Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

rainbow kirby

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

I'll be emailing all my TDs and some others today, not that the majority of them bother to get back to me usually.

I emailed 9 TD's at the weekend - the ones in Dublin South-West (where I'm still registered) and Dublin South-Central (where I live now). The only ones that got back to me were from Labour and Sinn Fein, the FG ones just seem to ignore everything.

vitani

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I emailed 9 TD's at the weekend - the ones in Dublin South-West (where I'm still registered) and Dublin South-Central (where I live now). The only ones that got back to me were from Labour and Sinn Fein, the FG ones just seem to ignore everything.

I emailed mine a few months ago - heard back from Leo Varadkar (FG) and Patrick Nulty (Labour). Nothing from Joan Burton, Joe Higgins or any Senator.

Das Kitty

PinkFly wrote: »

What annoys me so much is women who know they are carrying babies that have no chance of survival having to go to England for terminations! It's just sick to think our own country is still so backward to see the wrong in this.

Being a walking coffin, I heard it described as. Wretched.

At least it seems that the issue of women diagnosed with cancer will be dealt with here.

Morag

Even if they don't reply it gets recorded by their staff that they got X number of contact re the issue and that tally does make a difference.

clairefontaine

Essentially this brings to the forefront something I have always suspected all along, that there is no such thing as rights, not for fathers, not for mothers, not for suicidal women, not for anyone in Ireland. That the HSE, the psych units, the social workers, et all are merely instruments for the state and that is tied up in ad hoc legislation and enforcement.

Why is anyone suprised at the suicide angle? That is the first thing that came to my mind, they can not only lock you up, but they can call you an unfit mother due to mental health issues and take the baby.

Anyone having deja vu? No you did not step out of a time machine. Nothing ever changed.

The Children's rights referendum also was about removing rights from parents and putting them into the hands of the state, and now the baby you are carrying also belongs to the state.

Given the state of Obstetrics and gynecology in Ireland, it would still probably be safer to travel to England. There are many who practise health tourism already in this country.

sunshine and showers

I emailed my TDs regarding legislating for the X Case last November/December. I didn't get a reply from all five of them (not shocking). However, I did get a comprehensive reply from Labour TD Gerald Nash, who has just sent me the following email as a follow up:

Dear -

As you previously contacted me calling for legislation to deal with the findings of the X-Case, I would like to take this opportunity to update you on the Heads of Bill announced by the cabinet yesterday. The legislation will be in the context of the X Case judgement and will deal with instances where there is a threat to the life of a woman from either a medical emergency, a medical condition or a risk of suicide. The provisions are workable and closely reflect the Expert Group recommendations, and indeed my position and that of the Labour Party for a considerable number of years.
There are three scenarios outlined in the Heads of Bill:

1) In case of emergency situations:

Where there is immediate risk to the life of a pregnant woman in an emergency situation one registered medical professional will be required to certify whether a termination of pregnancy is necessary to save her life.

2) In case of a physical illness:

Where there is a risk to the life of the woman due to a physical illness, two consultant doctors (one of whom is an obstetrician, and one of a relevant specialism), will be required to jointly certify, in good faith, that there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the pregnant woman, and that in their reasonable opinion this risk can by averted only by termination of the pregnancy.

3) In case of threat to life from suicide:

Where there is a threat to the life of the woman due to the risk of suicide, three consultant doctors, will be required (one obstetrician and two psychiatrists) to certify the need for a termination of pregnancy arising from a real and substantial risk to the life of the woman, as above. The requirement for two psychiatrists is reflected in the recommendations of the Expert Group, which draws attention to the potentially greater challenges in diagnosing suicidal intent.

If a woman has consulted with her doctors in relation to whether there is a real and substantial risk to her life as a result of continuing with her pregnancy, and those doctors are not of the opinion that a termination of pregnancy is necessary to save her life, the pregnant woman may request a review of that decision. The review must be carried out in a time-limited fashion (review convened in not less than 7 days from receipt of application, result delivered in not less than 7 days from first convening). The provisions for how the reviewing doctors would be selected are set out in the legislation, and reflect the recommendations of the Expert Group.

Legislating for the X Case is a serious and legally complex issue, however it is first and foremost about protecting the life of the woman. Today is a significant day in relation to protecting women's lives in this country. For over 20 years, the Labour Party has been a strong, and most often, a lone voice on the need to act in relation to the X Case.

The agreement on the Heads of Bill is testament to Labour’s determination to comprehensively deal with this sensitive issue and provide clarity to ensure women's lives are protected. I hope this letter has provided you with some clarity on the legislation. If you have questions on this or indeed on any other issue of concern to you, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely,

Gerald Nash

Labour really thinks that this legislation is good enough? I despair.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Jaysus, something like this makes me sad.

So it has basically come to pass. Abortion legislation is being announced today. A sad day for children, women, Ireland, humanity and Christianity as a whole. Ironic for Catholics too that it is being announced on May Day, Mary being Gods female patron. I just cant understand it. As a parent, if my child needed a heart transplant, I would gladly give him mine. We are one step further away from being human, ond one step closer to being animals today.

Nymeria

Haven't posted yet but I have been reading this thread every day for the last few weeks. I agree with everyone else, and seem to get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach the more this goes on. Like most other women I feel that our rights are being undermined and crapped on from a great height, and it makes me so angry and frustrated.

A few months ago I thought that the only good thing to come from a tragedy like the death of Savita was that action would be taken and this issue would finally be dealt with. I can't believe how this has turned out - the more I read/ hear from the government the more I think their agenda is to shame women and 'put them in their place', lest we get ahead of ourselves and think we can be so audacious as to make choices about our own bodies and lives.

Frankly, we are under siege from a bunch of conservative old sh!tes who are terrified of being seen as 'liberals', so they ignore the very real fact that women in this country DO have abortions, because they NEED them; it's a medical necessity for people at their most vulnerable and desperate. The fact that we have to travel abroad in order to obtain this is shameful.

I'm so angry disgusted that not only have they not dealt with the issue in a meaningful way, they have endeavoured to punish desperate people even more with this 14 year imprisonment threat if women who don't have the financial or practical means try to travel take matters into their own hands.

Please lets get real here, any woman who would be so desperate as to order an abortion pill online, or go through some other dodgy means is obviously desperate and sees no other way - she needs to be shown compassion and understanding, she does not need to be threatened with a jail term!!

I have always tried to vote independent and would urge everybody to remember the shenanigans of FG and the apathy of Labour when the next election comes around.

And thank you to those who posted links to TDs, I will be emailing them to rant as well.

Reading threads like this restore my faith that there are other compassionate people out there who are equally appalled and frustrated. Otherwise we could be forgiven for thinking that the Ani-Choice agenda is the only one on offer.

Nymeria

Super_sonic that quote is depressing.


Dear whoever that is - feel free to be sad about it all you like, abortion legislation will not affect your life one bit if you don't want it to. And so what if you are a parent, its not like this bill means that people will come in the night and take away your child FFS! Your religious beliefs should have no bearing on other people's rights.

mel1

This isnt going to go down well but...I think we were doing just fine until Savita Halappanavar came along.

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

I wonder would this have been such a big deal if it were an Irish catholic who was in the hospital at the time. I imagine that "because this is an Irish catholic country and we dont do abortion" wouldnt have been half a big an issue. Its just accepted because thats the country you live in.

This isnt about pro or against life. If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

sunshine and showers

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt going to go down well but...I think we were doing just fine until Savita Halappanavar came along.

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

I wonder would this have been such a big deal if it were an Irish catholic who was in the hospital at the time. I imagine that "because this is an Irish catholic country and we dont do abortion" wouldnt have been half a big an issue. Its just accepted because thats the country you live in.

This isnt about pro or against life. If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

Actually, you're wrong. Totally wrong.

The eighth amendment guaranteeing the right to life of the unborn, with equal regard to the life of the mother was passed in 1983.

Then the X case happened. In the X case, Miss X (a 14 year old who had been raped) claimed that her pregnancy was making her suicidal. The Supreme Court interpreted our constitution as allowing for suicide as a risk to the life of the mother that would allow for an abortion in Ireland.

And then... nothing. Until now, the governments of Ireland have never recognised that fact that under the Irish constitution there are cases in which women are entitled to an abortion in this country.

Two Fianna Fáil governments put referendums to the people asking them to remove the threat of suicide as a reason to allow a woman to have an abortion. Both of these were rejected. I believe that these are the two times in your "voting history" that you are referring to, as there have been no other votes on the issue of abortion.


You are correct in saying that this is not a pro-life or pro-choice question, but a question of Irish law. You're just not correct in what you perceive as the "problem" here. The problem is that Irish women are not being given access to their constitutional rights, which is illegal under Irish law.

clairefontaine

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt going to go down well but...I think we were doing just fine until Savita Halappanavar came along.

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

I wonder would this have been such a big deal if it were an Irish catholic who was in the hospital at the time. I imagine that "because this is an Irish catholic country and we dont do abortion" wouldnt have been half a big an issue. Its just accepted because thats the country you live in.

This isnt about pro or against life. If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

No one would have cared if it were an Irish woman.

A lot of people do move somewhere else because they don't like the laws or the way of life. Have you noticed the emigration figures since the 1950s?

Vote with your feet folks. I'd like to see the whole country emigrate.

Morag

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt going to go down well but...I think we were doing just fine until Savita Halappanavar came along.

We weren't, which is why we had the X case and the D Case and ABC cases in the EU court of human rights.

mel1 wrote: »

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

And what about those who can not travel?

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt about pro or against life. If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

No this is my country, I am Irish, this is a democracy and I will keep fighting for my rights and the rights of others.

vitani

mel1 wrote: »

If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

No, thanks. I'd prefer to stay and try and make my country better.

Nymeria

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt about pro or against life. If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

Ah yes, the 'Irish' way of life. Is that the one where Mary stays in the kitchen making the bread and taking care of the babies while Tommy is out ploughing the fields :P. There is no one-way-fits-all way of life for everybody.

I find 'if you don't like it, move somewhere else' a strange and frankly impractical suggestion. What if over the last few decades the rights of women to obtain contraception, to divorce, to work after marriage had never happened. Would you have just accepted it as 'the Irish way of life' and moved somewhere else, even though you were being treated like a second class citizen in the country of your birth, or would you have fought for something you believed in a made a change.

Apathy regarding ' let's just leave things the way they are' has negatively affected the rights of so many people for so long. Its only uncomfortable but necessary change that has made progress happen. Laws change over time because perceptions of morality changes over time. We are only just coming out of the fog of the stranglehold of the Catholic church in this country so the changes will be uneasy for some.

However, the existence of civil rights allows people the freedom to practice whatever beliefs they chose. I personally believe religion is a load of crap, but I will not stop other people from exercising their civil rights. See how that works

Only recently the laws on gay marriage have changed in France and New Zealand. Prior to that should every gay couple who wanted to marry just accepted that and 'moved somewhere else'.

And I don't think we were doing 'just fine' before all this. Many many people were frustrated at the lack of progress on this issue, despite Supreme court rulings and European court judgements. Our government seem only to be capable of reacting in a knee-jerk way to things that they are reluctantly forced to deal with.

clairefontaine

Morag wrote: »

We weren't, which is why we had the X case and the D Case and ABC cases in the EU court of human rights.




And what about those who can not travel?



No this is my country, I am Irish, this is a democracy and I will keep fighting for my rights and the rights of others.

This is not a democracy. This is a theocracy.

rainbow kirby

mel1 wrote: »

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

Actually, every referendum after the 8th amendment passed in 1983 which tried to tighten up the laws (by removing suicide risk as grounds for abortion etc) failed. It's taken 21 years to move millimeters since the X case judgement was made.

Why should anyone in a vulnerable position have to travel? Why can't they avail of the services they need here? This creates a catch-22 for some of the women in the most desperate positions, who cannot afford to travel or are restricted in other ways (visas required for the UK/France/Netherlands etc).

mel1 wrote: »

I wonder would this have been such a big deal if it were an Irish catholic who was in the hospital at the time. I imagine that "because this is an Irish catholic country and we dont do abortion" wouldnt have been half a big an issue. Its just accepted because thats the country you live in.

If it was an Irish woman it would have been easier for the case to be ignored and for a bit of a HSE whitewash to take place - there are almost certainly other women out there who have met a similar fate yet their cases were not publicized. The fact that it was someone who is not an Irish citizen meant that it came to the attention of the international media.

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt about pro or against life. If you dont like the Irish laws and way of life, move somewhere else.

So people should just put up or shut up about everything they believe to be unfair or unjust? That's absolute rubbish and part of what's wrong with this country - we don't stand up for ourselves nearly enough.

From my own point of view - I will keep fighting, and I will NOT shut up until women's rights are respected in Irish law. If I have to do that from outside this country I will.

goose2005

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

It won't affect the foetus as it won't even realise what's happening .
Can you remember being in the womb ?

Of course not, and that's one argument that should be made more forcefully. The nervous system of a foetus is very primitive and I think a pre-consciousness organism can't be considered a human being

Macha wrote: »

As Victoria White writes in the Examiner on the issue:

"The only Irish women who will be left looking at the Protection of Life during Pregnancy law will be women so disadvantaged by their health or educational or economic status that they can’t get out. "

Don't forget prisoners.

lilmissprincess

I am Irish. I was born here, I've never lived anywhere else. This doesn't stop me from wanting better. This should not mean that I deserve a lesser level of healthcare, empathy and autonomy over my own body than women in other countries. We are a developed country with a supposed democracy which is meant to preach equality and a good standard of life for all. In truth, its good standard of life for all, unless you're a woman who has the audacity to fall pregnant and not have a completely wondrous pregnancy.

The fact that I can be told if I don't like it move is not good enough. What is so wrong for wanting better? If people stopped focusing on saving our souls and focused on saving our bodies - it would be a marginally fairer system.

kat.mac

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt going to go down well but...I think we were doing just fine until Savita Halappanavar came along.

Until she CAME ALONG???

Apart from the factual inaccuracies in your post, which have been clearly corrected by other posters, it sounds as if you view her death as more of a fly in the ointment than the horrific and completely preventable tragedy that it was.

FouxDaFaFa

mel1 wrote: »

This isnt going to go down well but...I think we were doing just fine until Savita Halappanavar came along.

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England.

Savita could hardly trot on to England so someone would help her, could she?

I don't believe that I should have to wait until I am pregnant and dying (not just sick, but about to die) before a doctor can help me.

I don't believe there should be a 14 year sentence for ordering an abortion pill. Larry Murphy served less time in prison than a woman who did this would.

I don't believe that if a pregnant woman is not found to be suicidal enough, she should be detained in a psychiatric ward against her will.

If you want to die or risk your life for a foetus, that should be your right and I would fight for you to be able to do that. However, it should be a choice.

I don't wish to be condemned to barbaric treatment because of my sex.

username123

mel1 wrote: »

If you want so badly to have an abortion trot on to England. I believe the people have voted for this twice in my voteing history and have decided we did not want it in our country.

This kind of grossly ignorant attitude is really why the subject of abortion angers me so much.

sunshine and showers

lilmissprincess wrote: »

I am Irish. I was born here, I've never lived anywhere else. This doesn't stop me from wanting better. This should not mean that I deserve a lesser level of healthcare, empathy and autonomy over my own body than women in other countries. We are a developed country with a supposed democracy which is meant to preach equality and a good standard of life for all. In truth, its good standard of life for all, unless you're a woman who has the audacity to fall pregnant and not have a completely wondrous pregnancy.

The fact that I can be told if I don't like it move is not good enough. What is so wrong for wanting better? If people stopped focusing on saving our souls and focused on saving our bodies - it would be a marginally fairer system.

What will women expect next, the right to vote? Oh, wait...

The argument "if you don't like it, feck off somewhere else" is ridiculous, pointless, and offensive to democracy.

Pepe LeFrits

vitani wrote: »

I'd absolutely agree with that. It was put to a vote and the people of this country voted in favour of keeping a risk of suicide as grounds for termination. No TD should have the right to vote against the decision made in a referendum, regardless of their own personal beliefs.

If a TD doesn't have a choice then a vote is worthless.

Lucinda wasn't elected by a referendum, she was elected by the people of DSE. Say what you like about her but I don't think she's been hiding her views on this. People elected her as their representative based on what her views are, and now she's expressing them. That's what representative democracy is.

Anyway, this legislation depresses me. I guess because so many of the FGers I know would belong to the more socially liberal wing of the party, I was expecting better. I wish FG and FF would just be dissolved and new parties formed so I wouldn't have to decide whether I want to vote for a socially liberal party with economic views I disagree with or a party with social views I disagree with.

kat.mac

I'm so upset at the moment.

All I want is my autonomy. It's *mine*. But it feels like it's slipping through my fingers.

sunshine and showers

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

If a TD doesn't have a choice then a vote is worthless.

Lucinda wasn't elected by a referendum, she was elected by the people of DSE. Say what you like about her but I don't think she's been hiding her views on this. People elected her as their representative based on what her views are, and now she's expressing them. That's what representative democracy is.

You see, normally I would agree with you, voting against this legislation is not just voting against the results of 2 referendums, it's voting against a Constitutional right.

This is a misconception that is really starting to annoy me.

Article 40.3.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann:

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

So the Supreme Court interpreted that to allow suicide to be a factor in giving regard to the equal right to the life of the mother. Therefore that is the law in Ireland, whether it is written in an Act of the Oireachtas or not.

The referendums tried to change the constitution and explicitly rule suicide out as a reason for an abortion. They failed.

To cut a long story short: being granted an abortion on the grounds that your pregnancy is making you suicidal is a constitutional right of every Irish women.

TDs who vote against this legislation because of the suicide part are ignoring the constitution. And no politician has the right to do that.

kat.mac

sunshine and showers wrote: »

To cut a long story short: being granted an abortion on the grounds that your pregnancy is making you suicidal is a constitutional right of every Irish women.

TDs who vote against this legislation because of the suicide part are ignoring the constitution. And no politician has the right to do that.

So well said.

clairefontaine

sunshine and showers wrote: »

You see, normally I would agree with you, voting against this legislation is not just voting against the results of 2 referendums, it's voting against a Constitutional right.

This is a misconception that is really starting to annoy me.

Article 40.3.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann:


So the Supreme Court interpreted that to allow suicide to be a factor in giving regard to the equal right to the life of the mother. Therefore that is the law in Ireland, whether it is written in an Act of the Oireachtas or not.

The referendums tried to change the constitution and explicitly rule suicide out as a reason for an abortion. They failed.

To cut a long story short: being granted an abortion on the grounds that your pregnancy is making you suicidal is a constitutional right of every Irish women.

TDs who vote against this legislation because of the suicide part are ignoring the constitution. And no politician has the right to do that.

Do you not see the trickery behind what you have bolded?

Do you not see you basically give up your rights NOT to be sectioned and also have to come out and claim mental health instability.... At least in a criminal charge you would get a jury. Here you get the decision of the HSE and the psychs. No judge, no jury. The government will decide.

Eh no that is not a right....that is a trade off. That is a walk into your own prison.

I would absolutely vote no on this legislation if I were a TD.

meeeeh

sunshine and showers wrote: »

You see, normally I would agree with you, voting against this legislation is not just voting against the results of 2 referendums, it's voting against a Constitutional right.

This is a misconception that is really starting to annoy me.

Article 40.3.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann:


So the Supreme Court interpreted that to allow suicide to be a factor in giving regard to the equal right to the life of the mother. Therefore that is the law in Ireland, whether it is written in an Act of the Oireachtas or not.

The referendums tried to change the constitution and explicitly rule suicide out as a reason for an abortion. They failed.

To cut a long story short: being granted an abortion on the grounds that your pregnancy is making you suicidal is a constitutional right of every Irish women.

TDs who vote against this legislation because of the suicide part are ignoring the constitution. And no politician has the right to do that.

S

sunshine and showers

clairefontaine wrote: »

Do you not see the trickery behind what you have bolded?

Do you not see you basically give up your rights NOT to be sectioned and also have to come out and claim mental health instability.... At least in a criminal charge you would get a jury. Here you get the decision of the HSE and the psychs. No judge, no jury. The government will decide.

Eh no that is not a right....that is a trade off. That is a walk into your own prison.

I would absolutely vote no on this legislation if I were a TD.

I am talking about those who object to the legislation because it allows for an abortion because of the risk of suicide as a concept. Those who believe that suicide is not a reason to allow a woman to have an abortion. What I am saying is that it does not matter if they "morally" feel that women who are suicidal cannot have an abortion. Such women have a constitutional right.

I do not agree with many aspects of this bill, but I also do not agree with the ignorance being shown by many of our TDs and Senators.

Don't even get me started on the wording of the bill with regards to sectioning, deciding if people are "suicidal enough" and the sentencing for taking abortion pills. Those are disgusting.