Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

etchyed

aindriu80 wrote: »

We didn't build any major projects to date apart from a few dams. When they started out with NDP it was slow, cost overruns and to date we are still in a infrastructure deficit compared to the rest of Europe.

They have been building underground lines in London for 100 odd years. Same with Paris. When you take a look at an aerial photographs of Ireland its untouched. You can see all the industry lines in Belfast and density there but not a whole pile anywhere else bar Docklands in Dublin and a bit in Cork.

I just put us in as novices.

You put us in what?

None of what you've said has any bearing on Ireland's ability to manage large infrastructure projects. For areas in which Ireland lacks experience, technology can simply be procured from abroad.

In the last 10-20 years, the Irish state in its various guises has managed the construction of a nationwide motorway network, two new-build light rail lines and a large bored tunnel through the heart of Dublin city, not to mention various bridge/tunnel projects and railway improvements. To suggest that Ireland lacks expertise/the ability to procure expertise is nonsensical.

aindriu80

etchyed wrote: »

You put us in what?

None of what you've said has any bearing on Ireland's ability to manage large infrastructure projects. For areas in which Ireland lacks experience, technology can simply be procured from abroad.

In the last 10-20 years, the Irish state in its various guises has managed the construction of a nationwide motorway network, two new-build light rail lines and a large bored tunnel through the heart of Dublin city, not to mention various bridge/tunnel projects and railway improvements. To suggest that Ireland lacks expertise/the ability to procure expertise is nonsensical.

Well I didn't want to put too fine of a point on it but were not Germany.

We only put up NDP signs in 2007. We built the likes of Aviva stadium on the likes of Lansdowne Road which cost more than the Allianz Arena. It should have been out near the M50 and have a capacity to match.

Most of eastern Europe had light rail even with communism so it doesn't say much for us for the last 50 odd years with 2 LUAS lines.

I'm not saying we can't build but we did have a banking crisis recently, before that we didn't have a capacity so we never did anything in the first place.

At the end of the day we are still one of the few european countries without a metro line to the airport. If we saw detailed plans of what they come up with the stations would not look like Canary Warf.

etchyed

aindriu80 wrote: »

Well I didn't want to put too fine of a point on it but were not Germany.

We only put up NDP signs in 2007. We built the likes of Aviva stadium on the likes of Lansdowne Road which cost more than the Allianz Arena. It should have been out near the M50 and have a capacity to match.

Most of eastern Europe had light rail even with communism so it doesn't say much for us for the last 50 odd years with 2 LUAS lines.

I'm not saying we can't build but we did have a banking crisis recently, before that we didn't have a capacity so we never did anything in the first place.

At the end of the day we are still one of the few european countries without a metro line to the airport. If we saw detailed plans of what they come up with the stations would not look like Canary Warf.

What are you, ten? You're viewing this in an extremely simplistic manner, and you haven't replied to the point about acquiring technology/expertise.

aindriu80

etchyed wrote: »

What are you, ten? You're viewing this in an extremely simplistic manner, and you haven't replied to the point about acquiring technology/expertise.

I'm probably older than you and probably better educated. If you can't understand any of the points I made tough .

Whether Ireland can go ahead with large projects in the future remains to be seen. We don't even produce enough engineers to build our own wind farms. Talk about acquiring technology/expertise ?

donvito99

aindriu80 wrote: »

I'm probably older than you and probably better educated.

Oooh matron.

Victor

etchyed wrote: »

What are you, ten?

Behave, the lot of you.

Moderator

mackerski

Jack Noble wrote: »

with the Easter Rising Centenary ahead there is no way the govt will turn parts of O'Connell Street into a big hole the Ground this side of 2016.

Can't see why not - that's pretty much how it would have looked in the aftermath of the event they want to commemorate.

Grandeeod

Jack Noble wrote: »

This is just a hunch but I think Dart Underground could get the nod in the next couple of years if some exchequer and EU funding becomes available for 'stimulus' projects and Ireland looks more attractive to long-term PPPs.

Dart Underground is an easier 'sell' to the public because it will serve a far larger population in and beyond Dublin. Also it is an established 'brand' to people and it also has a longer construction period (6 to 8 years) than Metro North (4 to 5 years)which could spread out any upfront payments the State has to make as part of a PPP contribution could also be spread out.

I think Metro North is off the agenda for at least a decade at this stage - not simply because of the lack of funding but also since Luas BXD has now got the green light and with the Easter Rising Centenary ahead there is no way the govt will turn parts of O'Connell Street into a big hole the Ground this side of 2016. Remember, DartU goes nowhere near OCS and the GPO.

But if DartU does get the go ahead and is built/under construction by the latter half of the decade, then that will make MetroN more attractive to the private sector in the longer term.

But as I said, that's just a hunch...

I think your hunch is wishful thinking. I am a firm believer that even if the good times had continued to roll, we would still be chattering away here about a start date for MN and DU. In Ireland, its not just about money. Its about political will and that will is heavily dependent on ignoring the screams of pain from rural Ireland. Realistically we have very little to show in public transport terms after so many years of wealth.

cgcsb

aindriu80 wrote: »

We don't even produce enough engineers to build our own wind farms. Talk about acquiring technology/expertise ?

Are you joking, currently we are exporting our engineers to countries where there are work for them.

Jack Noble

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think your hunch is wishful thinking. I am a firm believer that even if the good times had continued to roll, we would still be chattering away here about a start date for MN and DU. In Ireland, its not just about money. Its about political will and that will is heavily dependent on ignoring the screams of pain from rural Ireland. Realistically we have very little to show in public transport terms after so many years of wealth.

Unlike Metro North, Dart Underground is not a 'Dublin only' project - it will allow a quantum leap in terms of improved commuter services between Dublin and the midlands, the northeast and southeast and, in the longer-term, allow for a serious upgrade of the intercity network through electrification of the mainlines.

This in turn will allow through-running of trains from Belfast to Cork, Limerick and Galway, and could be done via Dublin Airport with additional infrastructure such as the Clongriffin spur and four-tracking the Northern line into Connolly. The plans for such upgrades already exist - what is missing at present is the finance and, as you say, the political will.

The finance will return when the economy starts moving again and commuter/travel demand increases with it and Ireland becomes attractiive again to invest it. The political will should come when enough TDs along the main rail lines beyond Dublin cop on that the DU tunnel and electrification in Dublin can provide benefits for their parishes too.

Electrification is the only long-term option for the mainline and commuter rail networks in Ireland as oil prices rise and the cost of car travel and diesel rail travel rise with them. The decision to electrify will have to be taken - the only question is when. Ireland is the most petrol/diesel dependent country in the EU for transport and that will have to change in the coming decades.

One possible impetus for major investment in the rail network that I can see is if Ireland secures the Rugby World Cup in 2023 or 2027. There is nothing like a global showcase to spur investments in and upgrades to national infrastructure - which if done right can have long-term benefits for the country. While, 2023 is a bit tight for a massive upgrade to the mainline network - including Dart Underground and electrification of the inter-city lines serving the main host cities (Dublin, Belfast, Thurles, Cork, Limerick, Galway) - 2027 is not as it also ties in with Irish Rail's own electrification timetable to coincide with fleet replacement plans as current rolling stock reaches the end of service lives.

I do believe that the political will can be found over the coming years for Dart Underground once the people Cork, Limerick, Galway and towns along those lines - and their TDs - can be convinced of the long-term benefits for them and not just Dubs.

Metro North, on the other hand, is very much seen as a stand-alone Dublin project, especially without Dart Underground to create a wider integrated public transport rail network in Dublin and surrounding counties.

However, with the construction of DartU first, Metro North (and West and other Metro/Luas lines) become much more attractive prospects for long-term investment, whether by the State via long-term borrowing and/or through the PPP route.

That's my two cents' worth. As I said, my hunch is that DartU will get the nod in the near future if/when economic conditions improve because it has so many more advantages over Metro due to what it can do for the wider rail network and the country as a whole - and will thus be much more sellable to the ordinary punters and their parish pump TDs.

aindriu80

cgcsb wrote: »

Are you joking, currently we are exporting our engineers to countries where there are work for them.

Exporting ? I think having to leave would be a better description.

Jack Noble

I know one of the main engineers on one of the two rail tunnel projects. He is Irish-born and educated in an Irish university, worked and gained his experience in the UK and elsewhere, came back to Ireland and worked on several major civil engineering schemes, culminating in a senior role on one of the two big rail schemes. He's now back in the UK working on a major project but is still involved in the Dublin scheme and fully expects it to go ahead within this decade.

stevedublin

aindriu80 wrote: »

Exporting ? I think having to leave would be a better description.

They have to leave because there is not enough work here for engineers.

aindriu80

stevedublin wrote: »

They have to leave because there is not enough work here for engineers.

Well my point is that there is no coherent, complete plan in this country to develop a state of the art Metro for Dublin hence the status quo.

Jack Noble

aindriu80 wrote: »

Well my point is that there is no coherent, complete plan in this country to develop a state of the art Metro for Dublin hence the status quo.

But the plans do exist and two of them have full planning permission and are 'shovel ready', as they say. Both have been postponed due to the financial crisis. Others are in various stages of planning - now also stalled for the same reason.

All of the plans are part of a single, long-term strategy for an integrated rapid rail network for the Greater Dublin Area.

What is missing is not the talent, ability or experience of the engineers but the finance and the political will to build Metro and Dart and Luas which will form the network.

aindriu80

Jack Noble wrote: »

But the plans do exist and two of them have full planning permission and are 'shovel ready', as they say. Both have been postponed due to the financial crisis. Others are in various stages of planning - now also stalled for the same reason.

All of the plans are part of a single, long-term strategy for an integrated rapid rail network for the Greater Dublin Area.

What is missing is not the talent, ability or experience of the engineers but the finance and the political will to build Metro and Dart and Luas which will form the network.

We are leaving the bailout programme this year and have no more troika requirements. Unemployment is 13% and they have to start something. We only has to press the government to turn the sod.

That being said the M50 was 20 years in the making and it was built in retrospect. Better late than never but I don't know if we will ever change gears.

Jack Noble

aindriu80 wrote: »

We are leaving the bailout programme this year and have no more troika requirements. Unemployment is 13% and they have to start something. We only has to press the government to turn the sod.

That being said the M50 was 20 years in the making and it was built in retrospect. Better late than never but I don't know if we will ever change gears.

There's still no money for major infrastructure investments like DU or MN.

And there certainly isn't the political will to invest multiple billions - whether from the exchequer, borrowing or a long-term PPP - into a Dublin rail project when SNA hours and carers' grants are being cut because of the lack of money.

Even if the former was there, the latter is not and won't be this side of the next general election.

EDIT: That said, I won't be surprised to see Metro or Dart (or even both) in all the main parties' election manifestos come GE16.

aindriu80

Jack Noble wrote: »

There's still no money for major infrastructure investments like DU or MN.

And there certainly isn't the political will to invest multiple billions - whether from the exchequer, borrowing or a long-term PPP - into a Dublin rail project when SNA hours and carers' grants are being cut because of the lack of money.

Even if the former was there, the latter is not and won't be this side of the next general election.

I didn't think there was. I don't think there is the capability to go ahead with the projects either. The DU and Metro may well be put off for several years but will have to be built at some stage.

Jack Noble

aindriu80 wrote: »

I didn't think there was. I don't think there is the capability to go ahead with the projects either. The DU and Metro may well be put off for several years but will have to be built at some stage.

Which is what I said above. And that's why I believe DU is more likely to proceed in the shorter term - because it can be 'sold' to parish pumpers around the country as project that can benefit their constituencies as well as Dublin.

FreudianSlippers

aindriu80 wrote: »

We are leaving the bailout programme this year and have no more troika requirements. Unemployment is 13% and they have to start something. We only has to press the government to turn the sod.

That being said the M50 was 20 years in the making and it was built in retrospect. Better late than never but I don't know if we will ever change gears.

I've said it before and will say it again: we are far more likely to get the money needed to build either it both projects whilst in bailout. Pitching a reasonable infrastructure project such as this to the ECB and EIF would result in gaining funding to improve unemployment and spur the domestic economy.

aindriu80

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I've said it before and will say it again: we are far more likely to get the money needed to build either it both projects whilst in bailout. Pitching a reasonable infrastructure project such as this to the ECB and EIF would result in gaining funding to improve unemployment and spur the domestic economy.

Well we are leaving bailout country this year so its back to international money markets and our ability to raise money.

Some economists are recommending that Ireland concentrate on SME and hold out on infrastructure. They noted that Japan spent a lot of money on infrastructure and it didn't help their economy as the jobs are short term.

However Japan doesn't have the infrastructure deficit we have and the M50 is choked. They have to develop rail.

Sam Russell

Surely putting a rail connection from Howth Junction to the airport would be a cheap option since most of it would be through open countyside. Continuing it onto Heuston station would be a useful link. Building a spur to jion the mainline to Belfast to the airport connection above would then complete a set of links that would avoid the centre of Dublin.

Peregrine

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely putting a rail connection from Howth Junction to the airport would be a cheap option since most of it would be through open countyside. Continuing it onto Heuston station would be a useful link. Building a spur to jion the mainline to Belfast to the airport connection above would then complete a set of links that would avoid the centre of Dublin.

Well, what's the point in that???

lucernarian

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely putting a rail connection from Howth Junction to the airport would be a cheap option since most of it would be through open countyside. Continuing it onto Heuston station would be a useful link. Building a spur to jion the mainline to Belfast to the airport connection above would then complete a set of links that would avoid the centre of Dublin.

It can't even continue to Heuston Station without some awkward turning at the junction for the Phoenix Park tunnel I thought?? If Dart Underground was built then I can see some limited use for it, notwithstanding the limited capacity on the northern line. There's no point even spending €300 million on it if there's such a limited advantage to providing it compared to the effects on existing commuter rail in Dublin and surrounding areas.

Grandeeod

Jack Noble wrote: »

Unlike Metro North, Dart Underground is not a 'Dublin only' project - it will allow a quantum leap in terms of improved commuter services between Dublin and the midlands, the northeast and southeast and, in the longer-term, allow for a serious upgrade of the intercity network through electrification of the mainlines.

This in turn will allow through-running of trains from Belfast to Cork, Limerick and Galway, and could be done via Dublin Airport with additional infrastructure such as the Clongriffin spur and four-tracking the Northern line into Connolly. The plans for such upgrades already exist - what is missing at present is the finance and, as you say, the political will.

The finance will return when the economy starts moving again and commuter/travel demand increases with it and Ireland becomes attractiive again to invest it. The political will should come when enough TDs along the main rail lines beyond Dublin cop on that the DU tunnel and electrification in Dublin can provide benefits for their parishes too.

Electrification is the only long-term option for the mainline and commuter rail networks in Ireland as oil prices rise and the cost of car travel and diesel rail travel rise with them. The decision to electrify will have to be taken - the only question is when. Ireland is the most petrol/diesel dependent country in the EU for transport and that will have to change in the coming decades.

One possible impetus for major investment in the rail network that I can see is if Ireland secures the Rugby World Cup in 2023 or 2027. There is nothing like a global showcase to spur investments in and upgrades to national infrastructure - which if done right can have long-term benefits for the country. While, 2023 is a bit tight for a massive upgrade to the mainline network - including Dart Underground and electrification of the inter-city lines serving the main host cities (Dublin, Belfast, Thurles, Cork, Limerick, Galway) - 2027 is not as it also ties in with Irish Rail's own electrification timetable to coincide with fleet replacement plans as current rolling stock reaches the end of service lives.

I do believe that the political will can be found over the coming years for Dart Underground once the people Cork, Limerick, Galway and towns along those lines - and their TDs - can be convinced of the long-term benefits for them and not just Dubs.

Metro North, on the other hand, is very much seen as a stand-alone Dublin project, especially without Dart Underground to create a wider integrated public transport rail network in Dublin and surrounding counties.

However, with the construction of DartU first, Metro North (and West and other Metro/Luas lines) become much more attractive prospects for long-term investment, whether by the State via long-term borrowing and/or through the PPP route.

That's my two cents' worth. As I said, my hunch is that DartU will get the nod in the near future if/when economic conditions improve because it has so many more advantages over Metro due to what it can do for the wider rail network and the country as a whole - and will thus be much more sellable to the ordinary punters and their parish pump TDs.

I'll take this in stages Jack. I appreciate that you are looking at it from a very positive viewpoint.

Dart Underground is not a 'Dublin only' project - it will allow a quantum leap in terms of improved commuter services between Dublin and the midlands, the northeast and southeast

The bonkers property market created the ridiculous commutes and put incredible strain on the rail network. The midlands, northeast and southeast are full of housing estates riddled will negative equity, unemployment and ghost estates. We do not need to go back to that. Selling DU on this basis alone would be wrong.

The finance will return when the economy starts moving again and commuter/travel demand increases with it and Ireland becomes attractiive again to invest it.

Irelands boom was fuelled by cheap credit, greed and construction. That is not going to happen again. I don't have to back that up. The proof is well documented. As a nation we are facing the toughest time ever. We have had a boom based on a false economy. We have no history prior to it to suggest we can move our economy with anything else, so I fail to see, at present, where finance will return to such a degree that we can build massive infrastructural projects. Yes we can borrow and I'll return to that point.

The political will should come when enough TDs along the main rail lines beyond Dublin cop on that the DU tunnel and electrification in Dublin can provide benefits for their parishes too.

That's an outdated aspiration. 10 years ago, you could have lobbied for it and made sense. Moving commuters from Tullamore to Dublin and back each day (for example) was caused by inflated house prices. A tiny little country with a small population, should never have been put in a situation like that to begin with. Political will is not there. The country has an incredibly detailed history of poor rail infrastructure development, even during the wealthy years and its during those wealthy years where it's particularly inexcusable.

Electrification is the only long-term option for the mainline and commuter rail networks in Ireland as oil prices rise and the cost of car travel and diesel rail travel rise with them. The decision to electrify will have to be taken - the only question is when. Ireland is the most petrol/diesel dependent country in the EU for transport and that will have to change in the coming decades.

Ireland is a small country with a small population. We can barely justify an IC rail network since the IU Motorways opened. IMO if the decision to electrify becomes a major issue, the IC network will close.

One possible impetus for major investment in the rail network that I can see is if Ireland secures the Rugby World Cup in 2023 or 2027. There is nothing like a global showcase to spur investments in and upgrades to national infrastructure - which if done right can have long-term benefits for the country. While, 2023 is a bit tight for a massive upgrade to the mainline network - including Dart Underground and electrification of the inter-city lines serving the main host cities (Dublin, Belfast, Thurles, Cork, Limerick, Galway) - 2027 is not as it also ties in with Irish Rail's own electrification timetable to coincide with fleet replacement plans as current rolling stock reaches the end of service lives.

Absolutely. But this is Ireland and it's governed by Privately educated twats influenced by self serving eejits, neither of which appears to appreciate the importance of modern, coordinated public transport infrastructure. When I see a change in this attitude, I'll let you know.

I do believe that the political will can be found over the coming years for Dart Underground once the people Cork, Limerick, Galway and towns along those lines - and their TDs - can be convinced of the long-term benefits for them and not just Dubs.

Yes there are slight benefits, but DU is a Dublin area project and if implemented years ago, may have controlled the flight of the desperate for a house brigade to the outer reaches. It would be irresponsible to try and sell it as a coup for commuters living in Thurles, Athlone, Tullamore etc. If we ever get back to reviving a modest and sensible property sector DU as planned should be encouraging the development of land along its operational route. We were heading in that direction belatedly and then it all went tits up.

Metro North, on the other hand, is very much seen as a stand-alone Dublin project,

Yup and a classic example of the Celtic Tiger largesse that was diluted in terms of impact over time. DU is a better project and needed far more regardless of our economic freefall. In fact the entire T21 plan was a "throw darts at a map" fiasco that simply satisfied infrastructure hungry zealots without any real understanding of what Dublin in particular needed. For me, the original Platform for Change document was a good solution for Dublin, before the bankers, solicitors, builders, accountants, politicians and associates got a grip on things and we ended up playing catch up in a free for all war zone.

Irish political culture does not grasp the importance of rail based transport and it's massive contribution to commuting. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but feel compelled to simply point out the major weaknesses in what you are hoping for. I could be wrong. Time will tell. But from my reading of the situation via discussions here, others that are long gone from these forums called it right and currently remain right.

strassenwo!f

And, Grandeeod, apart from the relevant things you mentioned above, there's also the possibility that some people may not urgently want the DU project to happen.

Were it to happen, ready and rapid access to the centre of Dublin would be available to many citizens from West Dublin and areas further afield.

This would make locations along the western parts of the DU project more desirable places to live.

It isn't happening for the moment, so the desirability of places along its route is still somewhat up in the air.

But areas for whom the future of rapid transport into the centre is fairly secure, like along the southside DART line and the Green LUAS, are seeing a significant growth in desirability (property values). What were they up last time, was it 12%?

There is no doubt that a considerable number of the people who make the decisions about these mega-projects live in these areas. As do their children.

Doubtless they have the overall well-being of the Greater Dublin Area at heart.

But, if there is no cash, what is one to do?

Victor

Grandeeod wrote: »

The bonkers property market created the ridiculous commutes and put incredible strain on the rail network. The midlands, northeast and southeast are full of housing estates riddled will negative equity, unemployment and ghost estates. We do not need to go back to that. Selling DU on this basis alone would be wrong.

The greatest benefit will accrue to existing areas of Dublin, e.g. Ballyfermot to St. Stephen's Green in 12 minutes.

strassenwo!f

So Victor, of RUI, comes out, with a post about a point made by Grandeeod.

And, no doubt a valid point.

But earlier on, ome years ago, most of us on this board were treated to an almost continuous stream of detail about the interconnector from RUI, or as it then was, P11.

This stream died, a while back. Perhaps because the main beneficiaries of the interconnctor not happening would be the Dublin-based people, the Southsiders, on the RUI committee.

Or perhaps not. Who knows.

Either way, on the biggest infrastructure project ever to be planned to take place in the Dublin area, RUI are effectively silent on the biggest board in the countryl

Nothing, of course, to do with the fact, that their Dublin-based officers are based along the DART line.

Of course not.

monument

That's mad Ted.

One problem. Dart Underground would be an upgrade of all Dublin routes.

D.L.R.

If only Dublin was its own state, so it could just get on with these projects, and not have to cowtow to the rural parish pump and country&western yee haw TDs.

Sigh, can we be the capital of a different country please?