Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

OssianSmyth · 03-04-2013 11:55pm #1

In a recent document from the C&AG, I notice the estimated costs for these projects had finally been published. Up to now they had been treated like the secrets of Fatima.

Metro North: €3bn
Dart Underground: €4bn
Metro West: €1.4bn

Metro North has planning permission until 2020
Dart Underground's permission is subject to a judicial review but will get 10 years permission if it wins that case.

The next date when the government says it will review these projects is 2015 (next capital envelope). Presumably we are waiting for the next boom so that the price of materials and labour will be higher.

Ireland's 10 year cost of borrowing is now back at 4%.

€226m spent to date on these three cancelled projects. Will they ever happen?

Mahogany · 04-04-2013 3:10am

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

lucernarian · 04-04-2013 3:57am

Mahogany wrote: »

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

For a train service that's even slower than the express buses? What a waste of money. It wouldn't be so bad if such a train service was built out to Swords via the airport but I don't think the airport alone deserves even €300 million in such expenditure when it's already served by a considerable number of bus routes beside a motorway.

admiralofthefleet · 04-04-2013 12:45pm

Mahogany wrote: »

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

what about the areas of the northside that have been very neglected in favour of luas? Metro North isnt just a line to the airport, it connects with heavily populated areas as well.
scrap new luas lines and proceed with metro north i say. the construction industry could do with the boost as well im sure

connolly is at capacity as well afaik so another heavy rail line from the airport isnt feasible.

FreudianSlippers · 04-04-2013 12:54pm

They could be done at half that price if they were tendered last year. Shame really; we could have had NM and DU for the price of one had out government had any foresight.

donvito99 · 04-04-2013 5:25pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They could be done at half that price if they were tendered last year. Shame really; we could have had NM and DU for the price of one had out government had any foresight.

Or cash.

FreudianSlippers · 04-04-2013 8:49pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Or cash.

When has any government of any country ever paid for anything in "cash"?

Zebra3 · 04-04-2013 9:32pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Or cash.

There's plenty of cash.

Stop giving it to foreign banks.

Problem solved.

donvito99 · 04-04-2013 9:48pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

When has any government of any country ever paid for anything in "cash"?

Yes, it's called debt, which we have plenty of. Not to say that I'm opposed to either of these projects.

Amirani · 04-04-2013 11:32pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Yes, it's called debt, which we have plenty of. Not to say that I'm opposed to either of these projects.

Debt and cash are very different. If they weren't, there'd be no banking crisis.

Peregrine · 05-04-2013 12:19am

Guys, you know the line going underground Phoenix Park and goes through Drumcondra onwards to Connolly? Can it be used?

I've read somewhere few years ago that it could be a temporary fix before DU is built but is it feasible? I don't know too much on this topic I'm afraid.

etchyed · 05-04-2013 7:30am

OssianSmyth wrote: »

In a recent document from the C&AG...

Any chance of a link?

OssianSmyth · 05-04-2013 10:13am

etchyed wrote: »

Any chance of a link?

here it is: (PDF)
http://bit.ly/10AT0YJ

yer man! · 05-04-2013 11:38am

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Guys, you know the line going underground Phoenix Park and goes through Drumcondra onwards to Connolly? Can it be used?

I've read somewhere few years ago that it could be a temporary fix before DU is built but is it feasible? I don't know too much on this topic I'm afraid.

Not feasible due to Connolly over capacity.

Heroditas · 05-04-2013 1:56pm

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

what about the areas of the northside that have been very neglected in favour of luas? Metro North isnt just a line to the airport, it connects with heavily populated areas as well.
scrap new luas lines and proceed with metro north i say. the construction industry could do with the boost as well im sure

connolly is at capacity as well afaik so another heavy rail line from the airport isnt feasible.

I would also have thought that if they want to build a spur from Clongriffin to the airport, it would have to be done in tandem with something like DART Underground? Might it work in that situation?
Of course, that doesn't do anything for the Northside areas that would have been covered by the Metro.

strassenwo!f · 05-04-2013 2:09pm

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Dart Underground's permission is subject to a judicial review but will get 10 years permission if it wins that case.

Why the judicial review?

OssianSmyth · 05-04-2013 3:37pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Why the judicial review?

I believe it was brought by two landowners on the grounds that as the project has no funding that it should not be granted permission.

monument · 06-04-2013 10:18pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Why the judicial review?

Two parties have sought a Judicial Review of the Railway Order. Both parties argue that the Railway Order is null and void on the basis that their land is blighted and there is no funding for the project. http://www.irishrail.ie/media/2011IEAnnualReportEnglish2.pdf

......

Ireland : Planning and environment

Within Planning and environment, Mason Hayes & Curran is a second tier firm,

Respected construction lawyer Rory Kirrane heads Mason Hayes & Curran’s planning and environment practice. Susan Bryson is advising developer Flancrest Enterprises in a judicial review of planning permission to construct the Dart underground through its land. - http://www.legal500.com/firms/10395/offices/10434

TheBandicoot · 07-04-2013 5:46pm

This one?

monument · 08-04-2013 2:04am

TheBandicoot wrote: »

This one?

Strangely that was one of the main refrences to such a company when I had a quick Google of the name.

Victor · 11-04-2013 11:13pm

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Metro North: €3bn
Dart Underground: €4bn
Metro West: €1.4bn

Where does it actually say this?

OssianSmyth · 11-04-2013 11:52pm

pp.13-14 of http://bit.ly/10AT0YJ

BluntGuy · 12-04-2013 6:36am

donvito99 wrote: »

Or cash.

Eh, may be the case now, but money is not the main reason these projects are unlikely to see the light of day any time soon.

Heroditas wrote:

I would also have thought that if they want to build a spur from Clongriffin to the airport, it would have to be done in tandem with something like DART Underground? Might it work in that situation?

A 3 or 4 tracking of the northern line would be needed (and is needed anyway).

GerardKeating · 12-04-2013 7:17am

BluntGuy wrote: »

Eh, may be the case now, but money is not the main reason these projects are unlikely to see the light of day any time soon.

A 3 or 4 tracking of the northern line would be needed (and is needed anyway).

It would be nearly cheaper/easier to Build Metro North as a four track heavy rail and continue it to link with the northern line. near Rush/Lusk

BluntGuy · 12-04-2013 8:20am

GerardKeating wrote: »

It would be nearly cheaper/easier to Build Metro North as a four track heavy rail and continue it to link with the northern line. near Rush/Lusk

That would impede the Metro North being linked with the Luas green line though?

Cool Mo D · 12-04-2013 11:55am

GerardKeating wrote: »

It would be nearly cheaper/easier to Build Metro North as a four track heavy rail and continue it to link with the northern line. near Rush/Lusk

The most expensive part of tunneling is not the tunnel itself, but excavating and fitting out large underground stations. Adding bigger stations with DART-style 200m platforms to Metro-north would be very expensive.

A two-track tunnel between Clontarf road and Clongriffin might be possible though - if you move the DART depot at Clontarf road, there is plenty of space for a tunnel portal, and you can four track the Northern line free of disruption to existing services, and without the expense of rebuilding a lot of stations.

The tunnel itself would be reasonably straightforward - narrower and less ventilation required than the Port Tunnel for example, and no stations inside, so should be relatively inexpensive. Possibly cheaper than a surface 4-tracking when you take station rebuilding, property acquisition, and removing embankments into account.

Kreator1984 · 13-04-2013 7:57pm

Mahogany wrote: »

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

That would be the worst solution the government could do for people. So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

murphaph · 13-04-2013 10:15pm

Kreator1984 wrote: »

That would be the worst solution the government could do for people. So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

But do Poles from outside Warsaw resent when Warsaw gets any infrastructure or do they believe their capital city should see such infrastructure built?

Kreator1984 · 13-04-2013 10:32pm

murphaph wrote: »

But do Poles from outside Warsaw resent when Warsaw gets any infrastructure or do they believe their capital city should see such infrastructure built?

Well, to be honest with You, the rest of Poland do not really like Warsaw people at all, I am not from Warsaw either, we call people from Warsaw a "posh white collars" or "suit people". It is something like Northside Dublin people dont like much Southside people. People from outside Warsaw know that they wont change anything anyway - Warsaw was , is and always will be the most important city in the whole country.

murphaph · 14-04-2013 7:23am

Kreator1984 wrote: »

Well, to be honest with You, the rest of Poland do not really like Warsaw people at all, I am not from Warsaw either, we call people from Warsaw a "posh white collars" or "suit people". It is something like Northside Dublin people dont like much Southside people. People from outside Warsaw know that they wont change anything anyway - Warsaw was , is and always will be the most important city in the whole country.

As is Dublin but it doesn't stop our rural brethren going ballistic at the idea of Dublin getting infrastructure commensurate with its needs. In Ireland the rural vote is still strong enough to scupper infrastructure plans for Dublin at the expense of crazy schemes like the wrc.

I've been to Warsaw twice and Wroclaw as well (and other places near the German border). Poland is getting stuff built.

Geogregor · 14-04-2013 3:13pm

Kreator1984 wrote: »

That would be the worst solution the government could do for people. So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

The need for underground metro shouldn't be decided by prestige arguments. Decision about building expensive underground infrastructure should be made based on projected ridership, cost-benefit analyses, technical (including geological) research. etc. I'm not that familiar with transport needs of Dublin, but they shouldn't build metro just because relatively poor Poland has one.

murphaph wrote: »

But do Poles from outside Warsaw resent when Warsaw gets any infrastructure or do they believe their capital city should see such infrastructure built?

People in many countries resent investment in big capitol cities. However situation in Poland is also complicated by the fact that Warsaw is relatively small comparing to the size of the country.
Economically and demographically Dublin absolutely dominates Ireland the same way Budapest dominates Hungary. Dublin has population of, what, 1,5mln? Maybe even 1.8-2mln, if you include all the far suburbs and commuter towns. It's huge proportion of 4.5mln people living in Republic of Ireland.
By comparison population of Warsaw is about 2.5-3mln in 38mln country. Way smaller proportion. We have larger urban zones in Poland (like Silesia) or not much smaller than Warsaw (Krakow or Gdansk regions).
I would say resentment towards Warsaw is higher in Poland than towards Dublin in Ireland.

Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

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