Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

ardmacha wrote: »

The payment of new taxes is neither here nor there, everyone in the public service has to pay those taxes also. The fact is that hourly private wages have not fallen, they are 0.8% higher than 2008 while those people are trying to get the same services more cheaply by cutting PS wage rates.

How about looking at it like this.

How much WASTE is in the public sector. How much more efficiently could things be done than they are right now?
Is there a need for everything in the public sector as it is now?
Why shouldn't the general population (there are more than private sector workers that pay towards this economy) want to get a more efficient public service?
Why is it that we have so many politicians (local and national)? Why are there so many levels of management in the civil service? What do they manage? Why is it that we have so many local authorities and quangos? What do they do, could it be done better?

They money was there for a few years and spending got out of hand. Those days are over and people expect better value for their "taxes" - and why not?


If private sector wages are so good and it is the place to be right now THEN WORKERS SHOULD GO ABOUT MOVING - let the state worry about replacing them.

tayto lover wrote: »

Industrial action is no good if it doesn't effect anyone.
You need to cause anger when taking industrial action.
You and the other PS bashers will suffer with having to stay home and look after your kids when the teachers strike, which I hope they do. Then you might appreciate the service they provide.

You really have no sense of perspective whatsoever.

I hope they strike too, then I hope the 300,000 unemployed March and say they want their unemployment benefit increased in line with inflation over the last few years.

tayto lover wrote: »

Accusing people of being selfish while scoffing all the buns yourself is a bit rich.

What does this even mean?

noodler wrote: »

You really have no sense of perspective whatsoever.

I hope they strike too, then I hope the 300,000 unemployed March and say they want their unemployment benefit increased in line with inflation over the last few years.

That's no problem, presuming you'll support an increase in taxes to pay for it or is it the case you consider that PS taxes should pay for the unemployed!

kippy wrote: »

AS I SAID
If they are trained teachers they have a pretty limited option when it comes to getting jobs in the private sector WHICH IS WHY they would either have to retrain somewhat or move.
Exactly what I have said through out these posts.................
Same as what happened when the contraction happened in construction. Re-eductate, Relocate or stay on the dole. Or in this case stay in your job and moan that you're not getting paid enough.

Keeping an eye on your career path and future, and constantly reviewing whether or not to stay in the current job or move / retrain is every individuals responsibility. No one should be disagreeing with you there.
Having said that, there isn't a contraction in the majority of the public sector. Numbers are reducing whilst the demand for services is increasing. So it really isn't correct to compare it to the contraction in the construction industry. I think that is where some of the PS feel justly aggrieved.

noodler wrote: »

I think a reduction in PS salaries over 65k is a hell of a lot fairer than new income tax measures on workers who receive 2/3 the minimum wage with none of the pension benefits or job security.

I'm sure you do ... in fact I'd be amazed if you thought any differently. I think it would be much fairer if everybody earning over €100k/€125k in Ireland paid a few bob more tax .. but there you are.

Godge wrote: »

In the post immediately previous to that one.




Oh look it is yours, you wouldn't want to feel unappreciated working your ass off in a mangement position in a local authority or quango? Or a middle management level in the civil service? Or a nurse treating twice as many patients in a shift as five years ago? Or a teacher who is teaching five more kids in the class than five years ago?

You make grandiose statements about lack of productivity in the public sector with absolutely no evidence to back it up yet you wonder why public servants might feel unappreciated reading this thread?

So you wouldn't dare question the viability of some of these areas just because you wouldnt want to make them feel unappreciated?
(I have not named one single person by they way, outside of politicians)
I never even mentioned teachers or nurses in my comment either but yet again the focus turns to teachers and nurses.
Since we are on the subject.
Why are nurses treating twice as many patients as five years ago and why are teachers teaching more kids?

Do you personally believe, as a nation we require as many politicians as we do? As many quangos or state bodies? Surely when you think about it and in all reality you don't see this as acceptable.
Do you really think that there are no areas where a review of what is being done, why it is being done and could it be done better wouldn't pick up on areas for major improvement?

Seriously..........

ardmacha wrote: »

That much is obvious. No doubt you are a mé feiner and are not bothered about the implications of a democratic society using its elected leaders to fund its public services from one seventh of the population rather than people of equal means in the population at large.

If the Public Sector choose to protect people whose roles are no longer necessary or no longer need to exist even via the Croke Park agreement (which their hired lobby group negotiated with the government on their behalf and they susequently approved), why shouldnt the onus be put on the Public Sector to pay more to cover the waste they wont allow to be removed if savings are insufficient? Seems reasonable to me.

Anyway, the unions (aka the Public Sector) are trying to lobby the government to protect their pay by increasing taxes on the rest of the country, dont feel aggrieved if I choose to protect my pay and push back and let my TDs know I want them to seek savings from the Public Sector when I believe them to be spending money so poorly.

On a side note, Kippy, I really admire your attitude towards work and taking personal responsibility for your own circumstances rather than sitting around crying and expecting the world to give you a living. It mirrors my own. If youre so certain your worth €50k a year (or whatever) then go out and prove it; put your skills, qualifications and experience down on your CV and go out and find someone willing to pay you that. If youre a productive worker then chances are once you hand your notice your present employer will offer you better terms and conditions to avoid having you poached by other employers or seeking employment elsewhere. If you cant, then upskill, do further education, go on courses, whatever. The state doesnt owe us a living (and I apply that everyone who bemoans their employer)

Tayto Lover wrote:

I'd be all for industrial action, up to and including strike if I felt i was being unfairly treated. I hope they go for this.

You go around After Hours parading the fact youre a tax evader and wont allow the government to engage in (meaningful) measures to raise revenue and in this thread youre opposing the government engaging in (meaningful) cutting of spending. You know if you paid your taxes the government would have more room for maneuver regards cutting its spending? All things to all people.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

50+% isn't enough? Sure why not just take the lot off them and throw them in jail. Or, we could become realistic about our income and outgoings as a country and cut our cloth to fit. Or, we could increase taxes on the lower paid, many of whom are paying extremely small percentages of their income - but more people fall into this category, so I suppose it's not as victimless a crime as taking from anyone who happens to earn more than you.

All valid points! However, it seems that any suggestions which impact on high paid private sector workers is a non-runner .. they are already paying enough. I'm sure you won't mind me saying that a you're being a bit melodramatic there - there's a slight difference between raising IT a couple of % points on income over lets say €120k and stripping people and throwing them into jail.

On the other hand of course cutting PS pay is without argument a victimless crime. Funny if PS call for higher taxes on all workers wiht higher income, people take the high morale ground about it being begrudgery and these workers can't take any more, yet its OK for private sector workers to look to slash the wages of all the overpaid PS with gold plated pensions. It probably isn't double standards though..

Flex wrote: »

Anyway, the unions (aka the Public Sector) are trying to lobby the government to protect their pay by increasing taxes on the rest of the country, dont feel aggrieved if I choose to protect my pay and push back and let my TDs know I want them to seek savings from the Public Sector when I believe them to be spending money so poorly.

Same old story ...how dare the PS attempt to protect their term and conditions but its OK for me to kick back and use the political system to protect me. The point is the PS don't go around slagging off a whole sector of workers .. telling them their over paid and innefficient even if some are .. so don't feel too aggrieved if the PS push back and campaign against a 3rd reduction in their terms and conditions in 4 years.