Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

Spook_ie · 10-04-2013 10:48PM

Bambi wrote: »

Yeah context is great when you're back pedalling alright :P

You're comparing someone who was a media unknown until he got whacked to one of the most well known political figures of the post war era. It's idiotic on a number of levels so obvious that I'm hoping I won't have to point them out.

Who's back pedaling, I'm not, I know nothing about MT or AR other than what I read, therefore any speculation as to evil or not, bitch or not, criminal or not is subjective to the reports read.
If I read purely the Guardian my opinions would be different to if I only read An Phoblacht, therefore I read multiple sources and make my own opinion.

Dyr · 10-04-2013 11:05PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

Who's back pedaling, I'm not, I know nothing about MT or AR other than what I read,.

What you read in the newspapers or what you read?

You've never read any of her articles? Never watched any of her hundreds of interviews or speeches? Haven't read her biographies or the biographies of people who were close to her? Haven't figured out the difference between legitimate media comment about a public figure who expressed very clearly what she was about over decades and a few tabloid articles about some headeball who got shot?

paddy147 · 10-04-2013 11:11PM

Can someone just dig a hole,stick her in it and be done with this farce please.

Far more important things going on in the world than talking about some auld dead biddy.

She lived,she died,shes going into a hole in the ground.

End of.

Spook_ie · 10-04-2013 11:16PM

Bambi wrote: »

What you read in the newspapers or what you read?

You've never read any of her articles? Never watched any of her hundreds of interviews or speeches? Haven't read her biographies or the biographies of people who were close to her? Haven't figured out the difference between legitimate media comment about a public figure who expressed very clearly what she was about over decades and a few tabloid articles about some headeball who got shot?

Oh you mean her speeches where she said "Hey I'm an evil bitch "

or her autobiography where she wrote "Hey I'm an evil bitch"

or the legitimate media comments of "Hey she's an evil bitch"

Funny enough, nope never read or saw any of those, so I suppose that's why I don't think of her as an evil bitch as some on this thread would but rather as a politician faced with a choice of wrong or less wrong in many situations

Annasopra · 11-04-2013 12:29AM

Well done Glenda Jackson MP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

PaddyORuadhan · 11-04-2013 12:39AM

To those that say we shouldn't speak ill of the dead.

Why should we give here political descendents the free space to praise her and her ideas without challenge. The situation we face today is because governments around the world subscribed up to the ideology that is known as what ... you guessed it THATCHERISM.....

She was a vile woman, whose crimes against humanity should have had her spending her final days in a cell and not in the Ritz. So yes I have gotten satisfaction from her passing.

The best sum up of the celebrations I saw was on a sign at one of the british parties

Thatcher is Dead
Thatcherism is Alive
Today we dance
Tomorrow we organise.

space_man · 11-04-2013 01:00AM

mango salsa wrote: »

Well done Glenda Jackson MP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Unlike Glendo Jackso, Thatcher represented the backbone of respectable middle England as this clip clearly demonstrates.

jd83 · 11-04-2013 01:12AM

R.I.P

end of the road · 11-04-2013 01:26AM

mango salsa wrote: »

Well done Glenda Jackson MP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

now theres a politician who i would be prowd to have serving me

K-9 · 11-04-2013 01:28AM

Having thought a bit more about it one thing struck me:

Just thinking about the inconsistencies of the left, compassion and celebrating her death, I don't see much difference from those using the hunger strikers as an achievement on her part.

Thatcher is lauded as heroic in sticking to her beliefs, 10 hunger strikers died for their beliefs, the ultimate sacrifice, yet get derided by those same people lauding Thatcher for belief and seeing things through.

Both sides aren't any better, exactly the same.

Galwayguy35 · 11-04-2013 01:53AM

Was watching Sky News, she was hated by a lot of her own people and even today alot of them are glad that she is gone.

I was only around 7 at the time of the Hunger Strikes but I remember watching it on the news and some of the things she was saying and doing at the time only served to drive young lads into the IRA.

And IMO she had a strong dislike for anyone South of the border as well, she tolerated Fitzgerald because he wouldn't disagree with her.

Mardy Bum · 11-04-2013 02:02AM

K-9 wrote: »

Thatcher is lauded as heroic in sticking to her beliefs, .

The unbiased people who used such language as "strong convictions etc", really meant "lunatic" I thought. They just wanted to sound respectful.

K-9 · 11-04-2013 02:12AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Was watching Sky News, she was hated by a lot of her own people and even today alot of them are glad that she is gone.

I was only around 7 at the time of the Hunger Strikes but I remember watching it on the news and some of the things she was saying and doing at the time only served to drive young lads into the IRA.

And IMO she had a strong dislike for anyone South of the border as well, she tolerated Fitzgerald because he wouldn't disagree with her.

One of my first political memories was hearing Bobby Sands had died, didn't have a clue who he was, just my Dad saw it as significant.

Watched N.I. tear itself apart over the next 10 years, was Maggie responsible for that? Probably a part, if we'd a Major in charge, probably more chance of talks. She wasn't open to talks till her last days.

The same could be said of Haughey though he did set up talks. Garret had to talk her round after Haughey, and he did that well.

Galwayguy35 · 11-04-2013 02:39AM

K-9 wrote: »

One of my first political memories was hearing Bobby Sands had died, didn't have a clue who he was, just my Dad saw it as significant.

Watched N.I. tear itself apart over the next 10 years, was Maggie responsible for that? Probably a part, if we'd a Major in charge, probably more chance of talks. She wasn't open to talks till her last days.

The same could be said of Haughey though he did set up talks. Garret had to talk her round after Haughey, and he did that well.

Well she basically told the Government here to butt out at the time of the Hunger Strikes because Bobby Sands was a "British citizen".

That's a fairly provocative thing to say about a man who was Irish and a Republican.

I think the working relationship between herself and CJH was always going to be somewhat strained at best.

I remember everytime she mentioned him he was "Mr Hockey"

FanadMan · 11-04-2013 02:47AM

Ok, she screwed up relations with the North for years and f*ucked over the miners in the UK. Who really cares now? She is dead - give it up folks!

K-9 · 11-04-2013 02:56AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well she basically told the Government here to butt out at the time of the Hunger Strikes because Bobby Sands was a "British citizen".

That's a fairly provocative thing to say about a man who was Irish and a Republican.

I think the working relationship between herself and CJH was always going to be somewhat strained at best.

I remember everytime she mentioned him he was "Mr Hockey"

Garret worked her out best, the Anglo Irish Agreement was a major achievement. God knows how he did it, but he got common ground.

end of the road · 11-04-2013 03:14AM

FanadMan wrote: »

Ok, she screwed up relations with the North for years and f*ucked over the miners in the UK.

yes, well done

FanadMan wrote: »

Who really cares now?

the people still feeling the effects of her rein of terror do and those of us who are sympathetic to those effected. you don't care so why bother asking who else does?

FanadMan wrote: »

She is dead

your not serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FanadMan wrote: »

give it up folks!

or what? what are you going to do about it? you going to make us give it up? no didn't think so, how about you give up telling the rest of us what to do? and let the rest of us get on with caring or not caring.

TwoShedsJackson · 11-04-2013 07:48AM

dupeters wrote: »

thatcher is dead. let her family grieve in peace i am a republican and proud of it but i was raised not to speak ill of the dead.
this woman was a mother and a grandmother who happened to be irelands worst enemy,but in saying that her failings should be left for another day. history will judge her and her party for what they did and didn't do during our darkest hour. but i think we should be respectful of a fallen enemy.

No you shouldn't, if you don't want to. Have a read of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette - this ridiculous pattern of instantly elevating to sainthood a public figure upon their death is utterly ridiculous.

Thatcher affected the lives of millions, for the worse in 99% of those cases, and so those she has affected have the right to voice their opinion.

Rascasse · 11-04-2013 08:26AM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

No you shouldn't, if you don't want to. Have a read of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette - this ridiculous pattern of instantly elevating to sainthood a public figure upon their death is utterly ridiculous.

Thatcher affected the lives of millions, for the worse in 99% of those cases, and so those she has affected have the right to voice their opinion.

It's not elevating her to sainthood, it's more that the more 'death parties' are just in very bad taste. By all means have an informed discussion about her policies and legacy but there is no need for parties, spraying bucks fizz or shouting insults. Frankly it says more about them than it does about her.

Also, your 99% comment is clearly nonsense. Firstly she was elected 3 times, without any real change in the vote each time, and would likely have been voted in a fourth had she not been knifed by Howe/Tarzan et al. Hardly the actions of a disgruntled or angry electorate. Secondly, most of those protesting/partying are either kids or seasoned hard left, morning star/socialist worker rent-a-mob types and not the average man and woman who lived through her tenure.

Noreen1 · 11-04-2013 08:39AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Was watching Sky News, she was hated by a lot of her own people and even today alot of them are glad that she is gone.

I was only around 7 at the time of the Hunger Strikes but I remember watching it on the news and some of the things she was saying and doing at the time only served to drive young lads into the IRA.

And IMO she had a strong dislike for anyone South of the border as well, she tolerated Fitzgerald because he wouldn't disagree with her.

I'm glad you said that.
I vaguely remember some media coverage from around that time where an offensive comment she made about the Irish caused some heated debate.
I can't remember the comment, and a quick general search on google hasn't produced any results, but I grew up with the impression that Mrs T has nothing but contempt for the Irish people as a result.

Rob A. Bank · 11-04-2013 08:40AM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Have a read of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette - this ridiculous pattern of instantly elevating to sainthood a public figure upon their death is utterly ridiculous.

I agree, and listening to the Tories trying to start the canonization process is truely nauseating.

Strangely.... they seem to skip over the fact that it was the Tory Party and not the electorate who kicked her sorry ass out of office !

TwoShedsJackson · 11-04-2013 09:19AM

Rascasse wrote: »

It's not elevating her to sainthood, it's more that the more 'death parties' are just in very bad taste. By all means have an informed discussion about her policies and legacy but there is no need for parties, spraying bucks fizz or shouting insults. Frankly it says more about them than it does about her.

Also, your 99% comment is clearly nonsense. Firstly she was elected 3 times, without any real change in the vote each time, and would likely have been voted in a fourth had she not been knifed by Howe/Tarzan et al. Hardly the actions of a disgruntled or angry electorate. Secondly, most of those protesting/partying are either kids or seasoned hard left, morning star/socialist worker rent-a-mob types and not the average man and woman who lived through her tenure.

This attitude that no ill can be spoken of the dead is ridiculous. I agree that the 'death parties' are in poor taste, but I also believe that living in a democracy those people have a right to free expression, which they are practicing. Do you disagree?

The 99% comment refers to those affected by her heartless slash and burn style of politics. No relation to the percentage that voted (or did not vote) for her.

A person's right to an opinion is not invalidated by their age or whether or not they lived through the tenure of the person in question. Nor is the opinion of the hard left or socialist types invalidated just because you don't agree with them.

Happyman42 · 11-04-2013 09:50AM

getz wrote: »

argentina illegally invaded and occupied the british falklands, a act of war, not only was it right legally to sink the belgrano ,if the UK had been capable then, it would have been in their right to attack military targets on the argentine mainland,

Rascasse wrote: »

It's not elevating her to sainthood, it's more that the more 'death parties' are just in very bad taste. By all means have an informed discussion about her policies and legacy but there is no need for parties, spraying bucks fizz or shouting insults. Frankly it says more about them than it does about her.

Also, your 99% comment is clearly nonsense. Firstly she was elected 3 times, without any real change in the vote each time, and would likely have been voted in a fourth had she not been knifed by Howe/Tarzan et al. Hardly the actions of a disgruntled or angry electorate. Secondly, most of those protesting/partying are either kids or seasoned hard left, morning star/socialist worker rent-a-mob types and not the average man and woman who lived through her tenure.

I'm in my 50's so not part of the typical 'social media set' generally referred to in the media, but I am heavily involved in it nonetheless.
What I love about FB, Twitter, sites like these is that they have given back true freedom of expression and will become the primary driver of politics in the future. That is why the establishment is desperately trying to control and silence it. Yes there are times when it sinks into bad taste, but 'bad taste' has never been a problem to right wing media in pre-internet days, ('Gotcha', anti-Irish rants, the demonisation of Liverpool supporters, it's an endless list0
Now that the public have a democratic and free platform to express themselves the sham 'democrats' are up in arms about it.
You have the right to your opinion, THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE, you have no rights to supress.
Personally, I couldn't give a toss about what you think is 'bad taste' but your objection to it is noted.

Fratton Fred · 11-04-2013 09:59AM

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm glad you said that.
I vaguely remember some media coverage from around that time where an offensive comment she made about the Irish caused some heated debate.
I can't remember the comment, and a quick general search on google hasn't produced any results, but I grew up with the impression that Mrs T has nothing but contempt for the Irish people as a result.

Ive asked several times for people to provide evidence she was anti Irish, but so far none has emerged other than her handling of the hungerstrikes, but if letting four men die means she is anti Irish, then I guess she is less anti Irish than Gerry Adams.

If she was, then fair enough as she appeared to be anti anyone outside her immediate ideal social group, but this anti Irish bit just seems to be another bit of "if we say it enough times it must be true"'.

Grandpa Hassan · 11-04-2013 10:21AM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

The 99% comment refers to those affected by her heartless slash and burn style of politics. No relation to the percentage that voted (or did not vote) for her.

.

Yes, a lot of people were affected. By the necessary reforms that were required post IMF bailout, 3 day weeks, intransigent unions etc.

Just like '99%' of people in Ireland now being affected by Enda's execution of reforms post IMF bailout. The difference is that Thatcher had the balls to actually execute said reforms effectively. Unlike subsequent politicians

space_man · 11-04-2013 10:31AM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

This attitude that no ill can be spoken of the dead is ridiculous. I agree that the 'death parties' are in poor taste, but I also believe that living in a democracy those people have a right to free expression, which they are practicing. Do you disagree?

The 99% comment refers to those affected by her heartless slash and burn style of politics. No relation to the percentage that voted (or did not vote) for her.

A person's right to an opinion is not invalidated by their age or whether or not they lived through the tenure of the person in question. Nor is the opinion of the hard left or socialist types invalidated just because you don't agree with them.

i disagree with 80% of what she did and specially the vindictive way she went about it. (that said some of her policies were absolutely necessary in order to revitalise the UK economy. eg breaking union power, deregulation & privitisation of state monopolies, getting tough with the EU).

part of the reasons for the apparent nostalgia is the current dreadful state of the economy and politics in general. in times of crisis it's only natural to look for strong leadership and to leaders with vision and conviction.

TwoShedsJackson · 11-04-2013 11:27AM

space_man wrote: »

part of the reasons for the apparent nostalgia is the current dreadful state of the economy and politics in general. in times of crisis it's only natural to look for strong leadership and to leaders with vision and conviction.

I agree that it's natural but I won't bother Godwinning the thread with examples of where that has got some countries in the past.

space_man · 11-04-2013 12:45PM

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I agree that it's natural but I won't bother Godwinning the thread with examples of where that has got some countries in the past.

indeed history is littered with examples of such "saviours" that more often than not ended very badly.
as the old saying goes people need to "be careful what they wish for" (and elect to power).:(

old hippy · 11-04-2013 12:48PM

extra gravy wrote: »

Does anyone else think it'd be interesting if the posters who are critical of Thatcher gave us some idea about what they would have done differently if they had been in her position?

No, that kind of what if and straw (wo)man type of thing is not interesting in the slightest.

Lingua Franca · 11-04-2013 01:39PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If she was, then fair enough as she appeared to be anti anyone outside her immediate ideal social group, but this anti Irish bit just seems to be another bit of "if we say it enough times it must be true"'.

She really was. She was pro-USA, thinking of them as Britain's dumb cousins, and she also liked other white, English speaking, British acting commonwealth countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand. That was it. She openly hated Europeans, blaming all of Europe except Britain for both world wars.

You can find her own words and her family, colleagues and peers talking about it here if you can view iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01s4f88/Margaret_Thatcher_Prime_Minister/

The ex Aussie Pm accusing her of racism against asians is probably in every newspaper today so you can find that for yourself.

Maggie Thatcher death discussion thread - Mod rules in first post

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