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Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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Comments

  • #302
    Bookworm85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    There are girls so scared and desperate. For goodness sake there was a girl a few years ago committed suicide because her parents told her all A's was the only acceptable Junior Cert results and she got one B. Could you imagine a girl with horrifically strict parents coming home pregnant. As I said, my mother made it clear, she rather me dead than pregnant, and it was NOT her just trying to protect me. They may not be suicidal, but may be so terrified of their parents that they would do anything :( They would be seen as "abusers" of this legislation. :rolleyes:

    Sorry, I should have worded my post differently. I wholeheartedly agree with your post. I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone and I personally wouldn't view anybody in those circumstances to be "abusing" the legislation. Like you said they are utterly desperate. Its the idea that has been put about by the prolife crowd that any pregnant woman who is suicidal is only chancing their arm.


  • #303
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    username123 wrote: »
    And wolfpawnat - you were not the only young girl living in fear, I was told NOT to come home at all if I was coming home pregnant.

    And there are more than us and you know it. Now they have put these girls at risk of prison for taking matters into their own hands!

    In nursing you were trained to recognized a home abortion situation, bottle of vodka and nicking the plug, all these sorts of drugs ordered online, etc. The code of practice was to look after the woman and ensure her health, refer her to a counselling service if needed. I am so glad I didn't get to qualify, I could not be the one to call the gardaí on a girl that would do it after this legislation comes to pass. :(


  • #304
    tinkerbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    I have to say I'm furious that the government are such useless incompetent fools bringing this stupid legislation in. I cannot believe that they say that a woman would get 14 years jail, it is just disgusting. Who the hell are they to decide whether a woman wants to go through pregnancy or not? It makes me so bloody mad. They don't give two craps about the woman in this, until a woman's on the verge of death then it's not a threat to her life. It's just so wrong, immoral and disgusting.

    Once a woman becomes pregnant in this country, it seems that she is far less important than the foetus. She has no rights whatsoever. The government should be ashamed of themselves. :mad:


  • #305
    stinkle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭stinkle


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    There are girls so scared and desperate. For goodness sake there was a girl a few years ago committed suicide because her parents told her all A's was the only acceptable Junior Cert results and she got one B. Could you imagine a girl with horrifically strict parents coming home pregnant. As I said, my mother made it clear, she rather me dead than pregnant, and it was NOT her just trying to protect me. They may not be suicidal, but may be so terrified of their parents that they would do anything :( They would be seen as "abusers" of this legislation. :rolleyes:

    Good point, and one thing that's been going through my mind that sets pregnant suicidal women apart from any other suicidal person is the immediacy of the situation. I imagine in a crisis pregnancy there's possibly disbelief at first, perhaps wasting time waiting for a "late period" that never comes. Maybe doing a home test/going to gp. Then once its all sunk in, worrying about people finding out (eg morning sickness) and hoping to have a termination before starting to show/reaching the cutoff time limit if a load of doctors have to have their say. Add in hormones and no wonder she's in turmoil. Its further complicated if shes still in school/living at home/already has kids to care for/in an abusive relationship/can't afford to travel etc. I dread to think how awful it is in situations of rape/incest.

    A person can feel suicidal given their immediate circumstances. They may not actually want to die but may want their problems to go away and feel like there's no other option. They're still suicidal and I hope anyone in that position is treated with dignity, compassion and respect if they opt for this Irish solution to an Irish problem


  • #306
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Bookworm85 wrote: »
    Sorry, I should have worded my post differently. I wholeheartedly agree with your post. I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone and I personally wouldn't view anybody in those circumstances to be "abusing" the legislation. Like you said they are utterly desperate. Its the idea that has been put about by the prolife crowd that any pregnant woman who is suicidal is only chancing their arm.

    There will always be that tripe, I went looking on pro-life sites and pages earlier, they think 3 is too little, they can be bribed apparently :rolleyes:

    There are very few, if any figures on suicidal pregnant women, from what I have gathered, they are not a large portion of the suicides in Ireland every year, so I would imagine it will be very few going to the "tribunal" (it reminds of one with everyone involved) with this situation. Many seem to think every woman with a moment of doubt in pregnancy will be lining up like larger dole queues around the street corners for an abortion.


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  • #307
    Bookworm85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    There will always be that tripe, I went looking on pro-life sites and pages earlier, they think 3 is too little, they can be bribed apparently :rolleyes:

    I had a brief look at Frontline last night on RTE. It only caught a few seconds of it but there was a clinical psychologist/psychiatrist (cant recall which) having it out with another woman on the prolife side who was suggesting (and I'm paraphrasing) that women who present as suicidal to be sectioned!!!!!!!!!! I had to change the channel before I put my fist through the screen.


  • #308
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Bookworm85 wrote: »
    I had a brief look at Frontline last night on RTE. It only caught a few seconds of it but there was a clinical psychologist/psychiatrist (cant recall which) having it out with another woman on the prolife side who was suggesting (and I'm paraphrasing) that women who present as suicidal to be sectioned!!!!!!!!!! I had to change the channel before I put my fist through the screen.

    Oh yes, that is what we should do with those poor women, lock them up and then I suppose take the babies off them when they are born and leave them in places until they are deemed fit to rejoin society, sound familiar?

    Though as I said already it makes you wonder what the situation would be where the foetus has passed the 24 week mark and the mother is suicidal.


  • #309
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm so ashamed of this country. Why is it so difficult for our politicians to tackle this issue properly? They're terrified of upsetting the so called pro-lifers, but they're completely out of touch with the mood of the general public.

    Even though it sometimes feels like it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference, keep on emailing TDs. Tell them how pissed off you are.


  • #310
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Ireland is still like a Catholic version of an Islamic state, I'v read every post here and to think half of the population can be treated in this manner by a minority of religious bigots is fairly insulting and pathetic.


  • #311
    Bookworm85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Oh yes, that is what we should do with those poor women, lock them up and then I suppose take the babies off them when they are born and leave them in places until they are deemed fit to rejoin society, sound familiar?

    Though as I said already it makes you wonder what the situation would be where the foetus has passed the 24 week mark and the mother is suicidal.

    Gosh, now that you mention it it's a wonder they never tried that before! Maybe The Church could help them with that :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Hmm, it's not something that I have a definite opinion on. Do I think that abortion at such a late stage is right? Not in every case, no. But I am sure there will be some cases where it is warranted/necessary (unviability, deformities, immediate intervention needed). If the developing child is healthy and has every chance of surviving then maybe it can be cared for like other pre-term babies and hopefully returned to the mother if she feels like she can cope and has the necessary supports.......... I dunno.... Its a hard one :(:(


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  • #312
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    The governments hands are tied, they can only legislate for the x case as abortion on demand was rejected in the last referendum on this matter. People will of course disagree on the implementation saying its too strict or there are too many hurdles to pass, others will say its not strict enough.


  • #313
    Frito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Frito


    jank wrote: »
    The governments hands are tied, they can only legislate for the x case as abortion on demand was rejected in the last referendum on this matter. People will of course disagree on the implementation saying its too strict or there are too many hurdles to pass, others will say its not strict enough.

    But I think this bill applies a different standard to a psychiatric emergency than a medical one. A woman experiencing suicidal ideation will go through a lengthier assessment than one with an ectopic pregnancy. That is unfair.
    I wonder if it constitutes discrimination.


  • #314
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    jank wrote: »
    The governments hands are tied
    They wouldn't be if they held a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment :pac:


  • #315
    Thunderbird2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭Thunderbird2


    All for abortion . ... Everyone should have the choice .. If you don't like it then don't opt for it. The decision should only be the parents and no one else's as it won't effect anyone else . If you're against abortion then you should also be against the morning after pill .


  • #316
    SparkySpitfire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭SparkySpitfire


    Thanks for this thread, just sent a letter to all 5 of my TDs! :)


  • #317
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    They wouldn't be if they held a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment :pac:

    Not, going to happen any time soon I think.


  • #318
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Frito wrote: »
    But I think this bill applies a different standard to a psychiatric emergency than a medical one. A woman experiencing suicidal ideation will go through a lengthier assessment than one with an ectopic pregnancy. That is unfair.
    I wonder if it constitutes discrimination.

    One cannot lie about bleeding to death or developing a life threatening infection. If someone is feeling sucidal about being pregnant and the only cure to that state of mind is an abortion then the state is obliged under the consitution to assess the credabilty of that claim before carrying about said abortion.
    Thunderbird2 wrote: »
    All for abortion . ... Everyone should have the choice .. If you don't like it then don't opt for it. The decision should only be the parents and no one else's as it won't effect anyone else . If you're against abortion then you should also be against the morning after pill .

    What if one parent wants it and the other doesn't? Would the woman have the veto in this regard so in essance, it is the womans choice at the end of the day? The father has no say whatsoever.

    Also, it does affect an unborn child, hence the reason why this topic is so contentious. I am not aware of any state that gives the woman a carte blanche in this matter.


  • #319
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Reilly: Women refused termination could face spending pregnancy in psychiatric unit

    Literally no words for that.


  • #320
    kat.mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭kat.mac


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Reilly: Women refused termination could face spending pregnancy in psychiatric unit

    Literally no words for that.

    Oh right.

    Every day that goes by, I want less and less to become pregnant in this country.


  • #321
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    As Victoria White writes in the Examiner on the issue:

    "The only Irish women who will be left looking at the Protection of Life during Pregnancy law will be women so disadvantaged by their health or educational or economic status that they can’t get out. "


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  • #322
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Originally Posted by rainbow kirby viewpost.gif
    Reilly: Women refused termination could face spending pregnancy in psychiatric unit

    Literally no words for that.

    That has to breach international human rights :S


  • #323
    ilikepears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭ilikepears


    They are doing these things because they actually want women to go aboard for abortions. They are going to make it as difficult as possible and scare off women having an abortion here. Why should women have to prove that the are suicidal to have an abortion. The reality is a large majority of women are still going to go to the UK. But for these who can't due to financial reasons, who are probably the most vulnerable women in our society, they get to stay here and literally fight for an abortion. It a disgrace. These are the women we should be protecting and helping but instead they have to go through this ridiculous system.


  • #324
    ilikepears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭ilikepears


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    That has to breach international human rights :S

    Maybe I'm being a bit drastic but it literally sounds like the Magdalene Laundries all over again except its 2013.


  • #325
    Thunderbird2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭Thunderbird2


    I only mentioned it being the parents choice to avoid any touchy feely arguments ... I completely agree its only the women's choice.( but if the man wanted the child aborted then he shouldn't be given visitation rights and have to pay maintenance since its the woman's choice to keep the child )
    It won't affect the foetus as it won't even realise what's happening .
    Can you remember being in the womb ?


  • #326
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,446 ✭✭✭Morag


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    So they didn't put in a gestation length time? Dear Jesus, this seems to be the most hobbled together piece of legislation since the formation of the state. My legal knowledge is mediocre at best and I noticed that was not addressed. We are being led by idiots!

    They can't limit a legal right with a time frame.
    The right to end the pregnancy where a woman is at risk of self destruction can't be limited.

    Where the pregnancy is not viable it will mean an abortion.
    Where the pregnancy is viable it means the premature baby will be rushed to neonatal care and the woman can then choose to give up her parental rights and have the child adopted.


  • #327
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,446 ✭✭✭Morag


    Please if you think that the measure in the bill are wrong, please please email or ring your TDs. The anti choice side have people sitting their office on phone lines spending the day ringing. The pro choice /abortion rights groups don't have any paid staff what so ever never mind a office and a phone line. So please take the time to email and ring and tell that what they are proposing is a mockery and insulting to women.

    http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/04/26/contact-your-tds-demand-accessible-abortion-legislation-from-your-tds/

    http://phonebook.oireachtas.ie/


  • #328
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    kat.mac wrote: »
    Oh right.

    Every day that goes by, I want less and less to become pregnant in this country.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling like this. I just wish I had somewhere else to go.


  • #329
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,227 ✭✭✭Solair


    Macha wrote: »
    As Victoria White writes in the Examiner on the issue:

    "The only Irish women who will be left looking at the Protection of Life during Pregnancy law will be women so disadvantaged by their health or educational or economic status that they can’t get out. "

    Don't forget women from countries that require visas to enter the UK who have permanent residence here.

    This is a huge issue for Chinese women for example! I know of several who were absolutely horrified when they found out the situation and are considering options before getting pregnant here !

    If they were gravely ill, they wouldn't just be able to hop on a plane to England or NL. They'd have to first apply for a visa!


  • #330
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    I don't understand. If the doctors find that a woman is not suicidal, how can they detain her in a psychiatric unit?

    I am so angry about this. Women who are suicidal are not going to risk approaching anyone in case they are forced to carry their pregnancy to term while being held somewhere against their will.

    They could always order a pill in the post. Oh no, wait, they'll get 14 years in prison for that. :mad:

    I'll be emailing all my TDs and some others today, not that the majority of them bother to get back to me usually.


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  • #331
    PinkFly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭PinkFly


    What annoys me so much is women who know they are carrying babies that have no chance of survival having to go to England for terminations! It's just sick to think our own country is still so backward to see the wrong in this.


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