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Comments

  • #3722
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    Flogging of Public servants on O'Connell Bridge sound good to you? :D

    That response is typical of you - sidestep the issue with a smartarse reply, it's like being in a secondary school classroom... :rolleyes:

    Do you accept that there are serious problems with performance management (specifically how underperformance is dealt with), in the PS, or not?


  • #3723
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    The parasitic trade unions and most of their are the problem. Reading this thread highlights what is wrong with this country.


  • #3724
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Bumski wrote: »
    And that's why the public service numbers are significantly higher there and that's reflected in the data I posted. However I was replying to H.jordan and his unsubstantiated claim that Ireland's PS issignificantly overstaffed and the data indicates that that is the claim lacks basis as Ireland is in the median in this regard. (and that was a few years ago before reuctions in numbers)

    How can you sat the PS is not overstuffed when huge numbers work 32 hour weeks? That is 1 day less than a normal working week. 20%!! Get real


  • #3725
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    garhjw wrote: »
    How can you sat the PS is not overstuffed when huge numbers work 32 hour weeks? That is 1 day less than a normal working week. 20%!! Get real

    How many work a 32-hour week, out of curiosity?

    How do you work out 40 hours as the normal working week?


  • #3726
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    I don't know how many but 1 person on 32 hours is too many. 39 hours is a normal week for workers in the private sector, why not the PS?


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  • #3727
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    garhjw wrote: »
    I don't know how many but 1 person on 32 hours is too many. 39 hours is a normal week for workers in the private sector, why not the PS?

    How do you arrive at 39 hours?

    What industry/industries are you basing it on?

    For example, in the PS I work 34hrs 45mins a week.
    In my previous 2 jobs in the private sector I worked 37hours and 37.5hours.
    I earn less in the PS than I did in the private sector, but I did a trade-off when I moved jobs, of money for conditions.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd have no problem with a 37-hour week, it's just you're coming across as a bit of a ranter...


  • #3728
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    Flogging of Public servants on O'Connell Bridge sound good to you? :D

    What a ridiculous response. Unfortunately typical of the response you get from the public sector and from their trade union representation whenever you try to have a reasoned debate about what true public sector reform might look like.

    Your commentary throughout this thread has served nothing but to highlight the culture of entitlement that is endemic within the public sector.


  • #3729
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    I'm not ranting but if everyone in the PS worked 39 hour weeks, less people would be required to do the same amount of work. Head count could be reduced and then there wouldn't have to be such large reductions in salary.

    Nothing wrong with a rant anyway


  • #3730
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    garhjw wrote: »
    I don't know how many but 1 person on 32 hours is too many. 39 hours is a normal week for workers in the private sector, why not the PS?

    Why do we care how many hours they work ? As long as their salary reflects the hours they put in (it doesn't ) and there are sufficient mechanisms in place to make sure that those hours are at an acceptable level of performance and productivity (there aren't !) I don't particularly care how many hours people have to work.


  • #3731
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    What a ridiculous response. Unfortunately typical of the response you get from the public sector and from their trade union representation whenever you try to have a reasoned debate about what true public sector reform might look like.

    Your commentary throughout this thread has served nothing but to highlight the culture of entitlement that is endemic within the public sector.

    Whoa now, back up the bus there buddy; first off he speaks for no-one but himself.

    Now, lets hear about this culture of entitlement that's endemic in the public sector - I could say the same about the private sector, so to be relevant you'd have to demonstrate that there's a greater sense of entitlement on the part of a greater proportion of PS workers, for classes of workers in comparable jobs.

    You may well be right of course - I'm just intrigued to see what the various empirical studies your assertion is based on have shown.


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  • #3732
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,743 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    And to reiterate what another poster said, in the private sector there are plenty of examples of untouchable employees. Like was said with the boss's rugby and golf club, I used to work in a place where, if you played 5 a side every week with the lads, you were a golden boy who could basically screw up as much as you like, fob off work to the non-football playing staff and get away with it, lose your temper and it was shrugged off and basically be a pr!ck and the bosses would do nothing coz you were a good forward :mad: This is prevelant in a lot of private sector jobs.

    I have had countless experiences where local Gods, sorry, GAA players are handed jobs in banks and spend 90% of the time discussing matches with the staff and boss while the rest of the workers have to clean up after them and nothing is ever said to them or they are never disciplined. Thats a real scourge of private sector jobs, the management's treatment of sports playing workers...


  • #3733
    sharper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    And to reiterate what another poster said, in the private sector there are plenty of examples of untouchable employees.

    Is it unheard of? No of course not, people are people wherever they work.

    The thing is though in the private sector people can spend their money as they wish because it's their money - they can hire unproductive people if they want to. Eventually they run out of money and the business goes bust or gets out-competed by a better or more efficient organisation.

    In the public sector there's no safeguard whatsoever to prevent a critical mass of unproductive employees forming. The government doesn't go bust, it just borrows more or taxes more to cover the inefficiency.

    Take the argument about teaching hours for example where teachers often retort they have to do a lot of preparation work outside of those in order to be effective. That's fine if the teacher is actually interested in doing a good job and engaged in their student's learning but what about the teacher that isn't? We all went through the school system and know there's more than a few teachers that are completely unprepared and/or just teach the same stuff year after year so they don't have to do any more preparation.

    There's no mechanism to either weed out unproductive employees or (more importantly in my view) reward productive employees.

    I'd be very happy for public sector workers to get a pay rise. There are many that are doing the work of 3 or 4 of their colleagues in order to keep things going and those are the ones that deserve it, not the ones that just show up.

    However the unions consistently protect the unproductive. When pay rises come they want to give them to everyone regardless of merit and when the cuts come (if they can't instead be thrust onto the taxpayer) they want to give them to everyone as well regardless of merit.

    Eventually you end up in a situation where someone working a 40 hour week that's seen many of their colleagues lose their job, has taken a pay cut from their employer, seen the value of their defined contribution pension fall due to market losses and the government raiding it plus all the other tax increases being asked to contribute yet more to protect people that work a full day less than them per week, have an outstanding pension that can't be bought anywhere, enjoy a pay premium along with absolute job security and whom at the end of the day we have no idea if they do any productive work whatsoever.

    That simply can't continue regardless of what the public sector feels it's entitled to. The money isn't there to pay for it.


  • #3734
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Whoa now, back up the bus there buddy; first off he speaks for no-one but himself.

    Now, lets hear about this culture of entitlement that's endemic in the public sector - I could say the same about the private sector, so to be relevant you'd have to demonstrate that there's a greater sense of entitlement on the part of a greater proportion of PS workers, for classes of workers in comparable jobs.

    You may well be right of course - I'm just intrigued to see what the various empirical studies your assertion is based on have shown.

    I could start with the results of this weeks vote. With the refusal to accept cuts in the range of 4% despite the fact that there is published evidence demonstrating a bigger gap. Or the refusal to allow compulsory redundancies be on the table for discussion. The refusal to allow any discussion on proper performance management. The constant rhetoric (much like that which has come from Dreamertime) that comes from the union leaders that represent and negotiate on behalf of the PS. Also have plenty of personal examples of dealing with the inefficiency of the PS.

    I may not have any empirical studies but I feel reasonably confident in pointing to a culture of entitlement in the PS.


  • #3735
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    barneystinson wrote: »
    That response is typical of you - sidestep the issue with a smartarse reply, it's like being in a secondary school classroom... :rolleyes:

    Do you accept that there are serious problems with performance management (specifically how underperformance is dealt with), in the PS, or not?
    Why does he/she need to accept that? they can just hide behind the unions obstruction of performance review and performance related pay. And then pretend that he/she knows nothing about union blocking reform for years, like a few pages back. We will never learn anything if we aren't honest and open with each other.


  • #3736
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    barneystinson wrote: »
    That response is typical of you - sidestep the issue with a smartarse reply, it's like being in a secondary school classroom... :rolleyes:

    Do you accept that there are serious problems with performance management (specifically how underperformance is dealt with), in the PS, or not?

    All organisationd have issues with PMDS.

    The humane way of dealing with it in the CS is a great way of dealing with it in my view.

    I can only coment on the Civil Service.


  • #3737
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    garhjw wrote: »
    The parasitic trade unions and most of their are the problem. Reading this thread highlights what is wrong with this country.

    As a proud CPSU member I resent such disrespectful and beligerent remarks...


  • #3738
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    What a ridiculous response. Unfortunately typical of the response you get from the public sector and from their trade union representation whenever you try to have a reasoned debate about what true public sector reform might look like.

    Your commentary throughout this thread has served nothing but to highlight the culture of entitlement that is endemic within the public sector.

    I'm entitled to resist the race to the bottom zealotry we always get from PS bashers.

    I'd not have in any otherway.


  • #3739
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    All organisationd have issues with PMDS.

    The humane way of dealing with it in the CS is a great way of dealing with it in my view.

    I can only coment on the Civil Service.

    How is it "dealt with" ? (Specifically underperformance )


  • #3740
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    I'm entitled to resist the race to the bottom zealotry we always get from PS bashers.

    I'd not have in any otherway.

    . . and to paint yourself as a victim. Another tried and tested union strategy !


  • #3741
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    As a proud CPSU member I resent such disrespectful and beligerent remarks...

    I suggest you raise this with your union representative.


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  • #3742
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    How is it "dealt with" ? (Specifically underperformance )


    As a union rep I've seen little or no cases of underperformance, highlighted by Personnel.

    My experience of Civil Servants is of a dedicated workforce who are being put to the pin of their collar under deeminishing resources, while workload is increasing.

    However there are progressive policies in dealing with staff/work issues. Whereby the employee is offered an opportunity to communicate his issues and a plan is drawn up in conjunction with local management whereby the problems at hand can be dealt with in a team atmosphere. where the employee is treated humanely and on all occassions the problem is alleviated.


  • #3743
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    . . and to paint yourself as a victim. Another tried and tested union strategy !

    Far from a victim.

    I'm standing up to beligerant and lazy attacks from the usual suspects.


  • #3744
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    garhjw wrote: »
    I suggest you raise this with your union representative.


    No need to when I've fobed it off right here and now :)


  • #3745
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I could start with the results of this weeks vote. With the refusal to accept cuts in the range of 4% despite the fact that there is published evidence demonstrating a bigger gap. Or the refusal to allow compulsory redundancies be on the table for discussion. The refusal to allow any discussion on proper performance management. The constant rhetoric (much like that which has come from Dreamertime) that comes from the union leaders that represent and negotiate on behalf of the PS. Also have plenty of personal examples of dealing with the inefficiency of the PS.

    I may not have any empirical studies but I feel reasonably confident in pointing to a culture of entitlement in the PS.

    Oh well thats fine, and as someone who's worked most of my life in the private sector I feel confident in pointing to the same culture in the private sector.


  • #3746
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    garhjw wrote: »
    How can you sat the PS is not overstuffed when huge numbers work 32 hour weeks? That is 1 day less than a normal working week. 20%!! Get real

    Hugh numbers eh? i don't know anybody working a 32 hour week unless they are young mothers who only get paid for the 32 hours.


  • #3747
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    hallelujajordan wrote: »
    I could start with the results of this weeks vote. With the refusal to accept cuts in the range of 4% despite the fact that there is published evidence demonstrating a bigger gap. .


    The truly untouched and untouchable semi states skew the numbers. I haven't seen any report that sub divides public, private and semi states properly so until i do i don't accept the comparisons.


  • #3748
    artful_codger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,449 ✭✭✭artful_codger


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    I'm entitled to resist the race to the bottom zealotry we always get from PS bashers.

    I'd not have in any otherway.

    The public sector in Ireland have been only too happy to have a race to the bottom when it comes to productivity, value for money, accountability, transparency and resisting reform.


  • #3749
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    I'm entitled to resist the race to the bottom zealotry we always get from PS bashers.

    Great point and i'm with you on that one. Just because some poor exploited sap gets paid pennies to work a job in some corner of the private sector doesn't mean we should all agree join them.

    After the paycut and pension levy i believe i am paid pretty close (either way) to what someone in the private sector is paid. I work 9 to 5 which is an internationally recognised typical days work. Why should i do more?


  • #3750
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    artful_codger wrote: »
    The public sector in Ireland have been only too happy to have a race to the bottom when it comes to productivity, value for money, accountability, transparency and resisting reform.
    Lazy, predictable anti-PS propaganda.


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  • #3751
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,590 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    artful_codger wrote: »
    The public sector in Ireland have been only too happy to have a race to the bottom when it comes to productivity, value for money, accountability, transparency and resisting reform.

    And this is coming from the "artful codger book of economics" ?
    or is there some source that you can quote ?


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