the Emergency, were "too cowardly to fight the Nazis"

    What would you be saying if the British forces had been compelled, for strategic reasons, to invade Ireland during WWII? It is acknowledged that such an eventuality was openly considered a threat during WWII, meaning that ordinary Irishmen were aware of this possibility.

    Would the Irish deserters who ran off to join a potential enemy, knowing it may invade Ireland, been your heroes as they took back Irish territory for the Crown?


  • #93
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    SeanW wrote: »
    Irelands' only hope of remaining independent was keeping the bastards out - the so-called "deserters" helped to ensure the Nazis never got this far. Planning for guerilla resistance was all well and fine but if it had ever got to that stage, it would have been too late.
    Sorry Sean this argument originates in cloud cuckoo land.

    The deserters, thousands of them, were significant in number to the Irish armed forces - that is, they made up a significant proportion of the only military with focus on defending Ireland from aggression.

    But in terms of numbers, they were a proportionately irrelevant addition to the Allied forces.

    Of course they would have been better served protecting Irish independence stationed under Irish authority in Ireland.


  • #94
    Hitchens
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,097 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I'm not going to defend deValera on the latter point, clearly this isn't a deValera thread, it's about the armed services.

    What deserves to be totally condemned is the idea that ordinary Irish servicemen, who despite shortages, took their task to defend Ireland quite seriously during the Emergency, were "too cowardly to fight the Nazis"

    What would you be saying if the British forces had been compelled, for strategic reasons, to invade Ireland during WWII? It is acknowledged that such an eventuality was openly considered a threat during WWII, meaning that ordinary Irishmen were aware of this possibility.

    Would the Irish deserters who ran off to join a potential enemy, knowing it may invade Ireland, been your heroes as they took back Irish territory for the Crown?

    I wasn't referring to the ordinary Irish service men, no, it was the people who 'mattered' at the time I meant.

    Those who decided that the returning soldiers who fought the nazis should be ostracised, the same gimps who had drawn up a list of Irish Jews to hand over to the SS Einsatzgruppen.


  • #95
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Hitchens wrote: »
    Those who decided that the returning soldiers who fought the nazis should be ostracised, the same gimps who had drawn up a list of Irish Jews to hand over to the SS Einsatzgruppen.
    Are you sure you're not thinking of the IRA there.

    A totally different organization.


  • #96
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Are you sure you're not thinking of the IRA there.

    A totally different organization.


    I'm sorry, but whats that based on?


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  • #97
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • #98
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    awec wrote: »
    There really is no equating men who fought against the Nazis and those who fought for them.

    Unless you are totally oblivious to the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party and it's policies and actions throughout it's time in power.

    These men are quite rightly pardoned, it was the decent thing to do. The punishments given to them are pretty disgusting.

    Anyone who fought against the Nazis and their supporters, no matter what banner or flag they fought under is to be commended. They rid the world of an evil, the likes of which we haven't seen since.


    We haven't seen any dictatorships that murder people left right and centre since the nazis. Isn't it a nice little happy world we live in?


  • #99
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • #100
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but whats that based on?
    A rumour that the IRA were communicating with the Germans during WWII, and anticipating a German invasion, had drawn up a list of Irish Jews. Possibly a folk tale, but nothing to do with the Government or the Defence Forces either way.


  • #101
    Wildlife Actor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭Wildlife Actor


    SeanW wrote: »
    What worldview would that have been?

    Read the rest of my post.
    SeanW wrote: »
    Forget about guerilla warfare, the Nazis were vermin that would have sooner destroyed everything in Ireland and murdered every last man woman and child than tolerate a guerilla opposition, if they had invaded here.

    Hindsight's a great thing isn't it. Bandwaggonry 60 odd years later. Hope we're on the right side in Mali. And if we're not, it'll be another 60 years before any deserter get's his pardon too...


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  • #102
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    awec wrote: »
    So where did you get that from my post, or did you just make it up?
    awec wrote: »
    They rid the world of an evil, the likes of which we haven't seen since.

    I think we have seen plenty of evil since WW2 and continue to see it.


  • #103
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • #104
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • #105
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    awec wrote: »
    Yes, but again that's not at all what I said.

    We have not seen anything on the scale of the Nazi party.

    So evil is measured in numbers?


  • #106
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    EURATS wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wwii-irish-troops-set-for-pardons-29248191.html


    Nice to see Shatter making good use of his time.

    What's next? Apologise for the War of Independence?

    Fair play to him, these men were hero's during this states most shameful period in its short history.


  • #107
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    SamHall wrote: »
    Seeing as how 'the blue shirts' fought with the Nazis as allies alongside Franco, it would be hypocritical for shatter to say anything else tbh.

    Not to mention the Sinn Fein support for Nazism and the numbers of so called "republicans" who happily sided with them.
    Hardly surprising I suppose when the founder of Sf was such a virulent anti semite that he put Hitler and his gang in the halfpenny place!


  • #108
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Not to mention the Sinn Fein support for Nazism and the numbers of so called "republicans" who happily sided with them.

    I'm not quite sure what SF have to do with this issue, and why you felt the need to mention this to me, but you may be aware that Sinn Fein have voted in favour of issuing apolgies/pardons to these soldiers from mid-last year.
    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Hardly surprising I suppose when the founder of Sf was such a virulent anti semite that he put Hitler and his gang in the halfpenny place!

    Are you trying to play trump's with founding party members or what?

    The founding member of the FG party was an IRA man, who fought with the fascist's and Nazis in Spain.


  • #109
    John Mongo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    This apology and pardon should never have happened.

    Firstly, there is no evidence at all to prove that all of the deserter's left to join the BA. Also, it's not simply a case of men taking up an honourable cause and going to fight the Germans for the greater good, pay and conditions were far better in the BA than the DF at the time.

    Secondly, those men betrayed the oath they swore, they betrayed their comrades and they betrayed the State at a time when they were sworn to it's defence. This apology and pardon implies that those men were right in what they did, that the men who stayed at home and stood ready to defend their country were somehow wrong for doing so.

    To anyone who thinks they were right for deserting and joining the BA or that it somehow served Ireland's interests, I'd invite them to visit the Military Archives in Cathal Brugha Barracks and have a look at the British invasion plans for Ireland during WW2. A plan which would have seen the very same British Army that those "heroic" men joined, invade this country and deal with the DF accordingly.

    Those men swore an oath, they served this country and as soldiers, they are expected to follow and carry out all lawful orders, whether they like them or not. That is the life you choose as a soldier.

    People can attempt to dress it up anyway they want, those men are deserters. Simple as.


  • #110
    John Mongo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    Cedrus wrote: »
    In six pages this is the only mention of a court martial which shows that the mean minded attitudes have not changed, not many here want to know anything about the history or the facts, just get the rope out!

    Most if not all of the people on the blacklist were never court martialed, their names were just added to a list by allegation of any officer with no need for any evidence and no right of response, furthermore no officers names were added to the list, only soldiers and sappers.

    This is what the apology is for. Some of them undoubtedly deserved to be punished but all of them deserved a trial, what they got was a lynching.

    No need for any evidence?

    Once they went AWOL, their name would have been posted in their Unit RO's as AWOL on whatever date, then would've been sent further up the chain of the Formation(At the time). When they presented themselves again, their name would have been posted in Unit RO's as having returned from being AWOL and again, would have worked it's way up the chain of the formation.

    There's your evidence, in simple black and white. They went AWOL on a certain date and presented themselves on a certain date. Simples.

    As for court martials, there wasn't enough money to run court martials for thousands of troops, along with nowhere to house them once convicted, which they most certainly would have been.


  • #111
    RADIUS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭RADIUS


    karma_ wrote: »
    These men broke an oath and deserted. It does not matter that they then fought against Nazis, they abandoned their state during a time of war. Was their treatment unfair by today's standards? Undoubtedly yes. However, even today if you desert the UK forces you face life imprisonment which by any standard is a harsher penalty.

    These men fought for what was morally right and just, putting aside any petty politics or grudges. Many Irish did not agree with the Irish government at the time and how it bullied people into being anti British. They saw a duty to their fellow man as a higher calling then their duty to a corrupt republic.


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  • #112
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,930 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    RADIUS wrote: »
    These men fought for what was morally right and just, putting aside any petty politics or grudges. Many Irish did not agree with the Irish government at the time and how it bullied people into being anti British. They saw a duty to their fellow man as a higher calling then their duty to a corrupt republic.

    Doesnt matter they disobeyed orders and left an army they swore an oath to.
    Yes they should have been discharged but the ostracisation put upon them was disgusting and does need to be apologised for but they shouldnt be pardoned


  • #113
    RADIUS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭RADIUS


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Doesnt matter they disobeyed orders and left an army they swore an oath to.
    Yes they should have been discharged but the ostracisation put upon them was disgusting and does need to be apologised for but they shouldnt be pardoned


    Exactly it doesn't matter. If a Nazi soldier went awol because he did not agree with what his army was doing would he also have been wrong to do so?


  • #114
    John Mongo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    RADIUS wrote: »
    Exactly it doesn't matter. If a Nazi soldier went awol because he did not agree with what his army was doing would he also have been wrong to do so?

    A Nazi soldier would have been a conscript. He wouldn't have had a choice in joining in the first place.

    A member of the DF at that time, joined the DF voluntarily. He was in no way forced into the job or forced to stay in the job.

    How in sweet **** is it a valid comparison anyway? One Army exterminated millions, the other decided it wanted no part in a conflict where both sides were weighing off an invasion.


  • #115
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,930 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    RADIUS wrote: »
    Exactly it doesn't matter. If a Nazi soldier went awol because he did not agree with what his army was doing would he also have been wrong to do so?

    Yes in the sense he would have been disobeying orders no in the sense of the greater good they are not one and the same. If they had won what do you think would have happened to him?
    Also he was directly involved our army wasnt that is the difference. We might have gotten involved at some stage and needed our army to defend against the nazis or the allies. Because of what these soldiers did be it for the greater good or not was wrong and they deserved to be discharged however i will say again the ostracisation was way over the top.


  • #116
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Fair play to him, these men were hero's during this states most shameful period in its short history.

    Considering the country you are obviously loyal to intended to invade us as well..I can't see why any Irish person would consider these deserters to be heroes. All armies involved in WW2 were murderers on a grand scale. The army you support continues to murder people around the world as we speak!


  • #117
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Would the Irish deserters who ran off to join a potential enemy, knowing it may invade Ireland, been your heroes as they took back Irish territory for the Crown?

    You mean like the Allies did with Iceland?

    The Irish army did not fight, and would never have fought because, by itself, it could never have won by conventional military means. The difference between an Allied and Axis invasion was that the Axis would likely install a puppet government when leaving, or possibly siphon off territory to its allies.

    Although Irish men could fight a guerrilla war, such men need not have been in the army, it would have been arms, not organisation, that they would have needed. And IRA guerrillas would have sided with an Axis invasion.

    The Irish army would have only ever been used as a formal organisation in conjunction with an Allied force.


  • #118
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


  • #119
    John Mongo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭John Mongo


    awec wrote: »
    So, the issue here is not that they went and fought against the Nazis, but they did so fighting with the Brits? That clears things up somewhat, at least it gives some perspective on why people on this thread are completely ignoring the situation in WW2 and what the Nazi party was.

    How anyone can even sit and try and argue that fighting against the Nazi's was wrong is beyond me.

    The issue is they deserted during a national emergency. At a time when this country faced invasion from both sides of the conflict.

    They deserted, they betrayed the oath they swore and shouldn't have been pardoned. Simples.


  • #120
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,025 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    John Mongo wrote: »
    The issue is they deserted during a national emergency. At a time when this country faced invasion from both sides of the conflict.

    They deserted, they betrayed the oath they swore and shouldn't have been pardoned. Simples.

    it was still the right thing to do, and i'm sure it was worth it even with the f**ed up mind games and sadistic punishment our ultra catholic "government" imposed on them.


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  • #121
    EURATS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    it was still the right thing to do, and i'm sure it was worth it even with the f**ed up mind games and sadistic punishment our ultra catholic "government" imposed on them.

    In your opinion!!!


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