Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

OssianSmyth

In a recent document from the C&AG, I notice the estimated costs for these projects had finally been published. Up to now they had been treated like the secrets of Fatima.

Metro North: €3bn
Dart Underground: €4bn
Metro West: €1.4bn

Metro North has planning permission until 2020
Dart Underground's permission is subject to a judicial review but will get 10 years permission if it wins that case.

The next date when the government says it will review these projects is 2015 (next capital envelope). Presumably we are waiting for the next boom so that the price of materials and labour will be higher.

Ireland's 10 year cost of borrowing is now back at 4%.

€226m spent to date on these three cancelled projects. Will they ever happen?

Mahogany

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

lucernarian

Mahogany wrote: »

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

For a train service that's even slower than the express buses? What a waste of money. It wouldn't be so bad if such a train service was built out to Swords via the airport but I don't think the airport alone deserves even €300 million in such expenditure when it's already served by a considerable number of bus routes beside a motorway.

admiralofthefleet

Mahogany wrote: »

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

what about the areas of the northside that have been very neglected in favour of luas? Metro North isnt just a line to the airport, it connects with heavily populated areas as well.
scrap new luas lines and proceed with metro north i say. the construction industry could do with the boost as well im sure

connolly is at capacity as well afaik so another heavy rail line from the airport isnt feasible.

FreudianSlippers

They could be done at half that price if they were tendered last year. Shame really; we could have had NM and DU for the price of one had out government had any foresight.

donvito99

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They could be done at half that price if they were tendered last year. Shame really; we could have had NM and DU for the price of one had out government had any foresight.

Or cash.

FreudianSlippers

donvito99 wrote: »

Or cash.

When has any government of any country ever paid for anything in "cash"?

Zebra3

donvito99 wrote: »

Or cash.

There's plenty of cash.

Stop giving it to foreign banks.

Problem solved.

donvito99

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

When has any government of any country ever paid for anything in "cash"?

Yes, it's called debt, which we have plenty of. Not to say that I'm opposed to either of these projects.

Amirani

donvito99 wrote: »

Yes, it's called debt, which we have plenty of. Not to say that I'm opposed to either of these projects.

Debt and cash are very different. If they weren't, there'd be no banking crisis.

Peregrine

Guys, you know the line going underground Phoenix Park and goes through Drumcondra onwards to Connolly? Can it be used?

I've read somewhere few years ago that it could be a temporary fix before DU is built but is it feasible? I don't know too much on this topic I'm afraid.

etchyed

OssianSmyth wrote: »

In a recent document from the C&AG...

Any chance of a link?

OssianSmyth

etchyed wrote: »

Any chance of a link?

here it is: (PDF)
http://bit.ly/10AT0YJ

yer man!

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Guys, you know the line going underground Phoenix Park and goes through Drumcondra onwards to Connolly? Can it be used?

I've read somewhere few years ago that it could be a temporary fix before DU is built but is it feasible? I don't know too much on this topic I'm afraid.

Not feasible due to Connolly over capacity.

Heroditas

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

what about the areas of the northside that have been very neglected in favour of luas? Metro North isnt just a line to the airport, it connects with heavily populated areas as well.
scrap new luas lines and proceed with metro north i say. the construction industry could do with the boost as well im sure

connolly is at capacity as well afaik so another heavy rail line from the airport isnt feasible.

I would also have thought that if they want to build a spur from Clongriffin to the airport, it would have to be done in tandem with something like DART Underground? Might it work in that situation?
Of course, that doesn't do anything for the Northside areas that would have been covered by the Metro.

strassenwo!f

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Dart Underground's permission is subject to a judicial review but will get 10 years permission if it wins that case.

Why the judicial review?

OssianSmyth

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Why the judicial review?

I believe it was brought by two landowners on the grounds that as the project has no funding that it should not be granted permission.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Why the judicial review?

Two parties have sought a Judicial Review of the Railway Order. Both parties argue that the Railway Order is null and void on the basis that their land is blighted and there is no funding for the project. http://www.irishrail.ie/media/2011IEAnnualReportEnglish2.pdf

......

Ireland : Planning and environment

Within Planning and environment, Mason Hayes & Curran is a second tier firm,

Respected construction lawyer Rory Kirrane heads Mason Hayes & Curran’s planning and environment practice. Susan Bryson is advising developer Flancrest Enterprises in a judicial review of planning permission to construct the Dart underground through its land. - http://www.legal500.com/firms/10395/offices/10434

TheBandicoot

This one?

monument

TheBandicoot wrote: »

This one?

Strangely that was one of the main refrences to such a company when I had a quick Google of the name.

Victor

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Metro North: €3bn
Dart Underground: €4bn
Metro West: €1.4bn

Where does it actually say this?

OssianSmyth

pp.13-14 of http://bit.ly/10AT0YJ

BluntGuy

donvito99 wrote: »

Or cash.

Eh, may be the case now, but money is not the main reason these projects are unlikely to see the light of day any time soon.

Heroditas wrote:

I would also have thought that if they want to build a spur from Clongriffin to the airport, it would have to be done in tandem with something like DART Underground? Might it work in that situation?

A 3 or 4 tracking of the northern line would be needed (and is needed anyway).

GerardKeating

BluntGuy wrote: »

Eh, may be the case now, but money is not the main reason these projects are unlikely to see the light of day any time soon.



A 3 or 4 tracking of the northern line would be needed (and is needed anyway).

It would be nearly cheaper/easier to Build Metro North as a four track heavy rail and continue it to link with the northern line. near Rush/Lusk

BluntGuy

GerardKeating wrote: »

It would be nearly cheaper/easier to Build Metro North as a four track heavy rail and continue it to link with the northern line. near Rush/Lusk

That would impede the Metro North being linked with the Luas green line though?

Cool Mo D

GerardKeating wrote: »

It would be nearly cheaper/easier to Build Metro North as a four track heavy rail and continue it to link with the northern line. near Rush/Lusk

The most expensive part of tunneling is not the tunnel itself, but excavating and fitting out large underground stations. Adding bigger stations with DART-style 200m platforms to Metro-north would be very expensive.

A two-track tunnel between Clontarf road and Clongriffin might be possible though - if you move the DART depot at Clontarf road, there is plenty of space for a tunnel portal, and you can four track the Northern line free of disruption to existing services, and without the expense of rebuilding a lot of stations.

The tunnel itself would be reasonably straightforward - narrower and less ventilation required than the Port Tunnel for example, and no stations inside, so should be relatively inexpensive. Possibly cheaper than a surface 4-tracking when you take station rebuilding, property acquisition, and removing embankments into account.

Kreator1984

Mahogany wrote: »

Scrap Metro North, connect the line from Clongriffin to the Airport, at a 10th of the price.

Capital Spending doesn't get enough looking at in this country.

That would be the worst solution the government could do for people. So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

murphaph

Kreator1984 wrote: »

That would be the worst solution the government could do for people. So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

But do Poles from outside Warsaw resent when Warsaw gets any infrastructure or do they believe their capital city should see such infrastructure built?

Kreator1984

murphaph wrote: »

But do Poles from outside Warsaw resent when Warsaw gets any infrastructure or do they believe their capital city should see such infrastructure built?

Well, to be honest with You, the rest of Poland do not really like Warsaw people at all, I am not from Warsaw either, we call people from Warsaw a "posh white collars" or "suit people". It is something like Northside Dublin people dont like much Southside people. People from outside Warsaw know that they wont change anything anyway - Warsaw was , is and always will be the most important city in the whole country.

murphaph

Kreator1984 wrote: »

Well, to be honest with You, the rest of Poland do not really like Warsaw people at all, I am not from Warsaw either, we call people from Warsaw a "posh white collars" or "suit people". It is something like Northside Dublin people dont like much Southside people. People from outside Warsaw know that they wont change anything anyway - Warsaw was , is and always will be the most important city in the whole country.

As is Dublin but it doesn't stop our rural brethren going ballistic at the idea of Dublin getting infrastructure commensurate with its needs. In Ireland the rural vote is still strong enough to scupper infrastructure plans for Dublin at the expense of crazy schemes like the wrc.

I've been to Warsaw twice and Wroclaw as well (and other places near the German border). Poland is getting stuff built.

Geogregor

Kreator1984 wrote: »

That would be the worst solution the government could do for people. So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

The need for underground metro shouldn't be decided by prestige arguments. Decision about building expensive underground infrastructure should be made based on projected ridership, cost-benefit analyses, technical (including geological) research. etc. I'm not that familiar with transport needs of Dublin, but they shouldn't build metro just because relatively poor Poland has one.

murphaph wrote: »

But do Poles from outside Warsaw resent when Warsaw gets any infrastructure or do they believe their capital city should see such infrastructure built?

People in many countries resent investment in big capitol cities. However situation in Poland is also complicated by the fact that Warsaw is relatively small comparing to the size of the country.
Economically and demographically Dublin absolutely dominates Ireland the same way Budapest dominates Hungary. Dublin has population of, what, 1,5mln? Maybe even 1.8-2mln, if you include all the far suburbs and commuter towns. It's huge proportion of 4.5mln people living in Republic of Ireland.
By comparison population of Warsaw is about 2.5-3mln in 38mln country. Way smaller proportion. We have larger urban zones in Poland (like Silesia) or not much smaller than Warsaw (Krakow or Gdansk regions).
I would say resentment towards Warsaw is higher in Poland than towards Dublin in Ireland.

lucernarian

Geogregor wrote: »

The need for underground metro shouldn't be decided by prestige arguments. Decision about building expensive underground infrastructure should be made based on projected ridership, cost-benefit analyses, technical (including geological) research. etc. I'm not that familiar with transport needs of Dublin, but they shouldn't build metro just because relatively poor Poland has one.

Well that's grand so, anything I've read on Metro North suggests a CBA ratio of 2:1.

DART Underground had 2.5:1 from the same source but I forget where I got it exactly. Maybe another poster here could confirm the source of these numbers?

AngryLips

Kreator1984 wrote: »

So many countries within EU have Metro(under or over - ground) , even poor countries like Poland has one line of Metro in Warsaw and now they are building the second line over there. I think that it would be a big shame to do not have Metro in Dublin. Dublin is a capitol city of the one of the EU countries - it deserves for it!

I love this misguided notion that a good city should be defined by its metro network. We haven't even made a proper go of making Luas work in an integrated way yet and already it has been deemed inappropriate for the city's needs, yet there's no evidence to back that up. Even Dart/suburban rail hasn't had it's full potential realised.

Kreator1984

Geogregor wrote: »

I'm not that familiar with transport needs of Dublin, but they shouldn't build metro just because relatively poor Poland has one.

Gregor , I am not saying that they shuld build metro because Poland has it, no, they should build because we hae the 21st century, because most of EU countries have it (even those outside EU , eg Russia) and because this is one of the fastest, most convenient, the best capacity and frequency transit system of people in the city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems - Looking at this list should convince most people that metro is a world widespread system and it is really wanted by people all around the world.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Znaki_metra - Signage of metro

Warsaw Metro

I dont know very well Dublins transport needs either cause I am Polish (European) as well but I know that metro is necessary - and I wont change my mind.

Kreator1984

Geogregor wrote: »

By comparison population of Warsaw is about 2.5-3mln in 38mln country. Way smaller proportion. We have larger urban zones in Poland (like Silesia) or not much smaller than Warsaw (Krakow or Gdansk regions).
I would say resentment towards Warsaw is higher in Poland than towards Dublin in Ireland.

I remember that years ago there was a plan of the overground metro(tram/train) system in Upper Silesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Silesia) but they changed their plans due to the mining damages. But that would be a great idea for over 4 million people living over there.

I agree with You , Grzegorz, the resentment in Poland is much higher than in Dublin , I guess it`s because we, Poles, are very fightful citizenship

Victor

I think one can get caught up in applying specific names, technologies and styles - what is needed is an appropriate rail system for local needs. Once adequate levels of separation and service are achieved - nobody overly cares whether it is elevated, at ground level, below ground level or underground. Electrify the Maynooth line, complete resignalling and level crosing work and DART would become a metro in all but name.

Geogregor

Kreator1984 wrote: »

I dont know very well Dublins transport needs either cause I am Polish (European) as well but I know that metro is necessary - and I wont change my mind.

Luckily it is neither you nor me who has to make that decision as we both simply don't have enough precise knowledge about Dublin needs.

These sort of decisions have to be based on proper research and analyses of local needs and conditions and not on simplistic notion that: "hey, we have 21st century, let's build some underground metro, let's splash some cash and we'll see how it goes!"

And yes, we Poles are quite argumentative, I definitely am

Victor wrote: »

I think one can get caught up in applying specific names, technologies and styles - what is needed is an appropriate rail system for local needs. Once adequate levels of separation and service are achieved - nobody overly cares whether it is elevated, at ground level, below ground level or underground. Electrify the Maynooth line, complete resignalling and level crosing work and DART would become a metro in all but name.

Very interesting and thoughtful post.

OssianSmyth

Geogregor wrote: »

These sort of decisions have to be based on proper research and analyses of local needs and conditions and not on simplistic notion that: "hey, we have 21st century, let's build some underground metro, let's splash some cash and we'll see how it goes!"

It would be unfair to describe the planning process for Metro North as "let's splash some cash".

The policy to build a metro was published 12 years ago. This is the non-technical summary:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2664-0.pdf

At least three business cases were published for Metro North such as http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2664-0.pdf

Academic papers like this examined the feasibility of Metro North
http://www.econstor.eu/dspace/bitstream/10419/50124/1/601511492.pdf

Irish Steve

OssianSmyth wrote: »

It would be unfair to describe the planning process for Metro North as "let's splash some cash".

The policy to build a metro was published 12 years ago. This is the non-technical summary:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2664-0.pdf

At least three business cases were published for Metro North such as http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2664-0.pdf

Academic papers like this examined the feasibility of Metro North
http://www.econstor.eu/dspace/bitstream/10419/50124/1/601511492.pdf

And thereby hangs some of the problems with doing anything with infrastructure in this country.

The M50 route was on paper in 1986 when I first came to Ireland, but didn't get built for years, and by the time it was, the original plan, size, junction layouts and basic structure, including the asinine toll plaza "that wouldn't delay traffic", (Yeah, well we all saw how that worked out) were out of date and inappropriate for the task they had to meet. When it was first put on paper, there would have been no issues or problems to build multi level cloverleaf free flow intersections, but by the time it was built, and they "discovered" that the Mad Cow and other junctions were a nightmare, they'd allowed all manner of construction too close to the line to be able to easily upgrade the junctions so we got the worst of both worlds, with some crazy tight curves and level changes, which are downright dangerous unless you drive a Porsche, it's impossible to accelerate from 30 to 100 Kph in the length of some of the entry slip allowances, and if they'd made Blanchardstown any more complicated, they'd not have been able to build it. I also have to wonder at the mental processes that thought putting a LUAS line through the middle of the busiest junction in the country was a sensible idea!

Most of those problems could easily have been forseen had there been any will to do so, but we are cursed with having politicians that can't and won't see beyond the next election, so just about everything that gets approved or done is on the basis of the person approving it getting the electoral benefit for doing so, short term, which is about the worst possible way to develop a country.

We desperately need some people with longer term vision for the country, rather than their own back pockets, brown envelopes and pensions, who are prepared to work on providing long term development plans that will be a benefit to the country over all.

Looking in the present political fish pond, that's a very tall order, I don't see much potential in the present incumbents!!!

GerardKeating

BluntGuy wrote: »

That would impede the Metro North being linked with the Luas green line though?

Unless it's connected to DART Underground ?

Aquarius34

Irish Steve wrote: »

And thereby hangs some of the problems with doing anything with infrastructure in this country.

The M50 route was on paper in 1986 when I first came to Ireland, but didn't get built for years, and by the time it was, the original plan, size, junction layouts and basic structure, including the asinine toll plaza "that wouldn't delay traffic", (Yeah, well we all saw how that worked out) were out of date and inappropriate for the task they had to meet. When it was first put on paper, there would have been no issues or problems to build multi level cloverleaf free flow intersections, but by the time it was built, and they "discovered" that the Mad Cow and other junctions were a nightmare, they'd allowed all manner of construction too close to the line to be able to easily upgrade the junctions so we got the worst of both worlds, with some crazy tight curves and level changes, which are downright dangerous unless you drive a Porsche, it's impossible to accelerate from 30 to 100 Kph in the length of some of the entry slip allowances, and if they'd made Blanchardstown any more complicated, they'd not have been able to build it. I also have to wonder at the mental processes that thought putting a LUAS line through the middle of the busiest junction in the country was a sensible idea!

Most of those problems could easily have been forseen had there been any will to do so, but we are cursed with having politicians that can't and won't see beyond the next election, so just about everything that gets approved or done is on the basis of the person approving it getting the electoral benefit for doing so, short term, which is about the worst possible way to develop a country.

We desperately need some people with longer term vision for the country, rather than their own back pockets, brown envelopes and pensions, who are prepared to work on providing long term development plans that will be a benefit to the country over all.

Looking in the present political fish pond, that's a very tall order, I don't see much potential in the present incumbents!!!

As much as I agree with you these posts make my brain hurt because I am telling you the people currently running this country are en effin joke. I remember when Mary O Rourke wetting herself over the Luas. I mean literally.. The whole ribbon cutting celebrations et all. We dug up the trams 30 years ago. It was the most glorified thing going on in the media for years about it. It's a fecking tram that was built over mostly on greenfield site from Tallaght to Inchicore while crossing a motorway signaled controlled roundabout interchange. They also forgot to link the two luas lines in the city to top that. I am going to stop now I just can't put up with this any longer.. The people who run this country need to go somewhere else. I don't know what they are but they are NOT Irish...This country could do at least 10 times better if it were run by people who actually cared about this nation.

cgcsb

Aquarius34 wrote: »

As much as I agree with you these posts make my brain hurt because I am telling you the people currently running this country are en effin joke. I remember when Mary O Rourke wetting herself over the Luas. I mean literally.. The whole ribbon cutting celebrations et all. We dug up the trams 30 years ago. It was the most glorified thing going on in the media for years about it. It's a fecking tram that was built over mostly on greenfield site from Tallaght to Inchicore while crossing a motorway signaled controlled roundabout interchange. They also forgot to link the two luas lines in the city to top that. I am going to stop now I just can't put up with this any longer.. The people who run this country need to go somewhere else. I don't know what they are but they are NOT Irish...This country could do at least 10 times better if it were run by people who actually cared about this nation.

Nobody forgot about linking the two luas lines. A certain city centre business association told a certain TD (then minister) in no uncertain terms, that if the luas went through college green (i.e. disrupting their business) that TD would not succeed in the following election.

Now that we have a new government, construction work on connecting the two luas lines is due to start next month, and finish in 2017.

lucernarian

cgcsb wrote: »

Nobody forgot about linking the two luas lines. A certain city centre business association told a certain TD (then minister) in no uncertain terms, that if the luas went through college green (i.e. disrupting their business) that TD would not succeed in the following election.

Now that we have a new government, construction work on connecting the two luas lines is due to start next month, and finish in 2017.

This is a little off-topic, but certainly in a world where Metro North was to be constructed (linking Stephen's Green with O'Connell St) I couldn't see why the tram should also be extended over that part of the route. When the full impact of Luas construction and operation is felt on Dublin Bus services, the merits of linking the two Luas lines may not seem so clear-cut. Perhaps the linking-up will be hailed as a success sans Metro North but I remain to be convinced.

FreudianSlippers

Couldn't Metro North now start at Parnell Square or Grangegotman theoretically with the Luas BXD serving both those stops? I'd imagine it would result in substantial savings and still deliver a relatively comparable service in terms of rail transport links to the airport / swords?

spacetweek

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Couldn't Metro North now start at Parnell Square or Grangegotman theoretically with the Luas BXD serving both those stops? I'd imagine it would result in substantial savings and still deliver a relatively comparable service in terms of rail transport links to the airport / swords?

No because that is not the city centre. This is the same thinking that got the Luas Green Line as far as Stephen's Green and sher you can walk the rest of the way.

The reasons for overlapping the Parnell-SGreen sections of Luas and Metro North are:
- Busiest axis of the city, heavy pedestrian and public transport usage, central node
- Serve different markets: Tram is slow but easy to access - ideal for short journeys, underground is rapid but takes longer to get to a train - best for long journeys
- Duplicated section is very short compared to overall lengths of both lines

lucernarian

spacetweek wrote: »

- Serve different markets: Tram is slow but easy to access - ideal for short journeys, underground is rapid but takes longer to get to a train - best for long journeys

This part I'm not so sure about. I don't see why users couldn't take the metro from Stephen's green to Parnell Square. The extra amount of time, in all likelihood adding up to a couple of minutes, to access the metro would more than make up for the speed of journeys on the tram over the same distance covered.

I feel that if the Metro North project does eventually go ahead, it lessens the need for the LUAS extension between the bottom of O'Connell St. and Stephen's Green.

Aquarius34

cgcsb wrote: »

Nobody forgot about linking the two luas lines. A certain city centre business association told a certain TD (then minister) in no uncertain terms, that if the luas went through college green (i.e. disrupting their business) that TD would not succeed in the following election.

Now that we have a new government, construction work on connecting the two luas lines is due to start next month, and finish in 2017.

Haha that's just gossip to me. "A new government"? Sorry what was that. My iears need syringing..There was never such thing as a new government since "governing" started. We don't have a public transport system. We can't seemato just build one. We sure can talk about it. Which keeps me coming back to the point, who and what exactly is running this country? It doesn't seem to make any sense. 4 decades of planning a metro. It can be overlooked as comedy but I am not laughing because ti's not funny to me.

cgcsb

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

This is a little off-topic, but certainly in a world where Metro North was to be constructed (linking Stephen's Green with O'Connell St) I couldn't see why the tram should also be extended over that part of the route. When the full impact of Luas construction and operation is felt on Dublin Bus services, the merits of linking the two Luas lines may not seem so clear-cut. Perhaps the linking-up will be hailed as a success sans Metro North but I remain to be convinced.

because if metro were there but no luas, northbound passengers intending on accessing more central red line stops would have to change twice. also there'd be no service to cabra/phibsboro.

cgcsb

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Haha that's just gossip to me. "A new government"? Sorry what was that. My iears need syringing..There was never such thing as a new government since "governing" started. We don't have a public transport system. We can't seemato just build one. We sure can talk about it. Which keeps me coming back to the point, who and what exactly is running this country? It doesn't seem to make any sense. 4 decades of planning a metro. It can be overlooked as comedy but I am not laughing because ti's not funny to me.

I'm not defending the slowness of government on the issue, I'm merely explaining why the lines weren't linked up. You do love a good moan don't ya.

lucernarian

cgcsb wrote: »

because if metro were there but no luas, northbound passengers intending on accessing more central red line stops would have to change twice. also there'd be no service to cabra/phibsboro.

I'm not sure changing twice is a big deal. It's still a good improvement on what has existed before. I agree it's not ideal but is the practical impact of using Metro North instead of the tram from SG to O'Connell St a significant one?

More importantly, I didn't say anything about the project north of O'Connell St (i.e. LUAS D), I think that should go ahead as planned. It's the need for linking up the Red line with the existing green line that I question if Metro North will be built as planned.

cgcsb

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I'm not sure changing twice is a big deal. It's still a good improvement on what has existed before. I agree it's not ideal but is the practical impact of using Metro North instead of the tram from SG to O'Connell St a significant one?

More importantly, I didn't say anything about the project north of O'Connell St (i.e. LUAS D), I think that should go ahead as planned. It's the need for linking up the Red line with the existing green line that I question if Metro North will be built as planned.

Some slight duplication of routes is not always a bad thing, especially considering the location. That being said it probably would have been preferable to tunnalise the luas from Harcourt st through the city centre with a spur going off into the broadstone railway cutting for finglas and the mainline continuing to swords, probably would've saved some cash and alot of disruption and all, but that'd be forward planning.