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The sex myth

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    #302
    EddieJohnsonJR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4 ✭EddieJohnsonJR


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    As for the "minority of men" that are "getting all the girls", that's a myth borne of your own insecurity, I wouldn't be cruel enough to suggest you were deluded.

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
    "As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium."


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    #303
    EddieJohnsonJR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4 ✭EddieJohnsonJR


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Can you explain the 'powerless feeling' part?

    What is it and why does your hypothetical man have it?

    How about the fact that men today are being emasculated and marginalized in society for one? Every facet of our culture caters to women, leaving men without a place in it, hence the 'powerless feeling', along with the 4-5X suicide rate relative to women.


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    #304
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    This one?





    Yeah, that's a myth too btw, seeing as there are more pensioners rediscovering their sexuality in the last ten years than ever before-

    http://www.healthcareglobal.com/global_hospitals/number-of-pensioners-with-stis-doubles-in-10-years


    As for the "minority of men" that are "getting all the girls", that's a myth borne of your own insecurity, I wouldn't be cruel enough to suggest you were deluded.

    It was my later post I was referring to, but seeing as you brought it up I'll respond. I'm aware most people can get sex unless they look like Quasimodo, but in my experience. some men do indeed get a lot of girls while others go months and even years celibate. Women often like men other women like, so it's not really breaking news. This post didn't have anything to do with my later ones though. I only read through a bit of the thread after I made that post.


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    #305
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    there was NO SEX at all when I was young, now I'm old history repeats itself... if I come back in another life, i'm hoping to come back, front, sideways...everywhich way....


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    #306
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Can you explain the 'powerless feeling' part?

    What is it and why does your hypothetical man have it?

    I'll let Norah Vincent explain it. This is from the book Self-made Man: My Year Disguised as a Man. Another poster here posted this a while back.

    Sex is most powerful in the mind, and to men, in the mind, women have a lot of power, not only to arouse, but to give worth, self-worth, meaning, initiation, sustenance, everything. Seeing this more clearly through my experience, I began to wonder whether the most extreme men resort to violence with women because they think that's all they have, their one pathetic advantage over all she seems to hold above them. I make no excuses for this. There are none. But as a man I felt vaguely attuned to this mind-set or its possibility. I did not inhabit it, but I thought I saw how rejection might get twisted beyond recognition in the mind of a discarded male where misogyny and ultimately rape may be a vicious attempt to take what cannot be taken because it has not been bestowed.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/mar/18/gender.bookextracts


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    #307
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    EddieJohnsonJR wrote: »
    How about the fact that men today are being emasculated and marginalized in society for one? Every facet of our culture caters to women, leaving men without a place in it, hence the 'powerless feeling',
    Really? Can you give examples?

    EddieJohnsonJR wrote: »
    along with the 4-5X suicide rate relative to women.
    A lot of people would argue that male suicide rates are higher due to the fact that men were traditionally expected to 'grin and bear it', avoid discussing their feelings and that expressing emotions was effeminate. 'Man up' is frequently used if a male shows vulnerability.


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    #308
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Pug160 wrote: »
    Well, for example, a deluded and irrational man might think all women really want to be raped deep down (because of what he has read), and coupled with a powerless feeling it could be a recipe for disaster. Now obviously, 99.9 percent of men would never think this way, but I'm just trying to get inside the minds of these people.


    You're off to a bad start if you're trying to rationalise their behaviour using phrases like "a powerless feeling" to try and understand the mindset of a rapist.

    They come from all walks of life and from every sort of background. There is no one single pathology of a rapist.


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    #309
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Really? Can you give examples?



    A lot of people would argue that male suicide rates are higher due to the fact that men were traditionally expected to 'grin and bear it', avoid discussing their feelings and that expressing emotions was effeminate. 'Man up' is frequently used if a male shows vulnerability.


    Apparently male and female suicide attempts are fairly close to each other. Men seem to favour more violent methods and in turn are more successful in their attempts.


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    #310
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You're off to a bad start if you're trying to rationalise their behaviour using phrases like "a powerless feeling" to try and understand the mindset of a rapist.

    They come from all walks of life and from every sort of background. There is no one single pathology of a rapist.

    The ''powerless'' feeling is one plausible reason.along with many others - I didn't claim it was the only reason.


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    #311
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Apparently male and female suicide attempts are fairly close to each other. Men seem to favour more violent methods and in turn are more successful in their attempts.
    I wasn't aware of that, I was responding to another poster who said the rate was 4/5 times higher in males. Obviously the figures just include successful attempts.


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    #312
    Three Seasons
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Trudiha wrote: »
    I can't see any real point in that. All I'm seeing is a bunch of men who don't seem to have any investment in changing the status quo. It's like being in a room with a bunch of rednecks, shouting 'racism, what racism?

    The point is so we can have a rational discussion. If you throw out buzzwords with no real meaning anyone can pin down its very hard to have a reasonable discussion. So would you like to clarify what you meant by rapable?


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    #313
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    King of Kings wrote: »
    you sound like a barrel of fun .

    There is a clear difference in context. she wasn't being serious in her remarks.


    .


    That's exactly my point. She didn't see that trivialising the word rape was offensive, but when it was turned in the same context, it was only then she realised how serious it is.

    If helping a friend understand that trivialising rape is not funny, and that makes me a dryballs, I'm ok with that.


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    #314
    IM0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You're off to a bad start if you're trying to rationalise their behaviour using phrases like "a powerless feeling" to try and understand the mindset of a rapist.

    They come from all walks of life and from every sort of background. There is no one single pathology of a rapist    .

    they have that in common with suicide bombers then


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    #315
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Apparently male and female suicide attempts are fairly close to each other. Men seem to favour more violent methods and in turn are more successful in their attempts.

    Most women seem to do it for a cry for help, where as men are more likely to be intent on carrying it out. It would be misleading to call them all suicide attempts.


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    #316
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Pug160 wrote: »
    Most women seem to do it for a cry for help, where as men are more likely to be intent on carrying it out. It would be misleading to call them all suicide attempts.

    Your opinion is not fact... Please just stop!


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    #317
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Pug160 wrote: »
    Most women seem to do it for a cry for help, where as men are more likely to be intent on carrying it out. It would be misleading to call them all suicide attempts.

    Would that be your professional/researched opinion or are you just guessing?


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    #318
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    That's exactly my point. She didn't see that trivialising the word rape was offensive, but when it was turned in the same context, it was only then she realised how serious it is.
    I don't understand why some people find some words offensive. They're just words.

    The word rape isn't offensive, the act of committing rape is.


    We all use inappropriate language in a non-offensive manner - Americans, for instance, are horrified when they hear us telling someone to f*uck off, to us it can simply be a way of saying 'that's unbelievable!'.


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    #319
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Pug160 wrote: »
    Most women seem to do it for a cry for help, where as men are more likely to be intent on carrying it out. It would be misleading to call them all suicide attempts.

    WOW, how are you coming to that conclusion?


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    #320
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Pug160 wrote: »
    Most women seem to do it for a cry for help, where as men are more likely to be intent on carrying it out. It would be misleading to call them all suicide attempts.
    That's the equivalent of saying that women are better at faking suicide, or that men don't have the intelligence not to actually themselves.

    You are insulting both genders and reducing suicide to merely a pathetic attempt to attract attention.


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    #321
    Pug160
    Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Pug160


    smash wrote: »
    Your opinion is not fact... Please just stop!
    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Would that be your professional/researched opinion or are you just guessing?
    Odysseus wrote: »
    WOW, how are you coming to that conclusion?
    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    That's the equivalent of saying that women are better at faking suicide, or that men don't have the intelligence not to actually themselves.

    You are insulting both genders and reducing suicide to merely a pathetic attempt to attract attention.

    The successful methods men use to commit suicide are open to women, so it has to be assumed that women are more likely to do it as a cry for help, as the methods they choose are less likely to result in death. I don't see why people are giving me a hard time for saying this.


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    #322
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Really? Can you give examples?



    A lot of people would argue that male suicide rates are higher due to the fact that men were traditionally expected to 'grin and bear it', avoid discussing their feelings and that expressing emotions was effeminate. 'Man up' is frequently used if a male shows vulnerability.

    You've just given one example. Men are often told to 'Man up' in a lot of different situations, not just suicide. They can sometimes feel they're not allowed to complain when something goes wrong - just grin and bear it.


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    #323
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Pug160 wrote: »
    The successful methods men use to commit suicide are open to women, so it has to be assumed that women are more likely to do it as a cry for help, as the methods they choose are less likely to result in death. I don't see why people are giving me a hard time for saying this.
    Because you're wrong!


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    #324
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    You've just given one example. Men are often told to 'Man up' in a lot of different situations, not just suicide. They can sometimes feel they're not allowed to complain when something goes wrong - just grin and bear it.
    It's usually men who say it to other men.

    The poster I quoted spoke of men being marginalised - I wasn't arguing, I'm just not aware of it. It wasn't mentioned to explain suicide, it was in reference to why some men rape.


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    #325
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    Pug160 wrote: »
    The successful methods men use to commit suicide are open to women, so it has to be assumed that women are more likely to do it as a cry for help, as the methods they choose are less likely to result in death. I don't see why people are giving me a hard time for saying this.

    How many of both genders attempted suicide last year, and how many of both genders actually completed it? What were the difference between between the two genders in both groupings.

    I have worked with both genders in relation to self-harm and it is not valid to say that one gender is serious and the other are engaging in a cry for help.


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    #326
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    It's usually men who say it to other men.

    The poster I quoted spoke of men being marginalised - I wasn't arguing, I'm just not aware of it. It wasn't mentioned to explain suicide, it was in reference to why some men rape.

    I've heard plenty of women say it too tbh. It's often used in the same context as 'you're only bitter,' and sometimes more serious issues. But you've raised a good point about the pressure put on men to 'grin and bear it.'


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    #327
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    I've heard plenty of women say it too tbh. It's often used in the same context as 'you're only bitter,' and sometimes more serious issues. But you've raised a good point about the pressure put on men to 'grin and bear it.'
    How many people are serious about it though? It's usually a joke.

    I'm not picking holes in arguments to push a feminist agenda, I just didn't see the logic in that particular post.

    Traditionally society did put pressure on men be the strong silent types, and on women to be gentle and nurturing types - that is changing.


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    #328
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    How many people are serious about it though? It's usually a joke.

    A joke which perpetuates the culture of silence in which men are discouraged from expressing feelings whilst also being punished for not [expressing them]...
    Rable rable.


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    #329
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    How many people are serious about it though? It's usually a joke.

    I'm not picking holes in arguments to push a feminist agenda, I just didn't see the logic in that particular post.

    Traditionally society did put pressure on men be the strong silent types, and on women to be gentle and nurturing types - that is changing.

    I don't see how been told to 'man up' or 'you're only bitter' as been a joke. Yes things are changing, but not necessarily for the better. As the previous poster said, men have become emascualted and marginalised, at least more so now than before. The misandry in the media, men been denied rights to see their kids and so on. I'm not saying the women don't have any problems, but that poster had a point. You asked for some examples - there they are.


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    #330
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    kiffer wrote: »
    A joke which perpetuates the culture of silence in which men are discouraged from expressing feelings whilst also being punished for not [expressing them]...
    Rable rable.
    I have never heard it said to a man having a serious conversation about emotions or genuine concerns. In that instance the person saying would be an asshole.

    Example - A man tells a story about meeting a girl who was obviously interested in him and didn't act on it. The inevitable responses are 'man up' or 'hand back your man card'. You see that on treads here and it's usually male posters who respond like that. It's not meant as a serious attack on the man in question, it's a light-hearted response.


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    #331
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    I don't see how been told to 'man up' or 'you're only bitter' as been a joke. Yes things are changing, but not necessarily for the better. As the previous poster said, men have become emascualted and marginalised, at least more so now than before. The misandry in the media, men been denied rights to see their kids and so on. I'm not saying the women don't have any problems, but that poster had a point. You asked for some examples - there they are.
    I'm not aware of misandry in the media being any more prevalent than misogyny, laws preventing unmarried fathers having parental rights are farcical, if you look at the gay adoption thread you will see I have criticised that.

    Some of the posts on this thread suggest that men are sexual predators, I have disagreed with that.

    Both men and women face discrimination, neither are acceptable. I honestly do not know anyone who would ignore a man in distress, some might not know what to say but they wouldn't use flippant comments like 'man up'.

    Women are accused of being bitter too, I'm frequently told I'll end up a bitter, old woman because I don't want children. To me, that's amusing because it assumes a woman can only achieve fulfillment through procreating.


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