Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

Czarcasm · 07-04-2013 06:05PM

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

You can't, but the general attitude tells you a lot. I can generally see very easily whether someone means 'I need some chocolate ice-cream' kind of down or 'I've been thinking about killing myself' kind of down. It depends on the person, but when people say things like 'oh, I was really down last month after Ryan dumped me, but I'm grand now', I think it's safe to assume they're not suffering from clinical depression.

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

I personally am very good at seeing the difference, I don't know whether that's because I suffer from depression myself and see the signs or I'm perceptive. I'm a teacher and have got help for several students who other teachers thought were just whiny teenagers. The average person, I agree with you, isn't good at all at seeing it, which is why people who are genuinely desperate are brushed off as moany holes.

I've read through all 30 pages so far of this discussion and I've seen posters be smug, condescending, and self righteous (even Odysseus near got bogged down in the e-penis measuring before they came good with some great information), but the above, jesus...

I came into this thread hoping to learn more about understanding suicide and mental illness. I learned nothing, and I don't think anyone reading this thread so far will have learned anything other than this thread is one almighty píssing contest with posters who want to listen, and posters who want to understand and be educated, being pretty much told "oh you don't want to listen and you're too stupid to understand anyway".

I get that people suffering from depression are suffering under a weight of constant negativity, but fcuk me, being a self righteous, condescending prick, has nothing to do with depression or mental health, that's simply called an attitude problem.

CillianL · 07-04-2013 06:07PM

Donal Walsh is brave and inspiring

Suicide is a rejection of the life we've been granted with and the challenges one is faced with.

Odysseus · 07-04-2013 06:09PM

CaraMay wrote: »

Yeah well that seems easy but the impression portrayed here by people who feel hard done by is that you can ask someone 50 times if they are ok and they yes but if you don't ask them 51 times or at a time they want to be asked then you are a useless friend / relative. It's easy to say people have to listen but if people insist on acting like all is ok then people start to assume all is ok. It's very complicated

If a person does not want to acknowledge they have a problem there is very little one can do about it.

What gves you that impression, I not picking that up re: friend/relative.

However, such things are very complicated.

When I say listen, I mean listen not giving advice, not telling them things aren't really like that etc.

To sit and really listen to a person and see things from their perspective is far from easy. Most people jump straight into advise or fix it mode.I even know plenty of professions who can't just sit and listen to a person.

07-04-2013 06:16PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I've read through all 30 pages so far of this discussion and I've seen posters be smug, condescending, and self righteous (even Odysseus near got bogged down in the e-penis measuring before they came good with some great information), but the above, jesus...

I came into this thread hoping to learn more about understanding suicide and mental illness. I learned nothing, and I don't think anyone reading this thread so far will have learned anything other than this thread is one almighty píssing contest with posters who want to listen, and posters who want to understand and be educated, being pretty much told "oh you don't want to listen and you're too stupid to understand anyway".

I get that people suffering from depression are suffering under a weight of constant negativity, but fcuk me, being a self righteous, condescending prick, has nothing to do with depression or mental health, that's simply called an attitude problem.

Sorry if it sounds arrogant, but I am very perceptive. I am. I've spent my entire life with people coming up to me saying 'but how on earth did you KNOW??' I'm not going to apologise for that, I'm going to use it in the best way I can.

I've stepped in when students were about to be suspended for lack of attendance and written off as spoiled, moany sh*ts and recommended that they see a psychiatrist. One young man who I insisted got professional help was sectioned shortly afterwards and as far as I know, is still under the care of doctors. I was the only person in the entire place who spotted how sick he was. So sorry if I consider myself to be more tuned into this than the average person, but I don't think my intuition has ever let me down. I'm not a professional and would never claim to be, but I think my own experiences mean I see things others don't notice or write off as nothing.

Steve O · 07-04-2013 06:23PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I came into this thread hoping to learn more about understanding suicide and mental illness.

Not really though.

tomthetank · 07-04-2013 06:23PM

I'd like to hear more about the differences between your "run-of-the-mill" down day / week / month, versus clinical depression.

Because I've sure as hell gone through horrible phases where a particularly awful event -say, family trauma, break up or job loss has stunted me to the point where I couldn't get out of bed, or engage with others, or eat, or feel any kind of joy in life, or verbalise - or even feel the desire to verbalise how I was feeling, where I considered what would happen if I decided to end it all.

I never would, and I never considered this to be "clinical depression" as I'd always emerge out the other side, but I personally find it insulting for such an episode to be dismissed because "everyone goes through that" - or for it to be "proof" that I couldn't possibly understand what real clinical depression must be like.

There's a spectrum here, and there are many classifications and as another poster mentioned, this is not a pissing contest.

Ecce_Agnus_Dei · 07-04-2013 06:24PM

I'm a card-carrying Catholic.

I think all this public outpouring of grief when someone kills themselves is pretty self-gratuitous. It seems suicide funerals exist to serve the needs of those in "grief" (very often the same people who turned their back on the suicide victim) rather than the needs of the deceased's soul.

It must be a pretty awful thing to have to present yourself at the pearly gates having taken your own God-given life. Unless there are some pretty strong mitigating circumstances (such as mental illness); there are very few excuses. But it's not me who'll judge -- it's God whose job that is.

Education is the key to tackling suicide. The more widely read one is; the more exposed you are to all the various different kinds of human grief. The more you realise that your problems aren't that big.

starlings · 07-04-2013 06:27PM

Steve O wrote: »

Not really though.

wow, you must have the intuitive superpowers too.

CaraMay · 07-04-2013 06:29PM

So if someone who is being bullied and comes to you saying I'm fat, I'm ugly and I'm stupid, you can't tell them that's not the case???

Dealing with someone who is severely depressed is way beyond the capabilities of any inexperienced person so I'm saying if you feel unheard, try to understand, it's a skill which is lacking rather than someone not wanting to listen to you.

Steve O · 07-04-2013 06:32PM

starlings wrote: »

wow, you must have the intuitive superpowers too.

No, I can read though.

Corkfeen · 07-04-2013 06:33PM

Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »

I'm a card-carrying Catholic.

I think all this public outpouring of grief when someone kills themselves is pretty self-gratuitous. It seems suicide funerals exist to serve the needs of those in "grief" (very often the same people who turned their back on the suicide victim) rather than the needs of the deceased's soul.

It must be a pretty awful thing to have to present yourself at the pearly gates having taken your own God-given life. Unless there are some pretty strong mitigating circumstances (such as mental illness); there are very few excuses. But it's not me who'll judge -- it's God whose job that is.

Education is the key to tackling suicide. The more widely read one is; the more exposed you are to all the various different kinds of human grief. The more you realise that your problems aren't that big.

Are you really saying that people are suicidal because they're not widely read enough and are unaware that other people suffer? You're claiming that you won't cast judgement but that's exactly what you're doing. Education on the subject is important but not in the way you think it is.

07-04-2013 06:33PM

tomthetank wrote: »

I'd like to hear more about the differences between your "run-of-the-mill" down day / week / month, versus clinical depression.

Because I've sure as hell gone through horrible phases where a particularly awful event -say, family trauma, break up or job loss has stunted me to the point where I couldn't get out of bed, or engage with others, or eat, or feel any kind of joy in life, or verbalise - or even feel the desire to verbalise how I was feeling, where I considered what would happen if I decided to end it all.

I never would, and I never considered this to be "clinical depression" as I'd always emerge out the other side, but I personally find it insulting for such an episode to be dismissed because "everyone goes through that" - or for it to be "proof" that I couldn't possibly understand what real clinical depression must be like.

There's a spectrum here, and there are many classifications and as another poster mentioned, this is not a pissing contest.

I'm not a professional but clinical depression doesn't necessarily mean you have it all the time. Plenty of people have depression which comes and goes and which is in response to something that happens. You might want to watch that video that was posted here twice - it's really informative and interesting and the professor addresses some of these questions.

DarkJager · 07-04-2013 06:33PM

Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »

I'm a card-carrying Catholic.

I think all this public outpouring of grief when someone kills themselves is pretty self-gratuitous. It seems suicide funerals exist to serve the needs of those in "grief" (very often the same people who turned their back on the suicide victim) rather than the needs of the deceased's soul.

It must be a pretty awful thing to have to present yourself at the pearly gates having taken your own God-given life. Unless there are some pretty strong mitigating circumstances (such as mental illness); there are very few excuses. But it's not me who'll judge -- it's God whose job that is.

Education is the key to tackling suicide. The more widely read one is; the more exposed you are to all the various different kinds of human grief. The more you realise that your problems aren't that big.

That's a very simplistic view but one to be expected from people simple enough to believe they'll be arriving at "pearly gates" when they die. Newsflash: the only thing that happens when you die is you cease to exist and your body will rot in a box in the ground. That's reality but if an almighty sky spook waiting to judge you in the clouds makes you feel any better then go ahead and delude yourself with that.

Odysseus · 07-04-2013 06:39PM

tomthetank wrote: »

I'd like to hear more about the differences between your "run-of-the-mill" down day / week / month, versus clinical depression.

Because I've sure as hell gone through horrible phases where a particularly awful event -say, family trauma, break up or job loss has stunted me to the point where I couldn't get out of bed, or engage with others, or eat, or feel any kind of joy in life, or verbalise - or even feel the desire to verbalise how I was feeling, where I considered what would happen if I decided to end it all.

I never would, and I never considered this to be "clinical depression" as I'd always emerge out the other side, but I personally find it insulting for such an episode to be dismissed because "everyone goes through that" - or for it to be "proof" that I couldn't possibly understand what real clinical depression must be like.

There's a spectrum here, and there are many classifications and as another poster mentioned, this is not a pissing contest.

Have a look at either the ICD-10 or the DSM for the current criteria for depressive episodes or states. These are the current classification that we work from.

I am not recommending self-diagnosis but if a persons experience falls with the various criteria set down in the diagnostic manuals, well then they are currently experiencing a depressive episode.

Just goggle ICD-10 depressive episode and this should give you a good starting point on making a distinction between the two.

I would like to see more people made aware of these criteria as there are people who are depressed but they are actually unaware of it.

Steve O · 07-04-2013 06:39PM

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

I'm not a professional but clinical depression doesn't necessarily mean you have it all the time. Plenty of people have depression which comes and goes and which is in response to something that happens. You might want to watch that video that was posted here twice - it's really informative and interesting and the professor addresses some of these questions.

You can go through a serious high some days, then it is like a train hits you, it really is unexplainable. That video is brilliant in that the guy points out the shear complexity of it.

jigglypuffstuff · 07-04-2013 06:40PM

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

Sorry if it sounds arrogant, but I am very perceptive. I am. I've spent my entire life with people coming up to me saying 'but how on earth did you KNOW??' I'm not going to apologise for that, I'm going to use it in the best way I can.

I've stepped in when students were about to be suspended for lack of attendance and written off as spoiled, moany sh*ts and recommended that they see a psychiatrist. One young man who I insisted got professional help was sectioned shortly afterwards and as far as I know, is still under the care of doctors. I was the only person in the entire place who spotted how sick he was. So sorry if I consider myself to be more tuned into this than the average person, but I don't think my intuition has ever let me down. I'm not a professional and would never claim to be, but I think my own experiences mean I see things others don't notice or write off as nothing.

Well now im going to inform you of a few truths that i was going to omit but seeing as we are being honest and open here

I helped my ex through 5 straight years of -
bipolar disorder, depression,anxiety,bulimia, anorexia and also something is rather not state here PM if you wish that was from 15-20

I helped a sibling through anxiety and my cousin the same

Ive helped my parent through depression and OCD

Ive helped myself overcome OCD and milder case of depression (not feeling down)

not to mention the numerous friends through their own various issues and problems

Not to mention the schizophrenics related and the 3 nervous breakdowns in my family that i had numerous talks with and was present for many episodes including a breakdown

All by doing one thing - listening for hours, days and yes years on end (and giving sound advice)

I am stating this for one simple reason - Earlier you wrote me off and said i knew nothing of mental health and didnt know what it felt like, had no experience, and had more or less no knowledge of what im talking about.

Ive seen things others didn't see, i spoke about things others feared, i seen my partner cut herself i see damn near the worst of the worst, families torn from these issues, ive see things to hurtful to even describe here

Im saying all of this now just to let you know, just because someone has a certain opinion of something I wouldnt be so quick to categorize them with people who dont understand because ive been seeing things like this as long as i can remember! Im not saying this in any bad way either

And I respect the fact you helped others when they were often brushed off by the majority also!! Well done to you

Ecce_Agnus_Dei · 07-04-2013 06:42PM

DarkJager wrote: »

That's a very simplistic view but one to be expected from people simple enough to believe they'll be arriving at "pearly gates" when they die. Newsflash: the only thing that happens when you die is you cease to exist and your body will rot in a box in the ground. That's reality but if an almighty sky spook waiting to judge you in the clouds makes you feel any better then go ahead and delude yourself with that.

I understand you're probably a hip-cool-with-it-atheist, but why the chippyness and bigotry?

What's your ambition in life? To have a good time? To experience as much pleasure as possible before death?

The continuum of life from conception to death is a mystery. I can tell you for sure that I didn't create myself. I can also tell you for sure that God sent His Son to walk the earth 2000 years ago (no doubt you'll attempt to deny this); and from His presence, the New Testament came into being. Humanity cannot and never has known everything. We must strive to do good in our day-to-day lives and live according to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

If you wish to believe that when you die, you simply "cease to exist" because you read this in some airport book written by Dawkins or someone; that fine. There is lower hanging fruit for us Christians to work at evangelising.

07-04-2013 06:43PM

CaraMay wrote: »

So if someone who is being bullied and comes to you saying I'm fat, I'm ugly and I'm stupid, you can't tell them that's not the case???

Dealing with someone who is severely depressed is way beyond the capabilities of any inexperienced person so I'm saying if you feel unheard, try to understand, it's a skill which is lacking rather than someone not wanting to listen to you.

That's all well and good when you keep asking if the person is OK and they keep saying yes. You're right, that does happen and only someone with the patience of a saint is going to keep at it.

My point was that I made it very clear all wasn't OK and people just didn't want to believe it. They can't comprehend that the person who was laughing yesterday is actually feeling really desperate inside. I totally understand that, nobody really wants to believe that a friend/colleague/family member is that depressed because it's awkward and uncomfortable. I've been on the other side of it. It's human nature to essentially want to say 'ah it'll be grand!'

DarkJager · 07-04-2013 06:48PM

Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote:

I understand you're probably a hip-cool-with-it-atheist, but why the chippyness and bigotry?

What's your ambition in life? To have a good time? To experience as much pleasure as possible before death?

The continuum of life from conception to death is a mystery. I can tell you for sure that I didn't create myself. I can also tell you for sure that God sent His Son to walk the earth 2000 years ago (no doubt you'll attempt to deny this); and from His presence, the New Testament came into being. Humanity cannot and never has known everything. We must strive to do good in our day-to-day lives and live according to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

If you wish to believe that when you die, you simply "cease to exist" because you read this in some airport book written by Dawkins or someone; that fine. There is lower hanging fruit for us Christians to work at evangelising.

The onus is on you to prove what you claim. Bring me proof that something you read about in a book that happened 2000 years ago actually happened. Bring me solid proof that you have personally contacted someone from the afterlife to confirm that they still exist. Until then your post is simply the usual nonsensical **** you religious types like to spew. Ill take my logical outlook over your deluded ideology any day.

07-04-2013 06:48PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Well now im going to inform you of a few truths that i was going to omit but seeing as we are being honest and open here

I helped my ex through 5 straight years of -
bipolar disorder, depression,anxiety,bulimia, anorexia and also something is rather not state here PM if you wish that was from 15-20

I helped a sibling through anxiety and my cousin the same

Ive helped my parent through depression and OCD

Ive helped myself overcome OCD and milder case of depression (not feeling down)

not to mention the numerous friends through their own various issues and problems

Not to mention the schizophrenics related and the 3 nervous breakdowns in my family that i had numerous talks with and was present for many episodes including a breakdown

All by doing one thing - listening for hours, days and yes years on end (and giving sound advice)

I am stating this for one simple reason - Earlier you wrote me off and said i knew nothing of mental health and didnt know what it felt like, had no experience, and had more or less no knowledge of what im talking about.

Ive seen things others didn't see, i spoke about things others feared, i seen my partner cut herself i see damn near the worst of the worst, families torn from these issues, ive see things to hurtful to even describe here

Im saying all of this now just to let you know, just because someone has a certain opinion of something I wouldnt be so quick to categorize them with people who dont understand because ive been seeing things like this as long as i can remember! Im not saying this in any bad way either

And I respect the fact you helped others when they were often brushed off by the majority also!! Well done to you

Look, it's great that you were there for people and listened, but the fact remains that a lot of what you posted indicated a scary lack of knowledge about mental health and the mindset of depressed and suicidal people....stuff about people having the 'choice' to be depressed, suicide being selfish etc. Seeing or knowing someone suffering from a mental illness is not the same as understanding it or how it actually feels. I grew up with various family members with different mental illnesses and I certainly listened and felt sorry for them and tried to say the right things, but I hadn't the slightest idea of how it actually feels until I experienced it myself.

Czarcasm · 07-04-2013 06:48PM

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

Sorry if it sounds arrogant, but I am very perceptive. I am. I've spent my entire life with people coming up to me saying 'but how on earth did you KNOW??' I'm not going to apologise for that, I'm going to use it in the best way I can.

I've stepped in when students were about to be suspended for lack of attendance and written off as spoiled, moany sh*ts and recommended that they see a psychiatrist. One young man who I insisted got professional help was sectioned shortly afterwards and as far as I know, is still under the care of doctors. I was the only person in the entire place who spotted how sick he was. So sorry if I consider myself to be more tuned into this than the average person, but I don't think my intuition has ever let me down. I'm not a professional and would never claim to be, but I think my own experiences mean I see things others don't notice or write off as nothing.

It wasn't your intuition I was drawing attention to at all, we can all be intuitive in our own ways. The straw breaking the camel's back was when you said it was safe to assume anything, about anybody.

You'd imagine given your experience and your profession that you would understand that people can be very adept at covering up their problems, that they will tell you exactly what they think you want to hear, so when somebody says I feel shìt today and, an hour later says I feel great today, safe to assume they're not suffering from clinical depression is it?

I think if I was you I would check my perception of myself tbh. I'm not saying you're projecting, but you're coming off a bit like the blind leading the blind. Just because you have come to an understanding of your own mental illness does not mean you could even possibly begin to understand anyone elses.

Ecce_Agnus_Dei · 07-04-2013 06:51PM

DarkJager wrote: »

The onus is on you to prove what you claim. Bring me proof that something you read about in a book that happened 2000 years ago actually happened. Bring me solid proof that you have personally contacted someone from the afterlife to confirm that they still exist. Until then your post is simply the usual nonsensical **** you religious types like to spew at any chance.

Ah... One of those! A Bible-denyer.

And a chippy one at that.

I have never "personally contacted someone from the afterlife". Have you?

And there was me thinking that Limerick was a holy place. Did you have the benefit of a Catholic education yourself?

ladysarah · 07-04-2013 06:54PM

very very sad I can only imagine how the boys feels. god comfort him. He has nio undetstanding on suicide but who does at 16

07-04-2013 06:54PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It wasn't your intuition I was drawing attention to at all, we can all be intuitive in our own ways. The straw breaking the camel's back was when you said it was safe to assume anything, about anybody.

You'd imagine given your experience and your profession that you would understand that people can be very adept at covering up their problems, that they will tell you exactly what they think you want to hear, so when somebody says I feel shìt today and, an hour later says I feel great today, safe to assume they're not suffering from clinical depression is it?

I should have been clearer about what I meant by that statement, my fault. I most certainly didn't mean it was safe to assume anything about anybody. I meant when someone is using 'depressed' as a synonym for sad/frustrated/fed up in a context where it's obvious they don't mean clinically depressed.
'OMG so depressed, no red tops left in my size!!!! #gutted' kind of thing or they're 'devastated' that their football team lost. Not when you ask how someone is and they say they feel sh*t. I'd always be concerned by that.

jigglypuffstuff · 07-04-2013 06:56PM

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

Look, it's great that you were there for people and listened, but the fact remains that a lot of what you posted indicated a scary lack of knowledge about mental health and the mindset of depressed and suicidal people....stuff about people having the 'choice' to be depressed, suicide being selfish etc. Seeing or knowing someone suffering from a mental illness is not the same as understanding it or how it actually feels. I grew up with various family members with different mental illnesses and I certainly listened and felt sorry for them and tried to say the right things, but I hadn't the slightest idea of how it actually feels until I experienced it myself.

Perhaps you missed the part where i said I too suffered from depression?, so if all you are basing the 'idea' that you know alot about the subject on is you own experience from feeling them emotions then you haven't really got any more experience than I do

Remember what i posted earlier is my opinion, opinions are not facts! I have religious beliefs but i also study biological psychology which teaches evolution So i keep the two separate, one is my opinion the other is fact

Also I said nothing about people having a choice to be depressed I said the act of suicide is a choice, theres a big difference

So let me ask you now that Ive clarified that : what exactly do you know about my knowledge of mental health?

Lyra Fangs · 07-04-2013 06:59PM

Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »

Ah... One of those! A Bible-denyer.

And a chippy one at that.

I have never "personally contacted someone from the afterlife". Have you?

And there was me thinking that Limerick was a holy place. Did you have the benefit of a Catholic education yourself?

I really don't think there's any need to be dragging religion into this thread. In saying that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and they should not be insulted for holding such beliefs and I'm referring to the religious and non-religious alike!

Czarcasm · 07-04-2013 07:03PM

Steve O wrote: »

Not really though.

See, this is the kind of petty, condescending, point scoring crap I was talking about. You don't know jack shìt about me or why I would seek to try and understand more about suicide and mental illness, but you assume to know my motives from one post alone.

Well done Sir, I hope the three thanks you got for that crap helped to reinforce your inflated intellect and massage your smug ego.

I'm still waiting for you to contribute something useful to the thread.

07-04-2013 07:04PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think if I was you I would check my perception of myself tbh. I'm not saying you're projecting, but you're coming off a bit like the blind leading the blind. Just because you have come to an understanding of your own mental illness does not mean you could even possibly begin to understand anyone elses.

I think my self perception is fine. I've been told the same by plenty of professionals, so don't worry about that. I read people and situations exceptionally well, that's all. I know it sounds arrogant to say it which is why I usually don't, and I try not to give unsolicited advice, but it's something people quickly notice about me, no more to say.

jim_beam · 07-04-2013 07:10PM

im sure this 16 year old is a great guy and i deeply sympathise with him for the terrible disease he has but if i am to comment on his views on suicide alone and exclude all other details about the young man , i have to say he is at best misinformed if not ignorant and at worst , insensitive and crass

he put himself out there as some kind of wise counsel on the issue of suicide and he is anything but , what he said does nothing for those who suffer with mental illness , frankly , it does harm

Steve O · 07-04-2013 07:12PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

See, this is the kind of petty, condescending, point scoring crap I was talking about. You don't know jack shìt about me or why I would seek to try and understand more about suicide and mental illness, but you assume to know my motives from one post alone.

Well done Sir, I hope the three thanks you got for that crap helped to reinforce your inflated intellect and massage your smug ego.

I'm still waiting for you to contribute something useful to the thread.

No you see, I will engage with you when you have something constructive to say. The only posts you have made in contribution, is to state that the people whom have quite rightly pointed out what the boy said was wrong they were still sympathetic. Instead of insulting everyone in the thread, point out all of the so-called "smug, condescending, and self righteous" posts up until your own.

Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

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