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Comments

  • #3752
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    Far from a victim.

    I'm standing up to beligerant and lazy attacks from the usual suspects.

    There is no attack . . Just a straight forward call for simple reform and a value for money approach within our public sector . .
    Dreamertime wrote: »
    As a union rep I've seen little or no cases of underperformance, highlighted by Personnel.

    My experience of Civil Servants is of a dedicated workforce who are being put to the pin of their collar under deeminishing resources, while workload is increasing.

    However there are progressive policies in dealing with staff/work issues. Whereby the employee is offered an opportunity to communicate his issues and a plan is drawn up in conjunction with local management whereby the problems at hand can be dealt with in a team atmosphere. where the employee is treated humanely and on all occassions the problem is alleviated.

    Not sure how long you have been in the PS but i find that statement absolutely incredible. Even the best run companies will have about 5% underperformance. I would suggest that underperformance is not highlighted because it is not properly measured and it is not measured because the unions will not allow it.


  • #3753
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Oh well thats fine, and as someone who's worked most of my life in the private sector I feel confident in pointing to the same culture in the private sector.

    You are missing the point entirely. . It doesn't matter whether or not such a culture exists within the private sector because guess what, its private. . . If a private sector company allows such a culture to settle in then their owners or shareholders will pay for it. In the Public Sector we are the owners and as such we are entitled to ask for value for money . .


  • #3754
    malibu4u
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭malibu4u


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    You are missing the point entirely. . It doesn't matter whether or not such a culture exists within the private sector because guess what, its private. . . If a private sector company allows such a culture to settle in then their owners or shareholders will pay for it. In the Public Sector we are the owners and as such we are entitled to ask for value for money . .
    Its crazy the private sector are paying the public sector with pay, security and pensions that the vast bulk of the private sector can only dream of.


  • #3755
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    BTW take a look at the average semi state wages and its easy to see how they would skew the results for the overall public service. Remember that the semi states haven't had the paycut or the pension levy and they won't get the new paycut either. Nobody wants to talk about that though for some reason.

    From the Irish Times:

    ESB: average pay - €75,500
    Bord Gáis average pay - €67,300
    Bord na Móna average pay - €44,800
    Eirgrid average pay - €83,400
    DAA average pay - €49,300
    IAA average pay - €95,600
    Dublin Port average pay - €67,900
    CIE average pay - €49,100
    An Post average pay - €59,700
    RTE average pay - €59,700
    Coillte average pay - €45,600

    From that the average semi state would be around €63,500. That is significantly higher that the public service.


  • #3756
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    It is mentioned here: http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2011/11/this-is-old-ground-but-somehow-we-keep.html

    From the link:
    'It is also important to note that the average of €901.07 provided by the CSO is based on around 400,000 public sector workers. This is because it includes just over 50,000 employees in semi-state companies. I have asked the CSO to provide a breakdown of average wages in the public sector under the same headings used in Table A2 in the Earnings and Labour Costs release. I have been told that this figure is not available. The €901.07 average is likely higher because of pay in the semi-states. '


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  • #3757
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    ts crazy the private sector are paying the public sector with pay, security and pensions

    There're not paying, actually. If the private sector did its bit there wouldn't be a problem.


  • #3758
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    You are missing the point entirely. . It doesn't matter whether or not such a culture exists within the private sector because guess what, its private. . . If a private sector company allows such a culture to settle in then their owners or shareholders will pay for it. In the Public Sector we are the owners and as such we are entitled to ask for value for money . .

    Umm no, I think it's you who's missing the point - I challenged you over an assertion you made about an entitlement culture endemic to the Irish PS worker. I'm suggesting Irish PS workers are not noticeably more "entitled" than their equivalents in any unionised parts of the private sector. Now if you concede that this is the case, it leaves you in the position of saying a cultural trait of Irish workers generally is only unacceptable in the public sector.

    There's plenty of people in the PS who voted yes to CP2, and plenty more who voted no because the type of measures tabled didn't constitute proper reform in their view, but just another hatchet job. (I voted yes by the way, but if I was voting again now I'd probably vote no rather than endorse lazy broad stroke measures).


  • #3759
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There're not paying, actually. If the private sector did its bit there wouldn't be a problem.

    You think we should go back to an unsustainable housing bubble to fund private sector and public sector wages then?


  • #3760
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There're not paying, actually. If the private sector did its bit there wouldn't be a problem.

    Do you mean that private sector should continue property bubble in order to subsidize overpaid public sector? Public got nothing from benchmarkings except extra votes for off, no reason to continue pay fianna fail legacy


  • #3761
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Do you mean that private sector should continue property bubble in order to subsidize overpaid public sector?

    No. If the private sector would engage in sustainable economic activity, instead of get rich quick schemes and property bubles then we wouldn't have a problem. If the private sector currently hired one third of the unemployed and put them to some productive purpose, the problem would be manageable.


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  • #3762
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I would suggest that underperformance is not highlighted because it is not properly measured and it is not measured because the unions will not allow it.

    However there are progressive policies in dealing with staff/work issues. Whereby the employee is offered an opportunity to communicate his issues and a plan is drawn up in conjunction with local management whereby the problems at hand can be dealt with in a team atmosphere. where the employee is treated humanely and on all occassions the problem is alleviated.


  • #3763
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    ardmacha wrote: »
    No. If the private sector would engage in sustainable economic activity, instead of get rich quick schemes and property bubles then we wouldn't have a problem. If the private sector currently hired one third of the unemployed and put them to some productive purpose, the problem would be manageable.

    Sweet Jesus....I don't know where to begin with this one...

    All those unemployed people were already let go by companies in the private sector....

    What, might I ask, would you consider to be a sustainable economic activity?


  • #3764
    Flex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭Flex


    ardmacha wrote: »
    No. If the private sector would engage in sustainable economic activity, instead of get rich quick schemes and property bubles then we wouldn't have a problem. If the private sector currently hired one third of the unemployed and put them to some productive purpose, the problem would be manageable.

    How many people do you employ?


  • #3765
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    ardmacha wrote: »
    No. If the private sector would engage in sustainable economic activity, instead of get rich quick schemes and property bubles then we wouldn't have a problem. If the private sector currently hired one third of the unemployed and put them to some productive purpose, the problem would be manageable.
    i.e. private sector must work hard to prevent public sector from working hard
    You wont get another private sector, so let adjust public sector to existing one


  • #3766
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Umm no, I think it's you who's missing the point - I challenged you over an assertion you made about an entitlement culture endemic to the Irish PS worker. I'm suggesting Irish PS workers are not noticeably more "entitled" than their equivalents in any unionised parts of the private sector. Now if you concede that this is the case, it leaves you in the position of saying a cultural trait of Irish workers generally is only unacceptable in the public sector.

    There's plenty of people in the PS who voted yes to CP2, and plenty more who voted no because the type of measures tabled didn't constitute proper reform in their view, but just another hatchet job. (I voted yes by the way, but if I was voting again now I'd probably vote no rather than endorse lazy broad stroke measures).

    Thats a fairly significant new qualification to your earlier comment . . and in this case i would probably agree with you . . i can understand the role of unions in protecting workers rights in the 70s / 80s but workers have so many legal rights nowadays (rightly so) it seems that the role of the unions is more about defending (and thereby encouraging) poor performance..
    Dreamertime wrote: »
    However there are progressive policies in dealing with staff/work issues. Whereby the employee is offered an opportunity to communicate his issues and a plan is drawn up in conjunction with local management whereby the problems at hand can be dealt with in a team atmosphere. where the employee is treated humanely and on all occassions the problem is alleviated.

    Given that you already stated that you havent seen any poor performance I presume you are describing how the procedure says it will work should it ever happen ??

    BTW, there is nothing inhumane in dealing with poor performance !!

    It also seems to me that when you raise the issue of performance management with individuals from the PS the immediate reaction is always a negative one and always focused on firing people for not performing. Performance management works both ways . . i would be delighted to see a bonus structure in place to encourage strong performance in the PS.


  • #3767
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    i.e. private sector must work hard to prevent public sector from working hard

    No. This is a usual distortion.
    Both sectors need to perform effectively.


  • #3768
    vinylbomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭vinylbomb


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There're not paying, actually. If the private sector did its bit there wouldn't be a problem.

    To turn this around - if PS wages were at a level commensurate to where the private sector is NOW, and werent bloated through benchmarking during previous bubbles, then there wouldnt be a problem.


  • #3769
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    To turn this around - if PS wages were at a level commensurate to where the private sector is NOW, and werent bloated through benchmarking during previous bubbles, then there wouldnt be a problem.

    During the "boom" PS wages rose at about the same pace as the private sector. In recent years PS wages have fallen, in aggregate, while the private sector has not.

    The problem is not the PS it is the failure of much of the private sector and the consequent increase in welfare.


  • #3770
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    i would be delighted to see a bonus structure in place to encourage strong performance in the PS.


    There is. The merit award scheme. Which has been frozen.


  • #3771
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    ardmacha wrote: »
    During the "boom" PS wages rose at about the same pace as the private sector. In recent years PS wages have fallen, in aggregate, while the private sector has not.

    The problem is not the PS it is the failure of much of the private sector and the consequent increase in welfare.
    Wages in private sector rose mostly from increased productivity(see GDP growth), while in public sector it was no any logical reason for benchmarking (apart from providing FF more votes)


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  • #3772
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    To turn this around - if PS wages were at a level commensurate to where the private sector is NOW, and werent bloated through benchmarking during previous bubbles, then there wouldnt be a problem.

    Benchmarking has been wiped out by the paycuts and i believe there is basically nothing between public and private now overall.


  • #3773
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Wages in private sector rose mostly from increased productivity(see GDP growth),

    Has the productivity of driving school teachers increased faster than driving testers? Both have had increases.
    Has the productivity of barristers increased faster than judges? Both have had increases.

    Did biotechnology lecturers or computer science professors not contribute to this productivity? Should they enjoy less of an increase than those who graduate from their courses?


  • #3774
    skafish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 392 ✭✭skafish


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    To turn this around - if PS wages were at a level commensurate to where the private sector is NOW, and werent bloated through benchmarking during previous bubbles, then there wouldnt be a problem.


    YET AGAIN: the average increase from benchmarking was 9.3%; Pay cuts over the last couple of years average 14%.

    To be honest, I honestly think we, the PS would be better off if the whole benchmarking had not happened, and the cuts reflected the differencr


  • #3775
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,865 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    ardmacha wrote: »
    During the "boom" PS wages rose at about the same pace as the private sector.

    That wasn't the case in the late 90s/early 2000s when public sector workers were tied into agreements paying 1.5% a year when the official inflation figure was 2 or 3 times that (and most people who were renting were experiencing a rise in their cost of living well above that.)
    The fabled 'benchmarking' was really only ever a delayed cost of living increase, a catch-up after years of industrial peace and severe wage restraint. It's long been reversed of course, but to this day it's still used as a stick to beat the public sector with.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #3776
    Mr. teddywinkles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    ardmacha wrote: »
    During the "boom" PS wages rose at about the same pace as the private sector. In recent years PS wages have fallen, in aggregate, while the private sector has not.

    The problem is not the PS it is the failure of much of the private sector and the consequent increase in welfare.

    Most ridiculous statement :rolleyes: By the way does any one in the PS work for below min wage. Big business makes the profits in the private sector and an average worker would be lucky in most cases to get an increase in wages as a result of a companies performance.
    How come in this country we have had year after year of improved performance in the export market without much increase in employment. Companies are there to make a profit, Not provide employment and wage increases to it workers.


  • #3777
    Mr. teddywinkles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    ardmacha wrote: »
    No. If the private sector would engage in sustainable economic activity, instead of get rich quick schemes and property bubles then we wouldn't have a problem. If the private sector currently hired one third of the unemployed and put them to some productive purpose, the problem would be manageable.

    You also forget that Public Services has to be sustainable too :)
    And again read my post above to clarify why companies just don't employ people for the sake of it


  • #3778
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Serious trolling going on in this thread by public sector workers. Reading their posts highlights what is wrong with this country. Trade unions are as much to blame as politicians and banks for the problems this country has.


  • #3779
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    garhjw wrote: »
    Serious trolling going on in this thread by public sector workers. Reading their posts highlights what is wrong with this country. Trade unions are as much to blame as politicians and banks for the problems this country has.

    There are people from both sectors arguing amongst themselves on this thread - some of the most frequent posters arguing against CP2 aren't PS workers. So don't be trying to paint it like you speak for the entire private sector, just like Dreamertime doesn't speak for the entire PS.

    And just because someone has a very different opinion to you doesn't mean they're trolling.


  • #3780
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    barneystinson wrote: »
    There are people from both sectors arguing amongst themselves on this thread - some of the most frequent posters arguing against CP2 aren't PS workers. So don't be trying to paint it like you speak for the entire private sector, just like Dreamertime doesn't speak for the entire PS.

    And just because someone has a very different opinion to you doesn't mean they're trolling.

    I'm entitled to voice my opinion. If you don't like that there are plenty of other threads you can read


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  • #3781
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    garhjw wrote: »
    I'm entitled to voice my opinion. If you don't like that there are plenty of other threads you can read

    Where did I say you're not?! What you're not allowed do, if you read the forum charter, is bandy around accusations of trolling. And I'm entitled to my opinion that you're an angry, ranting man; you arrived in to this thread a few thousand posts in, ranting about parasitic trade unions, public sector trolls etc... Have you contributed anything On-Topic since you started posting on this thread, or have you even read the OP??


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