Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

tayto lover · 11-04-2013 05:49PM

kippy wrote: »

Well if the grass is always greener on the other side - perhaps they should!
Indeed most of us are probably already bondholders of some description already........

And even if we're not we'll continue to pay up and serve them anyway ....
I'd still prefer to fight my corner though than just take all the s*** they throw at me because if you lie down and take it then you will get plenty of it.

Godge · 11-04-2013 10:05PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

That's just an arts course with some teaching modules thrown in. You're not trying to say that they spend 5 days a week for 4 years learning how to excel at the art of teaching, are you? So much so that they become irreplaceable?

The point I'm trying to make is that teaching itself it isn't some highly coveted skill that take years to finally be qualified for. There are thousands of arts graduates who could, in all probability, take up teaching quite quickly were there to be a sudden need for immediate replacements.

You said it doesn't take years to become a teacher.

I provided a link to the course that shows it takes four years to become a primary teacher.

You respond with the above rubbish which is an opinion with no substance to back it up that the course is just a glorified arts course, maybe make some points and link them to real stuff.

As for your arts graduates, there is a post-graduate course to convert arts graduates into primary teachers that takes eighteen months full-time to do. That means a total of 3/4 years plus eighteen months to be a teacher, hardly the short time you think it is.

Farmer Pudsey · 11-04-2013 11:18PM

Godge wrote: »

You said it doesn't take years to become a teacher.

I provided a link to the course that shows it takes four years to become a primary teacher.

You respond with the above rubbish which is an opinion with no substance to back it up that the course is just a glorified arts course, maybe make some points and link them to real stuff.

As for your arts graduates, there is a post-graduate course to convert arts graduates into primary teachers that takes eighteen months full-time to do. That means a total of 3/4 years plus eighteen months to be a teacher, hardly the short time you think it is.

How long it takes to get any qualification of any sort should not be the b all and end all of what this degree is worth. During the boom the PS had an insatiable demand for pay rises. One of the reason's was the rise in the price of housing and the wages paid in the building and associated boom sectors. Also teacher/pupil ratio dropped as well as special needs assistants, extra teachers for this and that.

It was the same right across the PS from 2000-2008 numbers in the PS rose by about a third while the pay and pensions bill went from 8 billion to 18 billion. This was while benchmarking was supposed to provide meaningful reform. We have not had any serious reform of the PS since 2000. Bertie and co every time they had a problem setup a new quango to solve and threw money at it.

creedp · 11-04-2013 11:26PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It was the same right across the PS from 2000-2008 numbers in the PS rose by about a third while the pay and pensions bill went from 8 billion to 18 billion. This was while benchmarking was supposed to provide meaningful reform. We have not had any serious reform of the PS since 2000. Bertie and co every time they had a problem setup a new quango to solve and threw money at it.

What has happenned since 2008? Or does the story end in 2008? For those who are currently looking at a 3rd pay cut of 5.5% in July, this will be an aggregrate cut of just over 20% since 2009. Lets forgot that though and just keep referring to benchmarking. By the way other than benchmarking the insatiable appetite for pay increases also applied to the private sector .. remember the national pay awards?

Dreamertime · 11-04-2013 11:27PM

Delighted to hear the CPSU will not be bound by a corrupt ICTU majority acceptance, it that hapens. Makes me proud to be a CPSU member.

Farmer Pudsey · 11-04-2013 11:40PM

creedp wrote: »

What has happenned since 2008? Or does the story end in 2008? For those who are currently looking at a 3rd pay cut of 5.5% in July, this will be an aggregrate cut of just over 20% since 2009. Lets forgot that though and just keep referring to benchmarking. By the way other than benchmarking the insatiable appetite for pay increases also applied to the private sector .. remember the national pay awards?

Only in certain sectors mostly associated with building and services. At the end of the day if a private company pay too much it will go bust. During the boom we nearly closed down our farming and food and as good as closed down the tourism industry along the west coast to tourists from abroad as in the end only Irish people could afford the prices on borrowed money.

We lost compeditive as school leaver went and worked in well paying building sector and most school leavers would not consider courses in Science, IT or Engineering( except building related).

No it doesn't stop in 2008 but this give us an idea of how out of kilter with realit pay in the PS got in the boom years.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-04-2013 11:43PM

Didn't realise hotel workers and builders were in the public sector, Farmer.

creedp · 11-04-2013 11:52PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Only in certain sectors mostly associated with building and services. At the end of the day if a private company pay too much it will go bust. During the boom we nearly closed down our farming and food and as good as closed down the tourism industry along the west coast to tourists from abroad as in the end only Irish people could afford the prices on borrowed money.

We lost compeditive as school leaver went and worked in well paying building sector and most school leavers would not consider courses in Science, IT or Engineering( except building related).

No it doesn't stop in 2008 but this give us an idea of how out of kilter with realit pay in the PS got in the boom years.

So what you're saying is that no one outside of the building and services sector received pay increases between 2000 and 2008.

Farmer Pudsey · 11-04-2013 11:53PM

ninja900 wrote: »

Didn't realise hotel workers and builders were in the public sector, Farmer.

I was answering the question highlighted.

Godge · 12-04-2013 12:01AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I was answering the question highlighted.

You are answering questions now. How about some answers to the post below in response to one of yours?

Godge wrote: »

"so called work to rules" and industrial action do happen in private sector organisations. Just look at 2012 for example......

Vodafone: http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2012/0424/318342-vodafone-workers-vote-for-strike-action/

Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1115/345841-accountants-institute-facing-industrial-action/

Musgraves: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/musgrave-workers-vote-for-industrial-action-190126.html

Veoila: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/luas-drivers-set-for-industrial-action-1.737882

now what is the definition of industrial action? From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_action

It includes Strike, occupation of factories, work-to-rule etc.

Work-to-rule is defined as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-to-rule

"Work-to-rule is an industrial action in which employees do no more than the minimum required by the rules of their contract, and follow safety or other regulations precisely in order to cause a slowdown"

Deary me, let us look at Irish legislation:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0019/sec0008.html#sec8

Industrial Relations Act 1990.

"“industrial action” means any action which affects, or is likely to affect, the terms or conditions, whether express or implied, of a contract and which is taken by any number or body of workers acting in combination or under a common understanding as a means of compelling their employer, or to aid other workers in compelling their employer, to accept or not to accept terms or conditions of or affecting employment;"

From that definition, it is clear that work-to-rule falls clearly within its scope. Famously some of the more effective work-to-rules over the years have been in banks but hey, why let facts once again get in the way of a rant from the countryside?

They are not claiming that supervision is not part of their duties.

The facts are clear, as I posted already in this thread

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/supervision-and-substitution-scheme/

but repeated for those who failed to read it the first time. THE AGREEMENT PROVIDES THAT IT IS VOLUNTARY.

"A teacher may opt out of this agreement, but will forfeit pensionability. They will not be entitled to a refund of pension contributions paid in respect of supervision and substitution payments. "

Which bit of that do you not understand? The government, acting on your behalf entered an agreement that provides that supervision and substitution is voluntary. The only one claiming that it is not voluntary is yourself.

Have you repealed the 1990 Industrial Relations Act all by yourself? Have you swept away centuries of court decisions in relation to contract law? Have you rewritten the 1937 Constitution? Until you do, teachers and other public staff have the right, subject to certain procedures and processes, to take industrial action in the form of work-to-rules.

It doesn't matter whether you and I think that is a good or a bad thing, the right exists and furthermore, it doesn't matter what Kenny or Gilmore think, that right is further protected under European and international law.

Can you show me figures that

(a) prove that the decrease in private sector employment since 2008 is significantly greater than the decrease in public sector employment?
(b) demonstrate that this greater decrease (if it exists) outweighs the fact that public sector wages on average have fallen further than private sector wages on average

If you do manage to do this, maybe you could reflect further on the implication that the communal solidarity shown by public sector workers in accepting pay cuts has meant more of them kept their jobs while in the private sector the me fein attitude meant people looked after themselves at the expense of their colleagues. Can you tell me any other company in Ireland where the workers went to management and said we will accept pay cuts if you protect everyones job? That is what happened in Croke Park 1 and that has to be admired rather than criticised.

P.S A few links to back up your points mightn't go astray.

Farmer Pudsey · 12-04-2013 12:27AM

creedp wrote: »

So what you're saying is that no one outside of the building and services sector received pay increases between 2000 and 2008.

No I am not but the extravagant wage increases were associated with the PS and with those sectors of the economy that were related to the building boom. In turn this caused wage inflation that has huge cost implication to other sections of Irish Industry farming tourism and multinational employment most of which is export driven. It is no accident as we now begining to get get costs under control that we are finding that multinational are again beginning very slowly mind you to begin expanding in this country while our tourism and agri sector are starting to recover. However these industries can ill afford continual cuts in services to there workers or tax hikes that will lead to it being more expensive for them to employ workers.

kippy · 12-04-2013 08:10AM

Godge wrote: »

Again standing on a soapbox or writing on an internet forum and lambasting the lack or productivity is easy. Actually getting out and making those productivity changes is the hard part. Let us see what this link tells us:

http://implementationbody.gov.ie/productivity/

"The Agreement is enabling the public service to “do more with less”. Demand for certain public services has increased over the course of the current crisis, particularly in the health and social welfare areas. This increased demand is being met by fewer public servants, as staff numbers are reduced, providing evidence of increasing productivity across the public service. Some examples include:
student numbers in the higher education sector are up by 14.9% since the end of the 08/09 academic year while staff numbers reduced by 7.3% during the same period.

There are 500,000 more medical card holders now than in 2007 administered by the health sector.

Defence Forces operations that are required to be delivered by Government, including international commitments in terms of overseas deployments on peace support operations, have been maintained despite a 10% reduction in personnel in the first two years of the Agreement.

The average number of prisoners in custody in the Prison Service is up 23% since 2008 while staff numbers are down 8%.

Garda operational services have been maintained while the numbers of Gardaí have reduced by 7.7% in the first two years of the Agreement, supported by the introduction of new roster arrangements.

The number of recipients of primary weekly welfare payments from the Department of Social Protection has increased by 240,000 or 20% from 1.21m to 1.45m."

Now those are some decent productivity increases. Prison service 30% more efficient? How much room for more?

The next question is who managed that change? Must have been some of those unappreciated managers who face having their pay cut for the third or fourth time?

Nah, couldn't have been, don't you know that the public service is full of wasters who never do a day's work and sure isn't there too many of those administrators too. What have the HSE to say about that?

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/corporate/performancereports/Aug12PerformanceReport.pdf

"There are less people (WTE) employed in management and administration in the Health Sector then at any time since 2002"

Now that is some statement.

So you think everything is hunky dory in the public sector and things in certain areas could not be done more efficiently?

Where are the reports outlining the travel and subsistence bills for staff and politicians "attending meetings"? Why aren't questions asked about the viability of these meetings and the lack of phone conferences etc? Obviously some travel is required in certain jobs but one would wonder if the right FoI was submitted and the data from those figures analysed one may find a significant amount of money is going towards meetings that:
1. May not even be required in the first place.
2. Could be done more efficiently over the phone etc.

Where are the reports outlining the numbers of staff employed in HR/Payroll in the civil and public service? Why aren't questions being asked about why Payroll and HR cannot be centralised for ALL bodies, saving on software fees, reporting efficiency, oversight, and indeed STAFF NUMBERS if done correctly.

Why are there no actual reports into why the HSE "mergers" never actually resulted in job loses at the time, where support staff roles were mirrored across regions, why weren't the merged into one central back office function, jobs made redundant and the savings possibly put into front line staff?

Why do we STILL see certain areas and certain professions get "Allowances". Why HASN'T this been tackled adequately?

There are lots more areas that can be looked at, and I suspect you know it.

To clarify, I never once said the PS was full of wasters who never do ANY work. But just to ask, how many staff at management level did it take to bring about that 30% increase in numbers. Were all of those required - what exactly do they do, how do they manage staff?

Why are we 5 years into this mess, having gone through CP1 and this still isn't anywhere near being a reality/implemented?

Theres plenty other areas where public money is getting wasted and where work could be done more efficiently. Not completely tied to CrokePark but still public money not being used as well as it could.

Obviously plenty has improved to an extent in my mind there are still plenty areas that can be looked at, some that are not entirely visible in any report, such as looking at how work is done, why it is done that why and why it isn't done more efficiently.

kippy · 12-04-2013 08:19AM

tayto lover wrote: »

And even if we're not we'll continue to pay up and serve them anyway ....
I'd still prefer to fight my corner though than just take all the s*** they throw at me because if you lie down and take it then you will get plenty of it.

You do realise what "bondholders" can and are made up of, yes?

tayto lover · 12-04-2013 08:43AM

kippy wrote: »

You do realise what "bondholders" can and are made up of, yes?

Yes i do. But what i can't figure out is why they gave 100% cover and for all of them . Although I hear Noonan was a major one.

Boulevardier · 12-04-2013 08:49AM

Anyone betting at this stage on whether CP2 will get through?

I am betting it is about to be voted down.

kippy · 12-04-2013 08:52AM

Boulevardier wrote: »

Anyone betting at this stage on whether CP2 will get through?

I am betting it is about to be voted down.

I think it will go through marginally however there appear to be enough unions or individual staff members not wanting to be bound by the overall result that will result in some form of industrial action anyway. The legal ramifications of this will be interesting.

tayto lover · 12-04-2013 09:03AM

kippy wrote: »

I think it will go through marginally however there appear to be enough unions or individual staff members not wanting to be bound by the overall result that will result in some form of industrial action anyway. The legal ramifications of this will be interesting.

Hopefully it will divide the unions too and result in many workers cancelling their subs and forming new unions with new leaders who are not so close to the Govt and selling them out.

Godge · 12-04-2013 09:08AM

kippy wrote: »

So you think everything is hunky dory in the public sector and things in certain areas could not be done more efficiently?.

Nothing is ever hunky dory anywhere in organisations, that is one of the things that keeps me in work. However, you can only judge things on progress and the evidence shows in the links I provided that there has been significant progress.

kippy wrote: »

Where are the reports outlining the travel and subsistence bills for staff and politicians "attending meetings"? Why aren't questions asked about the viability of these meetings and the lack of phone conferences etc? Obviously some travel is required in certain jobs but one would wonder if the right FoI was submitted and the data from those figures analysed one may find a significant amount of money is going towards meetings that:
1. May not even be required in the first place.
2. Could be done more efficiently over the phone etc..

Video conferencing is common in the public sector, most public sector organisations use it to a greater or lesser extent but some meetings require attendance. That is true in the private sector as much as the public sector. Leaving aside politicians (they can have their own thread) I bet you will find that there has been a cut in the amount of money spent on travel and subsistence in every public sector organisation over the last five years.

kippy wrote: »

Where are the reports outlining the numbers of staff employed in HR/Payroll in the civil and public service? Why aren't questions being asked about why Payroll and HR cannot be centralised for ALL bodies, saving on software fees, reporting efficiency, oversight, and indeed STAFF NUMBERS if done correctly. .

Do you remember PPARS?

On the other hand, it is well under way apparently:

http://per.gov.ie/2012/05/22/government-announces-plans-for-a-civil-service-wide-human-resources-shared-service-centre-hrssc/

kippy wrote: »

Why are there no actual reports into why the HSE "mergers" never actually resulted in job loses at the time, where support staff roles were mirrored across regions, why weren't the merged into one central back office function, jobs made redundant and the savings possibly put into front line staff?.

Yes, it didn't happen at the time but as the link in my previous post pointed out, management and administration staffing numbers are at 2002 levels at a time when admissions and procedures, services and medical cards have grown at an exponential rate.

kippy wrote: »

Why do we STILL see certain areas and certain professions get "Allowances". Why HASN'T this been tackled adequately?.

Have you read the allowances report which conceded that most of the allowances were actually "core" pay? Have you read CP2 which provides for abolishing many of the rest?

kippy wrote: »

There are lots more areas that can be looked at, and I suspect you know it.

To clarify, I never once said the PS was full of wasters who never do ANY work. But just to ask, how many staff at management level did it take to bring about that 30% increase in numbers. Were all of those required - what exactly do they do, how do they manage staff?.

It certainly wasn't done with no managers but you are the one criticising management numbers from a position of not knowing how many they are and how they work. How can you stand over that criticism?

kippy wrote: »

Why are we 5 years into this mess, having gone through CP1 and this still isn't anywhere near being a reality/implemented?.

Read the implementation reports and see what has been done.

kippy wrote: »

Theres plenty other areas where public money is getting wasted and where work could be done more efficiently. Not completely tied to CrokePark but still public money not being used as well as it could.

Obviously plenty has improved to an extent in my mind there are still plenty areas that can be looked at, some that are not entirely visible in any report, such as looking at how work is done, why it is done that why and why it isn't done more efficiently.

Reform is an ongoing process, nobody is saying (not even the unions) that there isn't room for productivity gains and/or service improvements within existing or decreasing resources. We don't disagree on that. However, broad criticism without any facts to back it up isn't much help.

Godge · 12-04-2013 09:11AM

Boulevardier wrote: »

Anyone betting at this stage on whether CP2 will get through?

I am betting it is about to be voted down.

MLSA result today was interesting.

Executive recommended acceptance but the membership voted 59:41 against.

What does that mean for SIPTU and INTO where the executive made no recommendation?

Public servants are angry too and remember the last election when the general public was angry and voted irrationally for chancers like Micko in Wexford and Ming. Well, public servants may on this occasion vote from anger and reject the deal.

Godge · 12-04-2013 09:14AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

How long it takes to get any qualification of any sort should not be the b all and end all of what this degree is worth. During the boom the PS had an insatiable demand for pay rises. One of the reason's was the rise in the price of housing and the wages paid in the building and associated boom sectors. Also teacher/pupil ratio dropped as well as special needs assistants, extra teachers for this and that.

What point are you trying to make?

A poster said that anyone could become a teacher in no time at all.

I just provided evidence that it takes four years when leaving school and eighteen months on top of 3/4 years if you go the degree route first.

What has that got to do with your post? Your posts are making even less sense than usual.

creedp · 12-04-2013 09:21AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No I am not but the extravagant wage increases were associated with the PS and with those sectors of the economy that were related to the building boom. In turn this caused wage inflation that has huge cost implication to other sections of Irish Industry farming tourism and multinational employment most of which is export driven. It is no accident as we now begining to get get costs under control that we are finding that multinational are again beginning very slowly mind you to begin expanding in this country while our tourism and agri sector are starting to recover. However these industries can ill afford continual cuts in services to there workers or tax hikes that will lead to it being more expensive for them to employ workers.

OK so you were not sayng that there were no pay increases outside building and services but that had there been no insatiable demand for pay increases in building and services then there would have been no insatiable demand for pay increases/pay increases awarded outside building and services.

Chris_5339762 · 12-04-2013 09:30AM

My frustration in a way is that I would support the deal but can't because I refuse to be in a union. So a load of union members are voting on my future pay, terms and conditions.

Farmer Pudsey · 12-04-2013 10:26AM

creedp wrote: »

OK so you were not sayng that there were no pay increases outside building and services but that had there been no insatiable demand for pay increases in building and services then there would have been no insatiable demand for pay increases/pay increases awarded outside building and services.

No I am not saying that there was no increases outside these area's. what I am saying is that wage increases in these area's made the rest on the economy uncompeditive. A young school leaver not dependant on educational ability could go to work on a buliding site/road work with no experience and stary on an income of 30K.

This in turn put pressure on other sectors that lead to the closing factories with low/semi skill requirements. It it had continues all low/semi skill work would have left the contry. An example was that the English Supermarkets were looking at Irish meat plants to mover there slaughter/processing plants north of the border or in some cases processing accross to England.

If the boom did not happen would Dell assembly line have moved as fast from Limerick. It was the area's that fed off building that dominated the Irish economy and taxes from it fueled PS costs that got completely out of line.

In reality our PS wages costs are still around 20% above the European norm. For the amount of money spend we get little poor return on services.

kippy · 12-04-2013 10:28AM

Godge wrote: »

Nothing is ever hunky dory anywhere in organisations, that is one of the things that keeps me in work. However, you can only judge things on progress and the evidence shows in the links I provided that there has been significant progress.

Video conferencing is common in the public sector, most public sector organisations use it to a greater or lesser extent but some meetings require attendance. That is true in the private sector as much as the public sector. Leaving aside politicians (they can have their own thread) I bet you will find that there has been a cut in the amount of money spent on travel and subsistence in every public sector organisation over the last five years.

Do you remember PPARS?

On the other hand, it is well under way apparently:

http://per.gov.ie/2012/05/22/government-announces-plans-for-a-civil-service-wide-human-resources-shared-service-centre-hrssc/

Yes, it didn't happen at the time but as the link in my previous post pointed out, management and administration staffing numbers are at 2002 levels at a time when admissions and procedures, services and medical cards have grown at an exponential rate.

Have you read the allowances report which conceded that most of the allowances were actually "core" pay? Have you read CP2 which provides for abolishing many of the rest?

It certainly wasn't done with no managers but you are the one criticising management numbers from a position of not knowing how many they are and how they work. How can you stand over that criticism?

Read the implementation reports and see what has been done.

Reform is an ongoing process, nobody is saying (not even the unions) that there isn't room for productivity gains and/or service improvements within existing or decreasing resources. We don't disagree on that. However, broad criticism without any facts to back it up isn't much help.

How can I stand over criticism of the amount of managers?
From personal experience.
1. In one area of the civil service one department of approximately 250 people has roughly 100 staff in management grades.
Management by the way, who have absolutely NO control over employee remuneration and as such very little control over employee performance as a result.
Management whose function, some would argue, is to make decisions and sign off on those decisions. However what is the point of paying management salaries and perks if they have absolutely nothing to lose if those decisions and signoffs have no repercussions if they go wrong?
Surely you can see there are issues here? No?

Your bit on videoconferencing is frankly related to a very small portion of the civil/public service I see on a daily basis people attending meetings that could very easily be done over the phone. Why hasn't this been tackled when the technology is there to do it? Who is watching these figures and who is going to do anything about implementing change in this area - management, the very people that these cuts would impact on? Private sector can do what they want in this area (and coming from the private sector I can tell you that there is far greater use for teleconferencing and video conferencing in general) As I said, some travel is required depending on the reason.

How does the HSE manage admissions procedures, medical cards and services - is there any room for greater systems integration and process control in these areas or are they managed as they always have been - I don't know and I haven't seen any report that looks at this.

The government and indeed successive governments have announced plans for shared services for years. Why exactly are these plans so slow to be enacted in reality? PPARs - as far as I was aware was a very poorly managed project with millions in taxpayers money wasted, one of a few I recall at the time, who exactly suffered repurcussions for all that money wasted?
Why not use an off the self product, there are many available? Why is it taking so long to see any of this changed?

If these allowances ARE core pay, then put them INTO core pay where appropriate.

I would hope that there is significant progress as people get paid well for it. However I firmly believe there are far more areas that need to be looked at and prioritised. The monies saved can but put into frontline or improvements where appropriate.

Farmer Pudsey · 12-04-2013 10:41AM

Godge wrote: »

What point are you trying to make?

A poster said that anyone could become a teacher in no time at all.

I just provided evidence that it takes four years when leaving school and eighteen months on top of 3/4 years if you go the degree route first.

What has that got to do with your post? Your posts are making even less sense than usual.

Your biggest issue Godge is that you are only googling what suits you am I factually wrong that PS wages and pensions went from 8 billion in 2000 to 18 billion in 2008.

I have given up at times looking at reports etc as most are compiled by intrested parties. We have a situtation in this country where we have a PS that is paid way above average privte sector wages this has multiple effects on the economy.

These PS workers have a perception that all private sector sole traders are tax dodges and operating on a cash only basis. They consider that we can increase tax'es will nilly.

Godge do you think that we can increse taxes on income above present levels and that water rates etc will rise the projected levels of revenue that are presumed without reducing economic output elsewhere. Do you believe think that we can extract extra tax without economic growth.

I do not claim to be the best educated in the world but condsending comments about my post are a bit much. Also as we have seen the so call best and brightest (Ahern, McCreevy and Cowen) got us in a right mess helped by the unions and CIF.

I also have often found that so called intelligent people who quote stats and figures often get companies into the biggest mess. As they fail to look at issue on the ground. They also fail to micro manage anither thing that our PS lacks

creedp · 12-04-2013 10:46AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In reality our PS wages costs are still around 20% above the European norm. For the amount of money spend we get little poor return on services.

As matter of interest do you have any data on how Irish private sectors wages compare to their EU equivalents?

12-04-2013 10:54AM

Godge wrote: »

You said it doesn't take years to become a teacher.

I provided a link to the course that shows it takes four years to become a primary teacher.

You respond with the above rubbish which is an opinion with no substance to back it up that the course is just a glorified arts course, maybe make some points and link them to real stuff.

As for your arts graduates, there is a post-graduate course to convert arts graduates into primary teachers that takes eighteen months full-time to do. That means a total of 3/4 years plus eighteen months to be a teacher, hardly the short time you think it is.

Oh, don't make me laugh. The original point that I was responding to was, "how will these teachers who spent so long training in the illusive art of teaching be able to retrain after dedicating 4 years of their life to training." My point was that it's all tosh and if it came down to it we could probably produce an army of 'scab' teachers.

And the 4 years spent training as a teacher is exactly the same as those who studied something along the lines of property economics or architecture. My point being: what makes teachers feel like their job is so sacred and untouchable?

Farmer Pudsey · 12-04-2013 11:01AM

creedp wrote: »

As matter of interest do you have any data on how Irish private sectors wages compare to their EU equivalents?

In general Irish private sector wages are around 5-10% above the EU average however the gap between Irish Public Sector wages and Irish Private Sector wages is above the EU average.

creedp · 12-04-2013 11:09AM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

And the 4 years spent training as a teacher is exactly the same as those who studied something along the lines of property economics or architecture. My point being: what makes teachers feel like their job is so sacred and untouchable?

Surely a further point is why would it be productive from the State/Employer's perspective to invest significant resources training teacher in accordance with the standards set out by the employer only to allow them to buzz off necessitating the training of further teachers to replace them.

A more valid argument would be why isnt the State reforming the system that provides for underperforming teachers to be removed rather than cutting the wages of those who are performing. This is simply a cop out by a Govt who simply won't deal with the real issues so instead bribe a couple of union to agree to pay cuts for people so they can boast to the Troika about how tough they are at reducing the deficit. Coincidently this posturing is happening during the Irish Presidency and is therefore getting max exposure across the EU bureaucracy. Im sure the Irish Govt are getting plenty hive fives from the powers than be while they are sipping their brandy's in 5 star hotels and wondering how they will survive this austerity programme. Talk about being divorced from reality!

creedp · 12-04-2013 11:13AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In general Irish private sector wages are around 5-10% above the EU average however the gap between Irish Public Sector wages and Irish Private Sector wages is above the EU average.

I wonder what the Unions would say if the IBEC of this world demanded that private sector employees take one for the country and reduce thier pay by 10% so increase productivity/competiveness and get this country back on the rails as quickly as possible. Sure when we're sorted the pay cuts can be reversed. I mean how could the unions/empoyees morally continue to take their inflated pay while there are 400k on the dole. I'm sure they would universally back such a proposal.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Comments